Modeling Polish ancestry

[Radko]

a sample from Viminacium (Serbia) from abt. 146 AD. I consider that assignment arbitrary and not legit. First, these samples are from notably before Slavs at all showed up in history and second, when Slavs showed up in history, they were genetically not like that. And third, you have no clue where these samples from Sicily and Serbia hail from.

Some Viminacium samples (including R9673) share IBD segments with later Medieval Slavs according to upcoming Vyazov et al. study, so maybe they represent some early migrants (dead ends) from the Slavic homeland (i.e. from post-Zarubintsy horizon).

-------------

EAA 2024 abstract...

Geography and chronology of Slavic dispersal in Central and Eastern Europe according to archaeogenetic data

Limited suitability of PCA, ADMIXTURE, and qpAdm methods of genetic analysis relying on allele frequencies for distinguishing many populations that were important historical actors in the Roman and Migration Period Europe can be overcome by the implementation of an approach based on autosomal haplotypes, “identity-by-descent” (IBD). Imputation of missing genotypes, phasing and IBD inference were performed for ancient Eurasians using the ancIBD method (Ringbauer et al. 2023). IBD links for subsets of these individuals are represented as graphs, visualized with a force-directed layout algorithm, and most clusters that were inferred in these graphs with the Leiden algorithm are in remarkable agreement with archaeological evidence, reflecting communities of distantly related individuals. Based on this approach, we identified a distinct population group that existed in Central and East Europe from the late 2nd century CE to the Medieval period. This group played a significant role in population processes and, from the 6th century onwards, was identified in written sources as the Slavs. Considering recent linguistic and archaeological advancements, it is plausible that this group included Slavic speakers from its early formation. Considering the results of other analyses based on allele frequencies (PCA, ADMIXTURE), a hypothesis for the origin and history of this population can be proposed: it was formed in close vicinity of the Eastern Baltic region and dispersed over Central, Eastern, and Central-South Europe in several waves of migrations. The earliest representatives of this population group were found along the wide arc from the Middle Danube to the Middle Volga that limits from the south the poorly sequenced area with the domination of the cremation ritual, in the context dated to the late 2nd-early 3rd century CE. The latest individuals of this IBD cluster were buried in the Medieval Slavic-associated context.

[mariusz99]

Target: MariuszKorycinski_scaled
Distance: 1.9358% / 0.01935817
70.6 Proto_Slavic
21.2 Germanic
8.2 Celtic-like

[Galadhorn]

Target: RD_scaled
Distance: 3.2949% / 0.03294884
67.0 Proto_Slavic
27.8 Germanic
5.2 Celtic-like

[Galadhorn]

Target: RD_scaled
Distance: 3.2949% / 0.03294884
67.0 Proto_Slavic
27.8 Germanic
5.2 Celtic-like

Be careful, they will draft you into the Bundeswehr .

Our bloody fate in Upper Silesia. My Silesian grandfather was in Kriegsmarine during the 2WW

[Tomenable]

Tomenable, regarding the Jewish admixture:

(1) such a small percentage (less than 1%) may primarily be noise or a "system" error;

(2) I myself have 0.9% on 23andMe common genes with Ashkenazi Jews (this is not the same as admixture), and since I know my genealogy well, I will explain to you what it is.

My Catholic and Polish/Slavic great-great-grandparents from near Rzeszów - Jakub Pękala and his wife Katarzyna née Samek - apparently had a daughter who married a Jew. Today, the offspring of this union are quite a large group of Ashkenazi Jews from the USA, including a New York Times journalist Emma Goldberg. We have common genes, 23andMe counts it as common autosomes with Jews, but the thing is that these Jews (influential and very culturally Jewish) have the genes of Catholics from Rzeszów, and not I have the genes of Jews from Rzeszów. Emma Goldberg herself is my closest match on many websites (in GEDmatch, 23andMe, MyHeritage), because she sent DNA to the same websites as me.

Regards

This is not how it works and your Jewish admixture must be real and totally not related to Polish DNA in some of your Jewish relatives. They run ADMIXTURE on each segment of your DNA and based on this they assign all segments to various components such as Eastern European or AJ.

Can you show us the DNA results of Emma Goldberg? Does she score 100% Ashkenazi or does she have also Eastern Euro admix?

[Galadhorn]

Tomenable, regarding the Jewish admixture:

(1) such a small percentage (less than 1%) may primarily be noise or a "system" error;

(2) I myself have 0.9% on 23andMe common genes with Ashkenazi Jews (this is not the same as admixture), and since I know my genealogy well, I will explain to you what it is.

My Catholic and Polish/Slavic great-great-grandparents from near Rzeszów - Jakub Pękala and his wife Katarzyna née Samek - apparently had a daughter who married a Jew. Today, the offspring of this union are quite a large group of Ashkenazi Jews from the USA, including a New York Times journalist Emma Goldberg. We have common genes, 23andMe counts it as common autosomes with Jews, but the thing is that these Jews (influential and very culturally Jewish) have the genes of Catholics from Rzeszów, and not I have the genes of Jews from Rzeszów. Emma Goldberg herself is my closest match on many websites (in GEDmatch, 23andMe, MyHeritage), because she sent DNA to the same websites as me.

Regards

This is not how it works and your Jewish admixture must be real and totally not related to Polish DNA in some of your Jewish relatives. They run ADMIXTURE on each segment of your DNA and based on this they assign all segments to various components such as Eastern European or AJ.

Can you show us the DNA results of Emma Goldberg? Does she score 100% Ashkenazi or does she have also Eastern Euro admix?

I am not a specialist, but:

(1) 1% can really be an error in all these platforms (Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage etc.)

(2) Emma's ancestry (according to Ancestry.com) is:

[Tomenable]

^^^
So as you can see Emma has 15% of Polish admixture and you have 1% of Jewish admixture.
So where does your idea come from that they wrongly assigned Polish admixture as Jewish?

If Emma had 100% Jewish results then your interpretation could be correct. But it isn't the case.

[Galadhorn]

^^^
So as you can see Emma has 15% of Polish admixture and you have 1% of Jewish admixture.
So where does your idea come from that they wrongly assigned Polish admixture as Jewish?

If Emma had 100% Jewish results then your interpretation could be correct. But it isn't the case.

But consider, Tomenable, that building population theories based on 1% is very risky. See what Ancestry honestly says at 1%:

"Your ethnicity estimate is 1%, but it can range from 0-2%"

P.S. In my family tree dating back to the 17th and 18th centuries, I do not have a single Jew among my ancestors. I wish I had, but I don't. As Tolkien wrote in a letter: "I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."

[Tomenable]

^^^
But why are you using Ancestry if you did also the 23andMe DNA test (you told me that you did). Show us your 23andMe results instead.

23andMe is more accurate than Ancestry when it comes to assigning Jewish ancestry. Show us your and Emma's 23andMe results please.

[Tomenable]

P.S. In my family tree dating back to the 17th and 18th centuries, I do not have a single Jew among my ancestors.

Which only confirms that a low level of AJ admixture entered Polish gene pool already in the Middle Ages.

BTW, thanks for confirming that at 23andMe you have 0,9% of AJ admixture. This cannot be "just noise".

[Tomenable]

Rothaer,

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...0#pid12050

Code:

Proto_Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009,0.126344,0.127957,0.067127,0.070737,0.042162,0.02008,0.011281,0.014999,-0.001023,-0.032802,-0.001949,-0.01124,0.017542,0.01968,-0.012893,0.007558,0.011604,0.00114,0.005782,0.011506,-0.010357,0.003091,0.007765,-0.008796,-0.001676
Celtic-like:Przeworsk_PCA0012,0.135449,0.145221,0.054682,0.029716,0.050163,0.008646,-0.002585,0.008538,0.01309,0.017677,-0.002436,0.009142,-0.010109,-0.007294,0.011265,0.011403,0.004172,0.008361,0.00905,-0.000375,-0.000125,0.005317,-0.003697,-0.003976,0
Germanic:Weklice_R10634,0.133173,0.136081,0.071276,0.067507,0.041546,0.023706,0.003995,0.015461,0.005931,-0.008018,-0.009906,0.004046,-0.008028,-0.006055,0.021851,0.002652,-0.00665,-0.00228,0.004777,0.001,0.004243,-0.003462,0.00419,0.013255,-0.005389

In your model I get with FTDNA data:

Target: Tomenable
Distance: 2.3784% / 0.02378406
56.4 Proto_Slavic
28.2 Germanic
15.4 Celtic-like

And with my Living DNA raw data:

Target: TomenableLD
Distance: 3.0943% / 0.03094295
51.8 Proto_Slavic
34.4 Germanic
13.8 Celtic-like

I will probably merge all of my raw data files and order coordinates for a merged file.

=====

Why did you decide to select specifically KRA009 as your Proto-Slavic reference?:

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...7#pid11507

[rothaer]

Tomenable, regarding the Jewish admixture:

(1) such a small percentage (less than 1%) may primarily be noise or a "system" error;

(2) I myself have 0.9% on 23andMe common genes with Ashkenazi Jews (this is not the same as admixture), and since I know my genealogy well, I will explain to you what it is.

My Catholic and Polish/Slavic great-great-grandparents from near Rzeszów - Jakub Pękala and his wife Katarzyna née Samek - apparently had a daughter who married a Jew. Today, the offspring of this union are quite a large group of Ashkenazi Jews from the USA, including a New York Times journalist Emma Goldberg. We have common genes, 23andMe counts it as common autosomes with Jews, but the thing is that these Jews (influential and very culturally Jewish) have the genes of Catholics from Rzeszów, and not I have the genes of Jews from Rzeszów. Emma Goldberg herself is my closest match on many websites (in GEDmatch, 23andMe, MyHeritage), because she sent DNA to the same websites as me.

Regards

You will understand, that if Poles have 0.,8% real AJ on average, you having 0.9% AJ would not mean that it must have anything to do with the story that you told.

Did you check your AJ assigned segments at the Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer vs Farmer calculator as for notably elevated ENF?

[Riverman]

^^^
So as you can see Emma has 15% of Polish admixture and you have 1% of Jewish admixture.
So where does your idea come from that they wrongly assigned Polish admixture as Jewish?

If Emma had 100% Jewish results then your interpretation could be correct. But it isn't the case.

But consider, Tomenable, that building population theories based on 1% is very risky. See what Ancestry honestly says at 1%:

"Your ethnicity estimate is 1%, but it can range from 0-2%"

P.S. In my family tree dating back to the 17th and 18th centuries, I do not have a single Jew among my ancestors. I wish I had, but I don't. As Tolkien wrote in a letter: "I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."

All these companies can wrongly assign a segment to Jewish because its common in modern Jews from their reference data base. It doesn't mean this segment was originally Ashkenazi Jewish 300 or 400 years ago. And you can't properly distinguish how you got it, if Jews have it, unless you can create a cluster of matches which leads back to a specific ancestor to which you can assign that segment(s).

Anyway, another issue is that AncestryDNA doesn't decimal numbers. This means that some people with 1 percent have in fact less, others more than 1 percent in the estimate.

[Tomenable]

All these companies can wrongly assign a segment to Jewish because its common in modern Jews from their reference data base. It doesn't mean this segment was originally Ashkenazi Jewish 300 or 400 years ago. And you can't properly distinguish how you got it, if Jews have it, unless you can create a cluster of matches which leads back to a specific ancestor to which you can assign that segment(s).

Anyway, another issue is that AncestryDNA doesn't decimal numbers. This means that some people with 1 percent have in fact less, others more than 1 percent in the estimate.

Note that his 1% or 0,9% (23andMe) of AJ admixture doesn't have to go to one specific ancestor.

It could be inherited from all (or majority) of his ancestors, who also had ca. 1% of AJ admixture.

[rothaer]

(...)
Why did you decide to select specifically KRA009 as your Proto-Slavic reference?:

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...7#pid11507

As I wrote I selected a sample that (in the North Europe PCA) was located at the center of the respective cluster. I did not test it to be well into the mean in other PCAs or aspects which should be done before ultimately deciding for taking it as a proxy. What I do is essentially the same like you when using one set of data that is considered representative of the mean. If I calculate a mean of a group that is also subject to a certain selection or select a particular individual considered representative of the mean is no big difference.