J2b-L283

[targaryen]

@targaryen You're putting words in my mouth. Besides, what you're writing is not a counterargument but whataboutism.

The researchers modelled a lot of those people with Illyrian DNA. How is that "whataboutism"? I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic being obsessed only with Y-DNA.

"Croatian BA/IA" and "Albanian BA/IA" is Illyrian DNA.

[targaryen]

Hvar was an ancient Greek colony, which later became a Roman colony. It wasn't an Illyrian settlement which became a Roman city.

It can't be expected to be similar to a typical Illyrian settlement.

Wait what? You know most Greek colonies were locals? Aristotle wrote for Apollonia that the Greek oligarchs were only a small number of people and most people were Illyrians. Graves proved the same with his words.

"Aristotle describes Apollonia's oligarchy as a small Greek elite class, largely descended from the original colonists, ruling over a largely local Illyrian population.[5]"

[Moeca]

Hvar was an ancient Greek colony, which later became a Roman colony. It wasn't an Illyrian settlement which became a Roman city.

It can't be expected to be similar to a typical Illyrian settlement.

Wait what? You know most Greek colonies were locals? Aristotle wrote for Apollonia that the Greek oligarchs were only a small number of people and most people were Illyrians. Graves proved the same with his words.

"Aristotle describes Apollonia's oligarchy as a small Greek elite class, largely descended from the original colonists, ruling over a largely local Illyrian population.[5]"

Pharos ( Hvar ) was fully Greek from aegean island of Paros from the 6th Century BC

There was no Illyran ( liburnian) on Hvar

Isaa ( Vis ) had only greek traders mixed with Liburnian populace ..................the island traded with the Veneti for over 300 years , trading wine and baltic amber for Grain and glass beads


current investigation is on Brac island to see if there where Greek traders with the liburnian populace
https://www.colorado.edu/classics/brac

have not fully read the article below as of yet
https://www.academia.edu/44357390/The_Ad...Bronze_Age

[targaryen]

Hvar was an ancient Greek colony, which later became a Roman colony. It wasn't an Illyrian settlement which became a Roman city.

It can't be expected to be similar to a typical Illyrian settlement.

Wait what? You know most Greek colonies were locals? Aristotle wrote for Apollonia that the Greek oligarchs were only a small number of people and most people were Illyrians. Graves proved the same with his words.

"Aristotle describes Apollonia's oligarchy as a small Greek elite class, largely descended from the original colonists, ruling over a largely local Illyrian population.[5]"

Pharos ( Hvar ) was fully Greek from aegean island of Paros from the 6th Century BC

There was no Illyran ( liburnian) on Hvar

Isaa ( Vis ) had only greek traders mixed with Liburnian populace ..................the island traded with the Veneti for over 300 years , trading wine and baltic amber for Grain and glass beads


current investigation is on Brac island to see if there where Greek traders with the liburnian populace
https://www.colorado.edu/classics/brac

have not fully read the article below as of yet
https://www.academia.edu/44357390/The_Ad...Bronze_Age

Do you even know what a colony is? Are British colonizers native to India? "British people colonized India. There were no Indians in India. Just Brits" This is the argument you're making.

We have people with Illyrian autosomal DNA, and this guy is saying "there are no Illyrians there"

[Moeca]

Wait what? You know most Greek colonies were locals? Aristotle wrote for Apollonia that the Greek oligarchs were only a small number of people and most people were Illyrians. Graves proved the same with his words.

"Aristotle describes Apollonia's oligarchy as a small Greek elite class, largely descended from the original colonists, ruling over a largely local Illyrian population.[5]"

Pharos ( Hvar ) was fully Greek from aegean island of Paros from the 6th Century BC

There was no Illyran ( liburnian) on Hvar

Isaa ( Vis ) had only greek traders mixed with Liburnian populace ..................the island traded with the Veneti for over 300 years , trading wine and baltic amber for Grain and glass beads


current investigation is on Brac island to see if there where Greek traders with the liburnian populace
https://www.colorado.edu/classics/brac

have not fully read the article below as of yet
https://www.academia.edu/44357390/The_Ad...Bronze_Age

Do you even know what a colony is? Are British colonizers native to India? "British people colonized India. There were no Indians in India. Just Brits" This is the argument you're making.

We have people with Illyrian autosomal DNA, and this guy is saying "there are no Illyrians there"

you need to chat with the archeologists and let them know

they meant this if you checked out the youtube link
COLONY Definition & Meaning - Dictionary.com
a country or territory claimed and forcibly taken control of by a foreign power which sends its own people to settle there

[targaryen]

Pharos ( Hvar ) was fully Greek from aegean island of Paros from the 6th Century BC

There was no Illyran ( liburnian) on Hvar

Isaa ( Vis ) had only greek traders mixed with Liburnian populace ..................the island traded with the Veneti for over 300 years , trading wine and baltic amber for Grain and glass beads


current investigation is on Brac island to see if there where Greek traders with the liburnian populace
https://www.colorado.edu/classics/brac

have not fully read the article below as of yet
https://www.academia.edu/44357390/The_Ad...Bronze_Age

Do you even know what a colony is? Are British colonizers native to India? "British people colonized India. There were no Indians in India. Just Brits" This is the argument you're making.

We have people with Illyrian autosomal DNA, and this guy is saying "there are no Illyrians there"

you need to chat with the archeologists and let them know

they meant this if you checked out the youtube link
COLONY Definition & Meaning - Dictionary.com
a country or territory claimed and forcibly taken control of by a foreign power which sends its own people to settle there

I love how this dude always ignores what I post because it doesn't fit his arguments. 

Are those people that cluster with Croatians "Greeks"? Are the researches using "Croatian IA/BA" and "Albanian IA/BA" to model Greeks?

[Moeca]

Do you even know what a colony is? Are British colonizers native to India? "British people colonized India. There were no Indians in India. Just Brits" This is the argument you're making.

We have people with Illyrian autosomal DNA, and this guy is saying "there are no Illyrians there"

you need to chat with the archeologists and let them know

they meant this if you checked out the youtube link
COLONY Definition & Meaning - Dictionary.com
a country or territory claimed and forcibly taken control of by a foreign power which sends its own people to settle there

I love how this dude always ignores what I post because it doesn't fit his arguments. 

Are those people that cluster with Croatians "Greeks"? Are the researches using "Croatian IA/BA" and "Albanian IA/BA" to model Greeks?

I was referring to the Hvar paper ............are you referring to the 2021 samples ?

[elflock]

@targaryen You're putting words in my mouth. Besides, what you're writing is not a counterargument but whataboutism.

The researchers modelled a lot of those people with Illyrian DNA. How is that "whataboutism"? I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic being obsessed only with Y-DNA.

"Croatian BA/IA" and "Albanian BA/IA" is Illyrian DNA.

This is a thread about a Y-DNA in an anthroforum. Might be a huge shocker but the content of most posts will logically be about Y-DNAs.

No, you're not really doing that. Rather not being able to read thoroughly what I'm saying. As @corrigendum pointed out the settlement was a Greek colony>Imperial Roman era late antiquity development hence not to be expected to show a similar uniparental makeup as mainland Dalmatia (Illyrian BA-IA>Imperial Roman era late antiquity).

The majority of the males carry non-Paleo-Balkan patrilineages, Anatolian or roughly speaking MENA branches of J2a-M410+ and J1a+. There's even one likely African E1b that still has Paleo-Balkan sources for his auDNA. It just shows that they're not recent migrants but have been there long enough to wash most of that Middleastern/Aegean/Northafrican auDNA out. That's about it.

[targaryen]

@targaryen You're putting words in my mouth. Besides, what you're writing is not a counterargument but whataboutism.

The researchers modelled a lot of those people with Illyrian DNA. How is that "whataboutism"? I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic being obsessed only with Y-DNA.

"Croatian BA/IA" and "Albanian BA/IA" is Illyrian DNA.

This is a thread about a Y-DNA in an anthroforum. Might be a huge shocker but the content of most posts will logically be about Y-DNAs.

No, you're not really doing that. Rather not being able to read thoroughly what I'm saying. As @corrigendum pointed out the settlement was a Greek colony>Imperial Roman era late antiquity development hence not to be expected to show a similar uniparental makeup as mainland Dalmatia (Illyrian BA-IA>Imperial Roman era late antiquity).

The majority of the males carry non-Paleo-Balkan patrilineages, Anatolian or roughly speaking MENA branches of J2a-M410+ and J1a+. There's even one likely African E1b that still has Paleo-Balkan sources for his auDNA. It just shows that they're not recent migrants but have been there long enough to wash most of that Middleastern/Aegean/Northafrican auDNA out. That's about it.

Every single one of those Y-Dnas has been in the Balkans since the Neolithic. Can we stop this lame 1 Y DNA = 1 ethnicity nonsense?

We spent years having to convince people that J2B2 was in Yamnaya because only "muh R is Induh-Yuropean". Now we're back to haplobro science.

[elflock]

Every single one of those Y-Dnas has been in the Balkans since the Neolithic. 

They have absolutely not. So we're going to make stuff up to try to make a point now? 

The rest is as usual whataboutism hogwash. Won't comment on that.

[Aspar]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub.  Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans.  There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

Aren't all haplogroups African derived?

I mean I have nothing against the label African, I would rather be that than be associated with white supremacists and racists even though I'm myself of European stock but it's strange calling E-V13 African when it's been in Europe lot longer than J-L283.
Actually E-V13 was already 'European' when J-L283 was likely still 'Caucasian' or 'Middle Eastern'.

[elflock]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub.  Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans.  There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

Aren't all haplogroups African derived?

I mean I have nothing against the label African, I would rather be that than be associated with white supremacists and racists even though I'm myself of European stock but it's strange calling E-V13 African when it's been in Europe lot longer than J-L283.
Actually E-V13 was already 'European' when J-L283 was likely still 'Caucasian' or 'Middle Eastern'.

There is nothing wrong with the statement "African derived Balkan E1b-V13" or one could also say "European subclade of African E1b". It's factually correct. E1b-L618 is an Ancestral African derived patrilineage and was picked up by farmers en route to Europe. It represents a minor African patrilineage signal in farmers.

J-L283 is a CHG-related steppe patrilineage and its quaternary ancestor, the oldest "J2b2" sample, is a Caucasus Hunter Gatherer from Kotias Klde. The dynamics are totally different to E1b-L618 and its path to Europe. The Caucasus is a transcontonental region of which a part of it is located in Europe and the other part borders continental Europe. 

CHG ancestry is attested in Eastern Europe since at least the Mesolithic and it did contribute autosomally and uniparentally since then in different proportions to populations of the dry steppe. The oldest J2b-L283 sample is a Core Yamnaya sample from the Western Steppe, Moldova. We have older aDNA attestation of J-L283 than E1b-V13 so that last sentence doesn't make much sense. As is labeling J2b2 or J-L283 "Middleastern".

[Southpaw]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub.  Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans.  There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

Aren't all haplogroups African derived?

I mean I have nothing against the label African, I would rather be that than be associated with white supremacists and racists even though I'm myself of European stock but it's strange calling E-V13 African when it's been in Europe lot longer than J-L283.
Actually E-V13 was already 'European' when J-L283 was likely still 'Caucasian' or 'Middle Eastern'.

Since comparisons are made, E-V13 Mesolithic origin is very narrowed down to Mesolithic Egypt, and J2b2 should be somewhere between Ingushetia and Kabardino-Balkaria. If you put them on scale of importance to human prehistory it becomes clear which was the more prestigious place by a large scale, meaning which Mesolithic Egypt of course. Kaba

rdino-Balkari

[Riverman]

The exact origin of E-M35 is still not resolved yet, it was either at the border between Africa and Europe (Egypt-Sinai-Southern Levante), with possible forth and back migrations, or it was in the Levante-Arabian peninsula for most of the time.
Since we have no Pre-Natufian samples from the Levante yet, its impossible to tell. However, the Natufians resemble most closely the earlier inhabitants of the region, whereas the North African specimen being a the opposite end of the physical variation in many respects. Within the West Eurasian-North African spectrum, the Natufians and their Levantine predecessors were among the most gracile, whereas the North Africans were among the most robust.

In my opinion we therefore either deal with a complex forth and back migration, or a source region in the Near East. In any case, E1b1b and the predecessor of E-V13 was surely present in the Levante latest with the Natufians, which were among the people which kind of did the "preparatory work" for the Neolithic revolution in the Levante. Its therefore more correct to see E-L618 as a Levantine-Anatolian farmer lineage and E-V13 is a Carpatho-Balkan haplogrouip of Europe from the Bronze Age with its modern branches.

[Aspar]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub.  Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans.  There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

Aren't all haplogroups African derived?

I mean I have nothing against the label African, I would rather be that than be associated with white supremacists and racists even though I'm myself of European stock but it's strange calling E-V13 African when it's been in Europe lot longer than J-L283.
Actually E-V13 was already 'European' when J-L283 was likely still 'Caucasian' or 'Middle Eastern'.

There is nothing wrong with the statement "African derived Balkan E1b-V13" or one could also say "European subclade of African E1b". It's factually correct. E1b-L618 is an Ancestral African derived patrilineage and was picked up by farmers en route to Europe. It represents a minor African patrilineage signal in farmers.

J-L283 is a CHG-related steppe patrilineage and its quaternary ancestor, the oldest "J2b2" sample, is a Caucasus Hunter Gatherer from Kotias Klde. The dynamics are totally different to E1b-L618 and its path to Europe. The Caucasus is a transcontonental region of which a part of it is located in Europe and the other part borders continental Europe. 

CHG ancestry is attested in Eastern Europe since at least the Mesolithic and it did contribute autosomally and uniparentally since then in different proportions to populations of the dry steppe. The oldest J2b-L283 sample is a Core Yamnaya sample from the Western Steppe, Moldova. We have older aDNA attestation of J-L283 than E1b-V13 so that last sentence doesn't make much sense. As is labeling J2b2 or J-L283 "Middleastern".

E-L618 likely arose in the Levant and no, there is no African signal among the farmers. The very early farmers that entered Europe are mostly of Anatolian stock plus minor Levantine PPPB. This Levantine signal is likely traced with the E-L618. PPNB on the other hand were a mixture of Natufians and Anatolian HG. So it's not E-L618 but likely it's ancestor E-M78 that was African, more specifically North African, ANA derived people.
You can make a point that E-V13 has more recent ancestor from Africa than other haplogroups but at the end of the day all haplogroups derive from Africa. If you go far enough J-L283 ancestor HIJK likely came from Africa. 

Just because Caucasus borders Europe doesn't make J-L283 more 'European' than E-V13. And the CHG ancestry you are talking about in Mesolithic Eastern Europe has absolutely nothing to do with J-L283. In fact, it's getting more and more likely that the path of J-L283 to Europe started at the very EBA or very late Chalcolithic from the North Caucasus. There is no indication nor aDna that says otherwise that J-L283 was in Europe prior to that. 

Unlike J-L283, E-V13's presence in Europe is confirmed by means of aDna as is it's ancestor E-L618. The earliest E-L618 in Europe dates to 7th/6th century BCE.

As for the claim "We have older aDNA attestation of J-L283 than E1b-V13" that is absolutely false. The oldest attestation of E-V13 in Europe is from the Neolithic Cardial culture from Spain, much older than the J-L283 from Moldova.

Those are the facts and factually correct is the attestation of E-V13 and it's ancestor in Europe earlier than J-L283 or it's ancestor. I don't want this to escalate into 'haplogroup war', I'm simply stating the facts.