J2b-L283

[Polska]

The J2b L283 sample from the Movila Gologan kurgan in Crihana Veche is labeled as Core Yamnaya, or CoreYam, and is on the Dnipro Cline as such.  It can be modeled more specifically using 2 populations as CoreYam plus European Farmer.  Here is a quick evolution as to how they are able to estimate this with minimal babbling and many pictures from the 2 recent preprints.

Wave 2 migration and the construction of CoreYam:

   

J2b L283 and its history in Nal’chik and the North Caucasus = CLV people migrating to the area between the Dnieper and Don Rivers.  This has to happen (NLT) during the 5th millennium BCE in order for the CoreYam party around 4000 BCE.

CoreYam on the move west: 

   

CoreYam moves into western Ukraine, Moldova, and even Bulgaria displaying various levels of admixture with local groups, hence modeled 2 ways between CoreYam and European Farmers.

   

Additionally, there is this explanation in the above screenshot regarding diversity of lineages corresponding with late Sredny Stog/Serednii Stih, around 3642-3374 BCE.  This is within 8 years or 42 years of the TMRCA of J2b L283.  Remarkable coincidence?  I don’t think so.  This also perfectly explains the rapid diversification of R1b Z2103 during the same bracketed time frame:

   

Long story short, J2b L283 and its westward migration can’t be tied to Maykop using the Crihana Veche sample because it had to be present between the Don and Dnieper sometime during the 5th millennium BCE in order for CoreYam formation.  This precedes the Maykop phenomenon by a healthy margin.

Finally, Harvard modeled Yamnaya and CoreYam with Maykop using ancient samples from burials very near Crihana Veche that were the same age.  They are from Mayaky and Ozera, Ukraine:

   

Very different from sample I10206 from Crihana Veche.

Paper detailing how HapNe-LD works:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43522-6

[Moeca]

This "most likely road" is absolutely debunked by all studies. Posts by Ghurier reproduce false information.

Hi fellow Maykoppian,

As you started this way, I didn't even read the whole propaganda you wrote (probably based on the simplistic logic of the "oldest sample so far" and simply drawing line from sample to sample).
I just want to stress that the diffusion model I presented :
--> Is based on cultural influences having been recently published by experts in their domain,
--> Is based on well documented diversity centers,
--> Is consistent with all known ancient samples (like really, my model have currently 0 outliders).

This is the ground of a good scientific model, that explains why my claim always receive ancient DNA validation.
As I said, end of the story, handle it.
You will be disapointed when J-L283 will be found in Rinaldone or when some J-Z622 will be found in Los-Millares.

Keep in mind, all samples that aired in the last weeks confirmed my previous claims :
--> Z597 in southern Germany during EIA,
--> Picenes being phylogenic intermediates samples between Nuragic and Cetina (if correct) = ~3100 BCE segregation of clades involving Italy (therefore not working with a 1800 BCE diffusion from a place that didn't have diversity at this phylogenic stage).
--> A ~2700 BCE sample around the Black sea, where I always placed the origin of J-L283 (Note that this sample alone is not that constraining, alone he could still fit with many origins).

If you want to investigate the path used by J-Z615 to exit Rinaldone and arrive to North-east Italy, you might want to read about copper mettalurgy contacts in Italy.
You can start by the publication of Dolfini et al. 2020.
From here, it is fairly easy, Bell-beaker influence from the north made the job, giving the impulse to the formation of Cetina culture (also a well documented cultural influence).

Tchuss !

I think the unfounded and misleading propaganda is yours, not Corrigendum's. Arguing that their reconstructions are based "on the simplistic logic of the "oldest sample so far" and simply drawing line from sample to sample" while not providing evidence for your arguments is not the proper way to reject a hypothesis.

The recent Picenes paper actually rejects your claims, because it clearly states that J2b-L283 is among the Yamnaya (steppe) components that marked a clear distinction of the Adriatic (eastern) Italic from the Tyrrhenian (western) Italic peoples of the Iron Age. That obviously implies an eastern influx, most likely from Cetina and Iapygian migrations.

You stated "You will be disapointed when J-L283 will be found in Rinaldone or when some J-Z622 will be found in Los-Millares", if it will be found there in the Middle Bronze Age as it did in the Western Balkans, then you can put forward those counterarguments, but so far you have absolutely no evidence for them.

The scenario is that the Liburnians and their many colonies brought L283 and other haplogroups to Picene italy or Gargano italy etc

With Baltic Amber trade by Liburnians with egyptians starting in mid bronze-age plus the control of the adraitic sea by the liburnians can ensure that L283 and any other liburnian haplogroup in Italy came via liburnian colonies and trading posts

was there L283 in Spina and Adria Italy ?

Language.....early iron language of the Liburnians was a mix of old italic and central european

[La Tene]

I'm struggling to understand the impact of "yamnaya" in italy. The paper uses the term "yamnaya" a lot but it seems to me the they actually mean Yamnaya+cw+bb (so basically all "steppe" like ancestry is called "yamnaya" ???).

So which ancestry in Italy IA is coming from BB and which is from west balkans? Like they spiilt IA italics by serbia mesolitic, neolithic and "yamnaya". I presume the "yamnaya" could to be split between balkan derived actual yamnaya ancestry and the "proto italic" bb ancestry.

BB-related settlement predates Balkan migrations and already in the late EBA/early MBA BB descended groups had less steppe ancestry than Yamnaya descended Balkan groups:

Compare I2478 (R-P312, 2194-1939 calBCE) from Parma, northern Italy to I18747 (J-L283, 2000-1600 BCE) from Dalmatia, Croatia.

Code:

Croatia_MBA_Cetina:I18747,0.118376,0.145221,0.026398,-0.010013,0.02739,-0.009761,0.001175,0.003923,0.01268,0.022962,0.008282,0.004946,-0.010852,-0.010046,-0.008822,-0.01432,0.00352,0.006841,-0.001257,-0.006503,-0.005615,-0.004946,0,-0.009519,-0.00491
Italy_North_BellBeaker_3:I2478,0.127482,0.142174,0.046009,-0.000323,0.047393,0.012829,-0.00047,-0.000462,0.021884,0.033896,0.000487,0.017085,-0.016353,-0.009221,0.005565,-0.014717,-0.020992,0.009628,0.008296,-0.007253,0.00836,0.005812,-0.008751,-0.002651,0.002395

Target: Croatia_MBA_Cetina:I18747
Distance: 2.8138% / 0.02813758 | R3P
60.0 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.6 WHG

Target: Italy_North_BellBeaker_3:I2478
Distance: 5.5912% / 0.05591159 | R3P
56.2 TUR_Barcin_N
30.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.2 WHG

I used a simple 3-way, base components model to replicate the base components model of the paper:



BB-descended Italic-Tyrrhenian (IT) populations had less steppe ancestry than Yamnaya/Balkan-descended Adriatic (BA) populations but also more WHG ancestry than them. These differences highlight different population structure. IT populations were formed by BB groups which mixed/fused with Neolithic Italian populations. These populations had more WHG ancestry than Neolithic Balkan populations. As such, IT groups had more WHG ancestry than BA groups.

Then there also the earlier Cetina expansion in Italy so there are least 2 layers of balkan yamnaya ancestry (but we must also account for continual balkan arrivals during and between the Cetina/Iapygians as well. Then there is the prospect of actual yamnaya peoples perhaps trickling into italy from the NE  route (Friuli), but surely these would also carry J2b L283 lineages so even if that did happen I find it not very likely for them be the proto italics and we know italic languages dont come the from the "yamnaya branch" of IE, unless some "yamnaya" J2B L283 clades were assimilated by post BB proto italics.

Proto-Italic speakers are definitely equivalent to Italic BB + Tyrrhenian Neolithic and they predate Cetina/Balkan migrations. Italic languages were already there when Balkan groups arrived from across the Adriatic in the case of north-central and central Italy.

So (pre?)proto italics *should* not have any j2b l283 and therefore in the search for (pre)proto italics, anywhere with a large enough presence of j2b l283 should be avoided (like eastern italy)?? It does not mean some j2b Cetina clades were not assimilated very early on by the expanding (pre)proto italics and therefore becoming italic long before the IA. So say Liguria/Piemonte was a (pre) proto italic "base", and from there they over ran central italy and assimilated some Cetina derived j2b L283 settlers

Is this sort of what happened?

Yes, Pre-Proto-Italic-speakers didn't have J-L283 or R-Z2103 which were found among the Picenes as part of Balkan movements. Proto-Italic-speakers seem to have been formed by BB + Tyrrhenian Neolithic and after this period there were several groups in Italy which could have interacted and intermarried with each other. I don't exclude that a specific J-L283 or R-Z2103 or R-PF7563 lineage which came from the Balkans became part of local Italic groups during the LBA-IA or vice-versa that a specific Italic-descended lineage became part of Apulian Iapygian populations. Distinct groups definitely did exist until the Imperial Roman era, but it's clear that there was no strong barrier which prohibited intermarriage between them.

And there were certainly other groups and influences besides Proto-Italic, Paleo-Balkan and later Celtic descended groups in northern Italy throughout this period:



The I-L1229 from IA Verona descends from Middle Danubian (west-central Hungary) groups.

Ok, but in theory it would not rule out pre proto italics from entering italy from the NE, because iirc was there not a surge of WHG in pannonian peoples around the end of beaker period (ancestors of encrusted pottery peoples)? So the "more whg in proto italics" could be hiding whg ancestry picked up in pannonia? If they did enter by the eastern route, was J2b L283 confined primarily to the south of the Drava river? 

Its just that if  J2b L283 was numerous enough north of the upper Drava & Sava rivers in theory some clades could be picked up by pre proto italics, but if  J2b L283 was not really relevant north of the upper parts of those rivers (at least upper Drava), then "Italics from the west vs Italics the east" is still an open question? If they picked up extra "yamnaya" steppe on their way to italy via the east, even that extra steppe could of got reduced by the time Cetina migrants start appearing. Didn't the Vucedol culture extend way north into southern pannnonia? Thats why I ask.

[Moeca]

I'm struggling to understand the impact of "yamnaya" in italy. The paper uses the term "yamnaya" a lot but it seems to me the they actually mean Yamnaya+cw+bb (so basically all "steppe" like ancestry is called "yamnaya" ???).

So which ancestry in Italy IA is coming from BB and which is from west balkans? Like they spiilt IA italics by serbia mesolitic, neolithic and "yamnaya". I presume the "yamnaya" could to be split between balkan derived actual yamnaya ancestry and the "proto italic" bb ancestry.

BB-related settlement predates Balkan migrations and already in the late EBA/early MBA BB descended groups had less steppe ancestry than Yamnaya descended Balkan groups:

Compare I2478 (R-P312, 2194-1939 calBCE) from Parma, northern Italy to I18747 (J-L283, 2000-1600 BCE) from Dalmatia, Croatia.

Code:

Croatia_MBA_Cetina:I18747,0.118376,0.145221,0.026398,-0.010013,0.02739,-0.009761,0.001175,0.003923,0.01268,0.022962,0.008282,0.004946,-0.010852,-0.010046,-0.008822,-0.01432,0.00352,0.006841,-0.001257,-0.006503,-0.005615,-0.004946,0,-0.009519,-0.00491
Italy_North_BellBeaker_3:I2478,0.127482,0.142174,0.046009,-0.000323,0.047393,0.012829,-0.00047,-0.000462,0.021884,0.033896,0.000487,0.017085,-0.016353,-0.009221,0.005565,-0.014717,-0.020992,0.009628,0.008296,-0.007253,0.00836,0.005812,-0.008751,-0.002651,0.002395

Target: Croatia_MBA_Cetina:I18747
Distance: 2.8138% / 0.02813758 | R3P
60.0 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.6 WHG

Target: Italy_North_BellBeaker_3:I2478
Distance: 5.5912% / 0.05591159 | R3P
56.2 TUR_Barcin_N
30.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.2 WHG

I used a simple 3-way, base components model to replicate the base components model of the paper:



BB-descended Italic-Tyrrhenian (IT) populations had less steppe ancestry than Yamnaya/Balkan-descended Adriatic (BA) populations but also more WHG ancestry than them. These differences highlight different population structure. IT populations were formed by BB groups which mixed/fused with Neolithic Italian populations. These populations had more WHG ancestry than Neolithic Balkan populations. As such, IT groups had more WHG ancestry than BA groups.





The I-L1229 from IA Verona descends from Middle Danubian (west-central Hungary) groups.

Ok, but in theory it would not rule out pre proto italics from entering italy from the NE, because iirc was there not a surge of WHG in pannonian peoples around the end of beaker period (ancestors of encrusted pottery peoples)? So the "more whg in proto italics" could be hiding whg ancestry picked up in pannonia? If they did enter by the eastern route, was J2b L283 confined primarily to the south of the Drava river? 

Its just that if  J2b L283 was numerous enough north of the upper Drava & Sava rivers in theory some clades could be picked up by pre proto italics, but if  J2b L283 was not really relevant north of the upper parts of those rivers (at least upper Drava), then "Italics from the west vs Italics the east" is still an open question? If they picked up extra "yamnaya" steppe on their way to italy via the east, even that extra steppe could of got reduced by the time Cetina migrants start appearing. Didn't the Vucedol culture extend way north into southern pannnonia? Thats why I ask.

Italian historians state that the umbri people with there many many branches of different tribes entered Italy from the NE of Italy via pannonia and central europe circa 2200BCE

the indigenous Italian tribes where already there....etruscans, Liguri, Euganei, siculi to name a few


The G25 for  Croatia_MBA_Cetina  and
Italy_North_BellBeaker_  are basically the same split as myself

[Polska]

Interesting post on Twitter/X from linguist Guus Kroonen re: the Hittite word for wool and the earliest discovery of wool in Tsarskaya, Russia, which is just west of Nal’chik and the KDC001 J2b L283 sample there.  He references CLV people and how this could support the eastern entry (Anatolian branch) via the N. Caucasus since wool is found there before the Balkans.

It would be interesting to see if sheep/wool were present (and if so, when) there amongst the Mykhailivka Group, just east of Moldova between the Dnieper and Don Rivers.  Perhaps an early pastoralist movement (4500-4000 BCE) of J2b L283 out to Ukraine via CLV folk from N. Caucasus.

   

   

The various 3600/3500 BCE branches under J2b L283 almost perfectly correspond with the lower horizon of the middle layer of the settlement right there in Mykhailivka. From A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age :

   

It looks like the many Eneolithic branches of R1b Z2103 correspond very closely with the upper horizon at Mykhailivka, perhaps the lower horizon, J2b L283.

[Polska]

So it could be something like this.  Just a rough sketch:

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

[slamberty]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub. Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans. There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

[targaryen]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub.  Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans.  There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

Look at the autosomal DNA. Most plot with Central/Northern Italians, as did Illyrians.

Illyrians had more than just J2B2. We have plenty of R1bs and even some E-V13s in Croatia since the Iron Age.

[elflock]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub.  Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans.  There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

Look at the autosomal DNA. Most plot with Central/Northern Italians, as did Illyrians.

Illyrians had more than just J2B2. We have plenty of R1bs and even some E-V13s in Croatia since the Iron Age.

J-L283 is a major Illyrian patrilineage. It wouldn't be this low if it was an actual classical Illyrian settlement which it obviously isn't. We're not talking about R1b-Z2103 or R1b-PF7562 as other uniparentals but full blown non-Balkan ones. Besides, the R1b in the northwestern Balkans is mostly L2 and in its core archaeogenetic context unrelated to Illyrians. This is literally a young cosmopolitan port site in an east Adriatic island post Imperial Roman era.

There are:

4 Middleeastern J2a1-M410+ clades
1 Middleeastern J1-M267+ clades
1 likely African E1b clade

European uniparentals are:
1 J-L283>Z631
1 G2a-L497+ (in the Balkans Celtic derived)

There are furthermore 2 likely "European" clades (V13) of African E1b.

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub. Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans. There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

I agree 100% with the guy you quoted

[Moeca]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub.  Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans.  There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

The island of Hvar ( phasos ) was inhabited by Greeks from the Aegean island of Paros in the 6th century BC ...........the Greeks killed off the Liburnian men who where I2a and G2a ..

if the age of these samples are from this time or younger then they are all Greek markers

The island of Issa ( Vis ) was a liburnian island with greek traders from Chios

Korcula similar to Issa

Brac island ...was pure Liburnian


Liburnians spoke a old-italic language mixed with a central euro language ( same as the Venetic ......they traded heavily with each other ) ..............and they began trading baltic amber to the Egyptians from 1700BC


some of the information is at this link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4wmkXnAk08
Across a Narrow Sea: Ancient Greeks and Romans in the Eastern Adriatic

I cannot upload images,,,,,,,,,is there a reason for this ??

[elflock]

...........the Greeks killed off the Liburnian men who where I2a and G2a .

Could you stop with the off topic spamming? There is no archaeogenetic study that shows "Liburnians were I2a and G2a". Every now and then you post this off topic non sense here and other L283 related threads.

[Moeca]

...........the Greeks killed off the Liburnian men who where I2a and G2a .

Could you stop with the off stopic spamming? There is no archaeogenetic study that shows "Liburnians were I2a and G2a". Every now and then you post this off topic non sense here and other L283 related threads.

are you saying you do not believe the link from the archeologist ?

or do you have another agenda ?  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is it a nationalistic agenda ?

[targaryen]

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub.  Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans.  There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

Look at the autosomal DNA. Most plot with Central/Northern Italians, as did Illyrians.

Illyrians had more than just J2B2. We have plenty of R1bs and even some E-V13s in Croatia since the Iron Age.

J-L283 is a major Illyrian patrilineage. It wouldn't be this low if it was an actual classical Illyrian settlement which it obviously isn't. We're not talking about R1b-Z2103 or R1b-PF7562 as other uniparentals but full blown non-Balkan ones. Besides, the R1b in the northwestern Balkans is mostly L2 and in its core archaeogenetic context unrelated to Illyrians. This is literally a young cosmopolitan port site in an east Adriatic island post Imperial Roman era.

There are:

4 Middleeastern J2a1-M410+ clades
1 Middleeastern J1-M267+ clades
1 likely African E1b clade

European uniparentals are:
1 J-L283>Z631
1 G2a-L497+ (in the Balkans Celtic derived)

There are furthermore 2 likely "European" clades (V13) of African E1b.

New bioRxiv paper on late antiquity Dalmatian island Hvar. Roman mediated Middle Eastern J1a and J2a-M410 hub. Also clear once again that the African derived Balkan E-V13 did grow in numbers in the Westen Balkans mainly due to the Romans. There is one J2b-L283>Z638>Z631 saving the face of the Illyrians, however, no Y15058+.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...94056v1?ct

I agree 100% with the guy you quoted

Mate we're talking Late Antiquity not Middle Bronze Age. You can't expect that Y-DNA uniformity after 2000 years. Autosomal DNA determines ethnicity not Y-DNA.

You can have an African guy with R1b and a white British man with an African subclade. You can't claim the African dude is white and the British man black based on Y-DNA.

The paper itself mentioned how many of these samples were modelled with Croatia/Albania BA/IA.

[elflock]

@targaryen You're putting words in my mouth. Besides, what you're writing is not a counterargument but whataboutism.

[corrigendum]

Hvar was an ancient Greek colony, which later became a Roman colony. It wasn't an Illyrian settlement which became a Roman city.

It can't be expected to be similar to a typical Illyrian settlement.