J2b-L283

[elflock]

I mean I have nothing against the label African

You obviously seem to have something against that.

There is nothing wrong with the statement "African derived Balkan E1b-V13" or one could also say "European subclade of African E1b". It's factually correct. E1b-L618 is an Ancestral African derived patrilineage and was picked up by farmers en route to Europe. It represents a minor African patrilineage signal in farmers.

J-L283 is a CHG-related steppe patrilineage and its quaternary ancestor, the oldest "J2b2" sample, is a Caucasus Hunter Gatherer from Kotias Klde. The dynamics are totally different to E1b-L618 and its path to Europe. The Caucasus is a transcontonental region of which a part of it is located in Europe and the other part borders continental Europe. 

CHG ancestry is attested in Eastern Europe since at least the Mesolithic and it did contribute autosomally and uniparentally since then in different proportions to populations of the dry steppe. The oldest J2b-L283 sample is a Core Yamnaya sample from the Western Steppe, Moldova. We have older aDNA attestation of J-L283 than E1b-V13 so that last sentence doesn't make much sense. As is labeling J2b2 or J-L283 "Middleastern".

E-L618 likely arose in the Levant and no, there is no African signal among the farmers.
...
And the CHG ancestry you are talking about in Mesolithic Eastern Europe has absolutely nothing to do with J-L283. In fact, it's getting more and more likely that the path of J-L283 to Europe started at the very EBA or very late Chalcolithic from the North Caucasus.

No African patrilineage signal? M78>L618 is the African patrilineage signal. E1b-M78>L618 just like its brother V22 represents a Northafrican patrlineage. E1b-M78>L618 is not an original farmer lineage. E1b-L618 itself represents a migration from Africa to the Levant. It's a secondarily acquired patrilineage that was overall rare amongst the G2 (H2 etc.) rich farmers.

At the very early EBA? You do realize that with the Moldova sample that's already an inaccurate claim and doesn't work time frame wise. His auDNA is labeled core Yamnaya. When the quaternary ancestor of L283 was hunting and gathering in the Caucasus E1b-M78>L618 was still in Africa. And the Caucasus is, as I have said before, a transcontinental region. 

Saying that CHG-related auDNA and patrilineages are attested in Eastern Europe since the Mesolithic is an important point to make. Regardless if one postulates that L283 was amongst the very earliest or the "later" Neolithic, Early Chalcolithic CHG waves.

[Aspar]

I mean I have nothing against the label African

You obviously seem to have something against that.

There is nothing wrong with the statement "African derived Balkan E1b-V13" or one could also say "European subclade of African E1b". It's factually correct. E1b-L618 is an Ancestral African derived patrilineage and was picked up by farmers en route to Europe. It represents a minor African patrilineage signal in farmers.

J-L283 is a CHG-related steppe patrilineage and its quaternary ancestor, the oldest "J2b2" sample, is a Caucasus Hunter Gatherer from Kotias Klde. The dynamics are totally different to E1b-L618 and its path to Europe. The Caucasus is a transcontonental region of which a part of it is located in Europe and the other part borders continental Europe. 

CHG ancestry is attested in Eastern Europe since at least the Mesolithic and it did contribute autosomally and uniparentally since then in different proportions to populations of the dry steppe. The oldest J2b-L283 sample is a Core Yamnaya sample from the Western Steppe, Moldova. We have older aDNA attestation of J-L283 than E1b-V13 so that last sentence doesn't make much sense. As is labeling J2b2 or J-L283 "Middleastern".

E-L618 likely arose in the Levant and no, there is no African signal among the farmers.
...
And the CHG ancestry you are talking about in Mesolithic Eastern Europe has absolutely nothing to do with J-L283. In fact, it's getting more and more likely that the path of J-L283 to Europe started at the very EBA or very late Chalcolithic from the North Caucasus.

No African patrilineage signal? M78>L618 is the African patrilineage signal. E1b-M78>L618 just like its brother V22 represents a Northafrican patrlineage. E1b-M78>L618 is not an original farmer lineage. E1b-L618 itself represents a migration from Africa to the Levant. It's a secondarily acquired patrilineage that was overall rare amongst the G2 (H2 etc.) rich farmers.

At the very early EBA? You do realize that with the Moldova sample that's already an inaccurate claim and doesn't work time frame wise. His auDNA is labeled core Yamnaya. When the quaternary ancestor of L283 was hunting and gathering in the Caucasus E1b-M78>L618 was still in Africa. And the Caucasus is, as I have said before, a transcontinental region. 

Saying that CHG-related auDNA and patrilineages are attested in Eastern Europe since the Mesolithic is an important point to make. Regardless if one postulates that L283 was amongst the very earliest or the "later" Neolithic, Early Chalcolithic CHG waves.

As I said, I have nothing against the fact that E-V13 has an ancestor that came from Africa and I don't find that inferior at all. I can care less if E-L618 was still in Africa while J-L283's ancestor was 'hunting and gathering in the Caucasus' as you say. Ultimately the first humans came from Africa and from there they spread elsewhere. 

But this is irrelevant and it gives me vibes of haplogroupism in the sense of my haplogroup is better than yours or my haplogroup is whiter than yours. 

No matter what, facts are facts and the fact is E-V13 and it's ancestor are detected in Europe earlier than J-L283 or it's ancestor. And it's nothing to boast of, I'm simply stating the facts. Bringing auDna into discussion seems more like the straw man fallacy since we are discussing haplogroups here not auDna but even then, all of the Neolithic E-L618 samples in Europe are in their majority Anatolian Farmer derived and you can't be more 'European' than that since the modern Europeans genomes are mostly AF derived, lot more than they are CHG derived.

As for EBA or LC introduction of J-L283 in Europe I'm absolutely correct. According to this article the Moldovan J-L283 sample is from 2700 BCE and that's the oldest European J-L283 sample.
There are some interesting points made by enthusiasts who are bigger experts than you and me on the matter and they seem to agree that the first J-L283 people migrated from the Caucasus to the North Pontic steppe around that time.

[elflock]

No African patrilineage signal? M78>L618 is the African patrilineage signal. E1b-M78>L618 just like its brother V22 represents a Northafrican patrlineage. E1b-M78>L618 is not an original farmer lineage. E1b-L618 itself represents a migration from Africa to the Levant. It's a secondarily acquired patrilineage that was overall rare amongst the G2 (H2 etc.) rich farmers.

At the very early EBA? You do realize that with the Moldova sample that's already an inaccurate claim and doesn't work time frame wise. His auDNA is labeled core Yamnaya. When the quaternary ancestor of L283 was hunting and gathering in the Caucasus E1b-M78>L618 was still in Africa. And the Caucasus is, as I have said before, a transcontinental region. 

Saying that CHG-related auDNA and patrilineages are attested in Eastern Europe since the Mesolithic is an important point to make. Regardless if one postulates that L283 was amongst the very earliest or the "later" Neolithic, Early Chalcolithic CHG waves.

...
But this is irrelevant and it gives me vibes of haplogroupism in the sense of my haplogroup is better than yours or my haplogroup is whiter than yours. 
...
Bringing auDna into discussion seems more like the straw man fallacy since we are discussing haplogroups here not auDna but even then, all of the Neolithic E-L618 samples in Europe are in their majority Anatolian Farmer derived and you can't be more 'European' than that since the modern Europeans genomes are mostly AF derived, lot more than they are CHG derived.

As for EBA or LC introduction of J-L283 in Europe I'm absolutely correct. According to this article the Moldovan J-L283 sample is from 2700 BCE and that's the oldest European J-L283 sample.

You're projecting and no one is talking about "whiteness" or "inferiority". That is something you are bringing up, not me and quite frankly something you need to work out with yourself.

CHG auDNA, unlike ANF with E1b-M78>L618, corresponds to J-L283 and/or its ancestors. ANF does not originally correspond to Ancestral Northafrican derived Y-DNA E1b-M78>L618. Stark difference.

EBA entry is a ridiculous claim, not in alignment with aDNA data and that is something Hunter doesn't claim.

[targaryen]

Every single one of those Y-Dnas has been in the Balkans since the Neolithic. 

They have absolutely not. So we're going to make stuff up to try to make a point now? 

The rest is as usual whataboutism hogwash. Won't comment on that.

Haha. What? J2a hasnt been in Europe since way back then?

Please stop the nonsense. You just decided based on nonsensical taxonomy that they're "recent arrivals".

Most of those samples cluster perfectly with Roman Croatians. We've seen before Roman Croatians were overwhelmingly Illyrian + some slight East Med, as did all of Italy, Greece, Albania and all of southern Europe.

[elflock]

Every single one of those Y-Dnas has been in the Balkans since the Neolithic. 

They have absolutely not. So we're going to make stuff up to try to make a point now? 

The rest is as usual whataboutism hogwash. Won't comment on that.

Haha. What? J2a hasnt been in Europe since way back then?

Please stop the nonsense. You just decided based on nonsensical taxonomy that they're "recent arrivals".

Most of those samples cluster perfectly with Roman Croatians. We've seen before Roman Croatians were overwhelmingly Illyrian + some slight East Med, as did all of Italy, Greece, Albania and all of southern Europe.

J2a-M410 is a macrohaplogroup designation just as J2b-M102. There have been several haplogroups under J2a-M410 that came to Europe during the Neolithic, Copper Age (see dry steppe) and LCA-EBA (see Minoans). The branches in question are not Balkan Neolithic derived. Example for a Neolithic continuity in Southeast Europe would be J2a-Y13128. The J2a-L26+ clades in this data set are mainly Anatolian-Aegean derived as is the J1a-PF7264. 

I didn't say these individuals in particular were recent arrivals, for the third time. Them having non-local Y-DNAs but largely Paleo-Balkan auDNA is not a contradiction. You know.