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Uintah106 · 03-17-2024, 08:01 PM

(03-17-2024, 07:56 PM)cottager Wrote: In the end, where is the root of I1, the Eastern Baltic or the Danish Islands?

To me this paper plus the I1 in Finland imply the former.

alanarchae · 03-17-2024, 08:13 PM

I don’t think i’ve seen a paper that tries to solve so many issues. It’s a hard one to get your head around. But it has the ring of truth about it. The complexity of genetic mixing in Scandinavia in the beinze and iron ages doesn’t surprise me though as Germanic has always looked like a peculiar branch that looks like a tug of war in several directions. I’m also not surprised by the eastern north sea subgroup surving fairly pure in its western end until the migration era or that it was a significant factor (admixed with eastern scandinavian overlay) in iron age Jutland. I just wonder how this fits into NW Block and the mystery of the Celtic-like Cimbri and Teutnes.

Pylsteen · 03-17-2024, 08:57 PM

(03-17-2024, 07:56 PM)cottager Wrote: In the end, where is the root of I1, the Eastern Baltic or the Danish Islands?

The presence of the pre-I1 hunter-gatherer sample from Ostorf (northern germany) might suggest Denmark rather than the Baltic, but who knows how these people travelled along the Baltic sea.

alanarchae · 03-17-2024, 09:25 PM

(03-17-2024, 08:01 PM)Uintah106 Wrote:
(03-17-2024, 07:56 PM)cottager Wrote: In the end, where is the root of I1, the Eastern Baltic or the Danish Islands?

To me this paper plus the I1 in Finland imply the former.

my guess is they were a marginal group who had good boating skills did to living a lifestyle on marginal land on a coast where fishing was important. Then the need for maritime skills in the Nordic Bronze Age suddenly gave them an advantage over their less marine/more farming focussed groups. So I’d place them

1.On marginal land
2. In the coast (Baltic Sea)
3. In a group who had a reliance on and a lot of skill in sea fishing.
4. A group who would have been seen as backwards until then by other lineages

The shift from wealth being in land to wealth and prestige being more and more linked to control of trade by the sea may have brought them from the margins to being important

Naffi · (This post was last modified: 03-17-2024, 09:48 PM by Naffi.)

Very interesting to see 2 Ashkenazi Mtdna in Viking age denmark H1e4 and H3p

Capsian20 · 03-17-2024, 09:49 PM

(03-17-2024, 09:47 PM)Naffi Wrote: Very interesting to see 2 Ashkenazi Mtdna in Viking age denmark H1e4 and H3p

and V7b also

Naffi · 03-17-2024, 10:04 PM

(03-17-2024, 09:49 PM)Capsian20 Wrote:
(03-17-2024, 09:47 PM)Naffi Wrote: Very interesting to see 2 Ashkenazi Mtdna in Viking age denmark H1e4 and H3p

and V7b also

as well as other Ashkenazi lineages but these are pretty common

JonikW · 03-17-2024, 10:46 PM

(03-17-2024, 04:38 PM)alanarchae Wrote: makes you wonder about the Cimbri and Teutones who sound to me not to be Germanic unless you totally rely on negative evidence and just poo-poo all the evidence. Could that have been some para Celtic or NW Block kind of people?

Unless I'm missing something massive, surely this paper suggests that the Cimbri (Jutland peninsula if we trust the sources including Ptolemy) were very different from the potential NW Block folk of the Netherlands, and that they were Germanic, not Celtic: "The spread of West Germanic to Germany, the Netherlands and Britain, appears to be closely related to populations migrating from the Jutland Peninsula. In these regions, we see the transition from Bell Beaker-related to the Corded Ware-related Southern Scandinavian ancestry."

As far as I can see from the massive coloured chart (bloody hard to navigate on a phone), the people of the right period in northern Jutland broadly fit this description: "In Jutland during the Iron Age, individuals tend to fall within the Southern Scandinavian cluster (Figure 6), and are modelled with ~55% Southern and ~45% Eastern Scandinavian BA (Figure 5)."

Please correct me if I'm wrong someone but as far as I can see, the idea of the Cimbri being Celtic has nothing to support it here.

Awood · 03-17-2024, 11:13 PM

(03-16-2024, 08:57 PM)Uintah106 Wrote: This one intrigues me ' During the Migration Period, we detect a previously unknown northward migration back into Southern Scandinavia, partly replacing

earlier inhabitants and forming the North Germanic-speaking Viking-Age populations of
Denmark and southern Sweden, corresponding with historically attested Danes'.

I interpreted this as being the fact that the Danish Vikings appear to be more cosmopolitan and have some "southern" ancestry that wasn't present in the Iron Age.

Awood · 03-17-2024, 11:19 PM

(03-17-2024, 08:57 PM)Pylsteen Wrote:
(03-17-2024, 07:56 PM)cottager Wrote: In the end, where is the root of I1, the Eastern Baltic or the Danish Islands?

The presence of the pre-I1 hunter-gatherer sample from Ostorf (northern germany) might suggest Denmark rather than the Baltic, but who knows how these people travelled along the Baltic sea.

To my knowledge, there are no early samples of I1 in Denmark though that would suggest it expanded from there.

Bollox79 · (This post was last modified: 03-18-2024, 05:00 AM by Bollox79.)

(03-14-2024, 09:08 PM)Pylsteen Wrote: Nice, many Roman-age samples from Valkenburg (South-Holland), here lay Praetorium Agrippinae and lived the Cananefates.

Interesting paper - but more interesting to me that some samples that fall in my group were found at Valkenburg a "military" associated site cemetery. One Z381, one Z156, one Z306 and one DF98 and one DF96... I think... noticed you have to pay attention to the IDs because two IDs can mean bone and tooth sample both from the same sample. All dated to the use of the fort and area etc. Is it a clue that we also have that possible Batavi (possibly association based on unit/s present for it's date) Z156 at Klosterneuburg in Austria... and of course the "gladiators" of York aka my fav (and my first aDNA sample I matched SNPs with) 6drif-3 who is DF98 and 3drif-16 who is DF96.

More recently I found a thesis paper where the author considers 3 Driffield, and especially 6 Driffield to be more likely to have a military (horsemen) association. That would be more reflected in any funeral material found throughout the years in and around York and Driffield Estate. Here is a link to the part of the paper that discusses the Driffield site if anyone is interested: https://bradscholars.brad.ac.uk/bitstrea...sAllowed=y
You can just use the find function and search for Driffield or 10.3.3 RIP Cemetery Case-Study: Driffield Terrace, York

Just noticed them while browsing Ray's U106 list. Congrats on Z18 group under U106 for pulling many samples!!! I'm not so set anymore on what culture or cultures my U106 subgroup was a part of... I'd just like some answers and more samples and it's nice we got some more that support a possible a connection to a time and place and archaeological context. The more U106 samples the better right!

The question I ask for these guys at Valkenburg... who were they? Were they locals? Or Gauls? What units were located at Valkenburg that these guys could have been a part of? What does the atDNA look like?

Also anyone have a link to the burial details? More info on Valkenburg cemetery? I saw that there was a paper on isotopes at Valkenburg, but couldn't get access...

Also interesting are the two Z381 (again possibly z156? since these others are Z156 or below), two Z156 and one Z306 (presumably Z304) at Bucy-le-long in Aisne, France assigned to the La Tene culture. Anyone have additional info on these La Tene burials at Bucy-le-long?

Thanks in advance! Cheers!

P.S. and a big thank you to Ray for keeping track of U106 aDNA samples!!

P.P.S. found this browsing - is this about these same samples from Valkenburg: https://www.europlanet-society.org/21-ep...ary-units/

A report called :21-EPN-FT1-028 – Integrated aDNA, Sr-O-C isotope data and 14C dates to link human individuals to Roman military units"

The report summary: The lower German limes, the most northern frontier of the Roman Empire on mainland Europe, was the earliest linear frontier of the Roman Empire. Where the Lower German limes ends in the North Sea, the unique Roman cemetery of Valkenburg Marktveld was excavated that plays a key role in understanding the population dynamics in a Roman borderland and coastal landscape. In addition to our current biomolecular research, AMS radiocarbon dates were proposed of 29 adult individuals who were subjected to isotope and aDNA studies with the aim to establish an essential and reliable dating framework that will contribute to the human story and understanding the human history at the Marktveld site.

Bollox79 · (This post was last modified: 03-18-2024, 03:27 AM by Bollox79.)

Hmm for anyone interested found a bit on the inhumations at Velkenburg... assuming these are the same ones in the paper from that site - they were pretty beaten up... pathology wise. Quoting this from a bit of the paper (which you can find here: https://archaeology.datastations.nl/file...ersion=2.0):

"Borgognini-Tarli et al. (1977) had compared their results from
Collelongo in Italy with other Italian samples from the same
period from Barumini, Potenzia and Bagnacavallo (1st century BC -
3rd century AD) . Molleson (1993) recorded the stature of adult
skeletons from the Roman cemetery at Poundbury Camp near
Dorchester in England, while Wells (1982) studied the
Romano-British cemeteries at Cirencester. Wahl and Kokabi (1988)
analyzed the Roman cemetery at Stettfeld in Germany; their sample
represented a so-called native "gallo-, kelto-romische"
population. In evaluating all of the results which were obtained
using the "formulas of preference" from Trotter and Gleser (1952,
1958), one must take into consideration that since all available
long bone lengths were used in Poundbury, Stettfeld and
Valkenburg, these will lead to more variable estimates than in the
study of Cirencester where only femoral and tibial lengths were
used. In Table 14 the similarity in stature from Cirencester to
the inhumed and cremated individuals of Stettfeld is striking. But
the males from Valkenburg seem to be about 4-7 cm taller than
those from the aforementioned groups. The difference for females
is less obvious. Comparing the results from the tables after
Manouvrier (1892), the males from Valkenburg are approximately
6-10 cm taller than those from the Italian samples, and approx.
4.5 cm taller than those from the German sample. Unfortunately,
small sample sizes hinder interpretations of these analyses.
Still, the data seem to confirm relative differences in standing
height among European populations, as they still exist today
(Falkner and Tanner, 1978) . Thus, with respect to stature, we may
conclude that the inhumed of the Valkenburg cemetery most probably
were the deceased of the local native Romano-Dutch population.
When stature is viewed in diachronical perspective, it can be used
as an indicator of the general health status of a population. In
general, growth shifts in stature during the centuries are
attributed to changes in socio-economic and hygienic conditions of
populations (e.g. Maat, 1984). It seems acceptable to assume that
the inhumed men at Valkenburg will not show major genetic differences
with the present inhabitants of the Low Countries
during the past few centuries. If so, then one may conclude with
respect to an adult stature of 167.5 cm in 1865 AD (Oppers, 1966)
and recently of 180.3 cm in 1980 (C.B.S., 1980), that the stature
of males at Valkenburg of 175.9 cm points to reasonable health
conditions during growth."

Mitchell-Atkins · 03-18-2024, 03:43 AM

Couldn't edit an error in my previous post so I will just repost it

CGG022465 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1a~ U152>L2>S372/Z258, Z384
CGG107752 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1a1~ U152>L2>S372/Z258, Z385>L737, L738, L739, S180/Z383, S256/Z291
CGG023706 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1c1a1a1 U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z51>L562>Z57
CGG023693 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1c1b U152>L2>Z49>Z142>S257/Z150, S7402/Z12222, Z26720
CGG107394 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1c2b1a1 U152>L2>Z49>S8183>FGC31474/Y4356>FGC20796/Y4353>A1168/Y12892>FGC20777/Y4355, FGC31485

CGG023693 is on my Z150, Z12222 y-dna line... Bourgogne_Franche_Compt, 750BCE-450BCE, IronAge Hallstatt

So that's new. Z150, Z12222 had previously been found in Slovakian La Tene (sample 11712, 190-1 BCE, Bratislava Castle, Slovakia, La Tène).

and now Eastern France Hallstatt

This may provide support for my idea that my-dna line tended stay near the upper Rhine early on, with a "brother" branch heading south and east with either with Hallstatt or CisAlpine Gaul migration.

So it appears I possibly have Hallstatt roots on both my y-dna and mtdna lines.
Manofthehour, Uintah106, JMcB And 2 others like this post

Dewsloth · 03-18-2024, 04:59 AM

(03-18-2024, 02:47 AM)Bollox79 Wrote:
(03-14-2024, 09:08 PM)Pylsteen Wrote: Nice, many Roman-age samples from Valkenburg (South-Holland), here lay Praetorium Agrippinae and lived the Cananefates.

Is it a clue that we also have that possible Batavi (possibly association based on unit/s present for it's date) Z156 at Klosterneuburg in Austria... and of course the "gladiators" of York aka my fav (and my first aDNA sample I matched SNPs with) 6drif-3 who is DF98 and 3drif-16 who is DF96.

More recently I found a thesis paper where the author considers 3 Driffield, and especially 6 Driffield to be more likely to have a military (horsemen) association.

... and in the three bolded sites above (and also the Hiddestorf elite horse burial, and iirc Koksijde, Flanders burial) you find DF19 interred alongside U106.

Ajeje Brazorf · 03-18-2024, 11:31 AM

Samples Y-DNA

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