Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[ph2ter]

The new Hungarian early Slavic samples placed on my Slavic centered IA PCA:

What can we say about the two IA La Tene Hun samples and the 3 from the Avar period. They seem to plot very close to each other.

I think these La Tene samples came to Hungary from the Proto-Slavic area. In that period (in La Tene) Proto-Slavs were autosomally actually identical to the Balts.
These outliers are shifted south because they were already mixed with the local population from Hungary, so they look like these Avar Slavs from the later periods.

[Mik]

I've added one more family (AV1 and AV2) to Europe1 PCA.

Would be interesting to additionally compare the HRV_Nustar Mom and Son couple, I28390 and I34800.

[leonardo]

The new Hungarian early Slavic samples placed on my Slavic centered IA PCA:

What can we say about the two IA La Tene Hun samples and the 3 from the Avar period. They seem to plot very close to each other.

I think these La Tene samples came to Hungary from the Proto-Slavic area. In that period (in La Tene) Proto-Slavs were autosomally actually identical to the Balts.
These outliers are shifted south because they were already mixed with the local population from Hungary, so they look like these Avar Slavs from the later periods.

Could there be some kind of genetic continuity? Or did men with similar dna both allegedly move into what is now Hungary centuries apart? The former seems more logical.

[Mik]

What I mean is this. The admixture cline in the AV1/AV2 and RKF183/RKF106 relatives couples is directed more to Croatia Iron Age samples, whereas the Nustar mom and son pair more in the direction of Bulgaria Iron Age samples. What do you think, is such kind of analysis legit?

[Radko]

Would be interesting to additionally compare the HRV_Nustar Mom and Son couple, I28390 and I34800.

These samples are a few hundred years younger than AV1/AV2 or RKF106/RKF183, so both are clearly mixed.

[ph2ter]

What I mean is this. The admixture cline in the AV1/AV2 and RKF183/RKF106 relatives couples is directed more to Croatia Iron Age samples, whereas the Nustar mom and son pair more in the direction of Bulgaria Iron Age samples. What do you think, is such kind of analysis legit?

They are shifted towards Croatia_IA because they actually mixed with people which were partially local and partially Germanic:


Target: HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod_Slav_localmix__RKF183
Distance: 2.1797% / 0.02179719
36.6 HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod_Slav__RKF106
35.6 Pannonii
22.0 Langobards
3.2 Alans
1.4 Romans
1.2 LateAvars



Target: Hungary_Avar_5__AV1_590
Distance: 1.8266% / 0.01826581
65.0 Hungary_Avar_5__Av2_602_X2m-n
12.4 Baiuvari
11.8 Ostrogoths_Transcarpathia
5.8 Illyrians
5.0 Pannonii

[ph2ter]

What can we say about the two IA La Tene Hun samples and the 3 from the Avar period. They seem to plot very close to each other.

I think these La Tene samples came to Hungary from the Proto-Slavic area. In that period (in La Tene) Proto-Slavs were autosomally actually identical to the Balts.
These outliers are shifted south because they were already mixed with the local population from Hungary, so they look like these Avar Slavs from the later periods.

Could there be some kind of genetic continuity? Or did men with similar dna both allegedly move into what is now Hungary centuries apart? The former seems more logical.

La Tene samples with Slavic dna are clear outliers.
Men with similar dna both allegedly move into what is now Hungary centuries apart.

[leonardo]

I think these La Tene samples came to Hungary from the Proto-Slavic area. In that period (in La Tene) Proto-Slavs were autosomally actually identical to the Balts.
These outliers are shifted south because they were already mixed with the local population from Hungary, so they look like these Avar Slavs from the later periods.

Could there be some kind of genetic continuity? Or did men with similar dna both allegedly move into what is now Hungary centuries apart? The former seems more logical.

La Tene samples with Slavic dna are clear outliers.
Men with similar dna both allegedly move into what is now Hungary centuries apart.

What a coincidence. Men with very close dna but 700-1000 years apart traveled the same path.

[bolek]

Would be interesting to additionally compare the HRV_Nustar Mom and Son couple, I28390 and I34800.

These samples are a few hundred years younger than AV1/AV2 or RKF106/RKF183, so both are clearly mixed.

I don't think South Slavs are a mixture of Eastern Slavs and Italians. Rather Western Slavs and Greek like population.

[Mik]

What I mean is this. The admixture cline in the AV1/AV2 and RKF183/RKF106 relatives couples is directed more to Croatia Iron Age samples, whereas the Nustar mom and son pair more in the direction of Bulgaria Iron Age samples. What do you think, is such kind of analysis legit?

They are shifted towards Croatia_IA because they actually mixed with people which were partially local and partially Germanic:


Target: HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod_Slav_localmix__RKF183
Distance: 2.1797% / 0.02179719
36.6 HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod_Slav__RKF106
35.6 Pannonii
22.0 Langobards
3.2 Alans
1.4 Romans
1.2 LateAvars



Target: Hungary_Avar_5__AV1_590
Distance: 1.8266% / 0.01826581
65.0 Hungary_Avar_5__Av2_602_X2m-n
12.4 Baiuvari
11.8 Ostrogoths_Transcarpathia
5.8 Illyrians
5.0 Pannonii

Thank you, ph2ter! A nice example how different admixture components can result in the same position on such PCA.

[ph2ter]

Would be interesting to additionally compare the HRV_Nustar Mom and Son couple, I28390 and I34800.

These samples are a few hundred years younger than AV1/AV2 or RKF106/RKF183, so both are clearly mixed.

I don't think South Slavs are a mixture of Eastern Slavs and Italians. Rather Western Slavs and Greek like population.

Not all South Slavs are on the same cline. Some really are on the cline towards Greeks, but some are not.
Italians are the most similar to the Roman Pannonian population. So, Croatians are mostly on that cline towards Italians.
I am actually on the cline Av2-Polish-Av1-ph2ter.
Various levels of admixture with Germanics make situation more complicated.

[Mik]

The German component in South Slavs seems to behave very irregular. For example: Of the 5 12th century samples from Gornji Kosinj, Croatia 3 (I35095, I35012, I34980) show significant Germanic input, whereas samples I35010 and I35014 do not.

[Bukva_]

Balkan Slav admixture doesn't really have pattern by region. Only thing that can be said, >10% Germanic admixture is linked to Pannonian Slavs and higher Aegean admixture is more common among Serbs and Bosnians. What I find, Anatolian, local West Balkan and Aegean (Thracian-like) admixture is most common. There isn't much samples that misses two of them.

[Dewsloth]

What I mean is this. The admixture cline in the AV1/AV2 and RKF183/RKF106 relatives couples is directed more to Croatia Iron Age samples, whereas the Nustar mom and son pair more in the direction of Bulgaria Iron Age samples. What do you think, is such kind of analysis legit?

They are shifted towards Croatia_IA because they actually mixed with people which were partially local and partially Germanic:


Target: HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod_Slav_localmix__RKF183
Distance: 2.1797% / 0.02179719
36.6 HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod_Slav__RKF106
35.6 Pannonii
22.0 Langobards
3.2 Alans
1.4 Romans
1.2 LateAvars



Target: Hungary_Avar_5__AV1_590
Distance: 1.8266% / 0.01826581
65.0 Hungary_Avar_5__Av2_602_X2m-n
12.4 Baiuvari
11.8 Ostrogoths_Transcarpathia
5.8 Illyrians
5.0 Pannonii

Can you share the roman-period dataset above or run it for RKF263, please?
EDIT:
Never mind, I think this is it:
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...9#pid14409

[Radko]

RKF106 (pure Slav?) and RKF183 (Slav mixed with local Pannonian population?) form a small pedigree.





Distance to: HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKF106
0.02922706 Lithuanian_VA
0.02992499 Lithuanian_RA
0.03105828 Lithuanian_PA
0.03355386 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03592017 Russian_Pskov
0.03621161 Latvian
0.03808722 Belarusian
0.03836069 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03861658 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03910529 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04041342 Russian_Smolensk
0.04087973 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04140846 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04178742 Russian_Kursk
0.04186993 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04215356 Russian_Voronez
0.04263483 Russian_Belgorod
0.04301726 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04356316 Estonian
0.04392931 Polish
0.04404640 Russian_Kaluga
0.04436511 Polish_Kashubian
0.04471491 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04518638 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.04523123 Russian_Orel

RKF106 belongs to R-PF6155 (R-M458?) - https://www.theytree.com/tree/R-PF6155



Distance to: HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKF183
0.02039666 Hungarian
0.02100703 Croatian
0.02500316 Slovenian
0.02552174 Austrian
0.02842506 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02878348 Czech
0.02889017 German_Erlangen
0.02951119 Bosnian
0.03038727 German_East
0.03330135 Moldovan
0.03423608 Serbian
0.03432276 German
0.03473938 Slovakian
0.03487904 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03568972 German_Hamburg
0.03755259 Montenegrin
0.03771749 Moldovan_o
0.03781927 Polish_Silesian
0.04140453 Polish
0.04142515 French_Alsace
0.04234225 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04267194 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04295870 Romanian
0.04337243 Afrikaner
0.04347821 BelgianA

Pribislav wrote:
"RKF106 is definitely L1029. He has two derived SNPs at L1029 level, AMM269/S4546/Z2938+  T>C (3C) and AMM272/S4548/Z2954+  C>A (1A). The only derived SNP I could find below L1029 is BY82719+ at L1029>YP416>Y348628 level, but it is a C>T transition covered with only one read. YP416 isn't covered."