Sephardic Jews DNA results

[Rodoorn]

I don't trust such estimates too much. The most trustworthy results come from matches which share solid segments with a person. Like if you have a couple of Sephardic matches on a specific area of a chromosome, that would be better evidence than ethnicity estimates of some sort, which might be skewed by bad fitting references or very old admixture events.
If we are talking about 1500 and later, there is a chance, if the admixture is real, that you still have some matches in that direction. To check that seems to be the better way to go, IMHO.

As said two matches on my heritage Riverman with two Israeli.

Take in account that the Y-DNA E-L1401 is exclusive Levantine and E-V22 is core semitic.

In we must take in account that this Y-DNA suvived the reconsquista, went 'undercover' in Frisians catholics and when some were part of the Sepharadim the Holocaust did probably the rest.

We are talking about (end) 17th century, 7 generations ago, so traceable, and the Jews shared at that time a worship house with the Catholics in Leeuwarden next to my ancestors lived (and participated).

[Riverman]

I don't trust such estimates too much. The most trustworthy results come from matches which share solid segments with a person. Like if you have a couple of Sephardic matches on a specific area of a chromosome, that would be better evidence than ethnicity estimates of some sort, which might be skewed by bad fitting references or very old admixture events.
If we are talking about 1500 and later, there is a chance, if the admixture is real, that you still have some matches in that direction. To check that seems to be the better way to go, IMHO.

As said two matches on my heritage Riverman with two Israeli.

Take in account that the Y-DNA is exclusive Levantine and E-V22 is core semitic.

In we must take in account that this Y-DNA suvived the reconsquista, went 'undercover' in Frisians catholics and when some were part of the Sepharadim the Holocaust did probably the rest.

We are talking about (end) 17th century, 7 generations ago, and the Jews shared at that time a worship house in Leeuwarden next to my ancestors lived (and participated).

Two is not a lot, though. But given that the ancestor might have lived in the 16th century, its possible he left no autosomal heritage in your family at all. Or you might have autosomal Sephardic ancestry, but not from your direct paternal ancestor. Many alternative options, I'd say.
Without a more recent paternal lineage match, it remains speculative.

[Rober_tce]

After 1492, some hispanic jews arrived to Holland since Portugal, even the converted of jews did the same after 1520 due to the pressure and repression of Inquisition.

Do you have jewish matches? They can even being ashkenazim (some dutch sephardim migrated to East Europe and mixed with ashkenazim). For me is the best form to determinate jewish ancestry. Put attention also in your family tree, if you can go beyond 16th or 17th-18th century and find a jewish ancestor would be great. I know very little about dutch names more frequent between dutch sephardim, but it’s clear they addopted dutch names for survival.

In tests companies your father have some levantines traces or others whose could indicates Middle East/jewish genetic? 

Seeing your diagrame, I see considerable levantine markers in comparison, according your land of origin would should be less.

Recap. I think my paternal ancestry ends up along the conversos and before the Jewish population in the Levant.

Why:
- Y-DNA E-V22's rise 8000 ybp> went most probably together with the rise of the (semi) nomadic pastoralists and the semitic language from the 'heartland' in Southern Levant.  See:https://e-v22.net/
- My subclade E-L1401 branched off at the beginning of the Bronze Age of Southern Levant 550 ybp, until now it has an unique (extended) Levantine spread (no Euro). 
- The conversos went in the 17th century to the Netherlands, that's seen from my father about 7 generations ago, this has lead to a of course diluted but still recognizable Marranos genetic profile with elevated MENA/ Levant and Iberian scores un my fathers autosomal (and still traceable in mines).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zwor...sp=sharing

Further research:
- the traces Marranos in the admixture, how reliable are those admixtures?
- no Conversos/ Sephardim names or references in my genealogy (masters in disguise!?

For dissapear in the society and being “one more”, it was common addopting typical names of the lands where the conversos were settled. For this reason, is complex to identify a converse in a family tree, althought is possible through records, documents, some names settled in certain regions, etc.

[Rodoorn]

I don't trust such estimates too much. The most trustworthy results come from matches which share solid segments with a person. Like if you have a couple of Sephardic matches on a specific area of a chromosome, that would be better evidence than ethnicity estimates of some sort, which might be skewed by bad fitting references or very old admixture events.
If we are talking about 1500 and later, there is a chance, if the admixture is real, that you still have some matches in that direction. To check that seems to be the better way to go, IMHO.

As said two matches on my heritage Riverman with two Israeli.

Take in account that the Y-DNA is exclusive Levantine and E-V22 is core semitic.

In we must take in account that this Y-DNA suvived the reconsquista, went 'undercover' in Frisians catholics and when some were part of the Sepharadim the Holocaust did probably the rest.

We are talking about (end) 17th century, 7 generations ago, and the Jews shared at that time a worship house in Leeuwarden next to my ancestors lived (and participated).

Two is not a lot, though. But given that the ancestor might have lived in the 16th century, its possible he left no autosomal heritage in your family at all. Or you might have autosomal Sephardic ancestry, but not from your direct paternal ancestor. Many alternative options, I'd say.
Without a more recent paternal lineage match, it remains speculative.

I already stated it's not a lot, but that is no surprise. And it's seven generations Riverman (end) 17th century. Then was the influx. So quit real it has left a trace (about 1%)..

My father on the whole autosomal level (the rest was on chromsome level):

Davis about the Erfurt paper:

"The spreadsheet also shows that the so called Middle Eastern cluster is modal (that is, it peaks in) the Druze." 

Question:

When there is a singleton Conversos forefather 7 generations assuming that each generation is roughly 50 years apart. ago how much of the 100% Conversos ancestry is left in the autsomal of the current generation? And on chromosome level?

Chat GPT: 

Summary
Autosomal DNA: Approximately 0.78% (or 1/128) of the autosomal DNA of an individual 7 generations later will come from a single Conversos forefather.

Chromosome Level: This DNA will be distributed across the chromosomes in very small segments, due to the recombination events that occur in each generation.

These calculations assume ideal random recombination and independent assortment, which gives a statistical average. Actual inheritance can vary due to the randomness of genetic recombination.

[Rodoorn]

After 1492, some hispanic jews arrived to Holland since Portugal, even the converted of jews did the same after 1520 due to the pressure and repression of Inquisition.

Do you have jewish matches? They can even being ashkenazim (some dutch sephardim migrated to East Europe and mixed with ashkenazim). For me is the best form to determinate jewish ancestry. Put attention also in your family tree, if you can go beyond 16th or 17th-18th century and find a jewish ancestor would be great. I know very little about dutch names more frequent between dutch sephardim, but it’s clear they addopted dutch names for survival.

In tests companies your father have some levantines traces or others whose could indicates Middle East/jewish genetic? 

Seeing your diagrame, I see considerable levantine markers in comparison, according your land of origin would should be less.

Recap. I think my paternal ancestry ends up along the conversos and before the Jewish population in the Levant.

Why:
- Y-DNA E-V22's rise 8000 ybp> went most probably together with the rise of the (semi) nomadic pastoralists and the semitic language from the 'heartland' in Southern Levant.  See:https://e-v22.net/
- My subclade E-L1401 branched off at the beginning of the Bronze Age of Southern Levant 550 ybp, until now it has an unique (extended) Levantine spread (no Euro). 
- The conversos went in the 17th century to the Netherlands, that's seen from my father about 7 generations ago, this has lead to a of course diluted but still recognizable Marranos genetic profile with elevated MENA/ Levant and Iberian scores un my fathers autosomal (and still traceable in mines).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zwor...sp=sharing

Further research:
- the traces Marranos in the admixture, how reliable are those admixtures?
- no Conversos/ Sephardim names or references in my genealogy (masters in disguise!?

For dissapear in the society and being “one more”, it was common addopting typical names of the lands where the conversos were settled. For this reason, is complex to identify a converse in a family tree, althought is possible through records, documents, some names settled in certain regions, etc.

Indeed. And we see along some (not the majority!) marranos that went to the Low Countries became not part of the Sephardim community. We even see that a few in Antwerpen were there was Catholic dominance some Marranos became even calvinistic. And were the calvinist ruled like in Hoorn West-Friesland there was even a Marranos catholic priest Francesco da Costa) for a while. It is imaginable that in the Frisian capital Leeuwarden happened the same, I already mentioned the shared worship house Jewish-Catholic.

[Rodoorn]

Two is not a lot, though. But given that the ancestor might have lived in the 16th century, its possible he left no autosomal heritage in your family at all. Or you might have autosomal Sephardic ancestry, but not from your direct paternal ancestor. Many alternative options, I'd say.
Without a more recent paternal lineage match, it remains speculative.

I'm not 'selling certainties' here, nevertheless I think I might be on the right track (within all uncertainties).

Why?
- As such E-L!401 and the fragments on the chromosomes share something: a Levantine connection/ origin! Even more we only have E-L1401 samples from the extended Levant. So my assumption is that Y-DNA and the chromosome fragments could be from the same source.
- I have made a probability calculation, which chance is higher a entrance of a solitary Y-DNA in 1000 AD (living unto now) or the chance that in a lifetime (80 years) your are going to be hit by the thunder and win the lottery in the Netherlands. Last one won. A solitary line is very vulnerable to become extinct (no sons). The more recent an influx is the more likely.
- The Marranos have a genetic profile lots of MENA/Levant and Iberia that coincidences with the chromosome fragments.
- The Marranos went in the 17th century to the Northern Netherlands (in small numbers!). That is seen from my father about 7 generations ago, that leaves a trace of 0.8% on the whole of the autosomal. In the Your DNA Eurasia modern admixture my father gets 1% Druze, which are close to the Sephardim (Xue et al 2015).

On the individual chromosome level we get bigger hits. MENA/Levant and Iberian (the Marranos genetic profile).  As fare as I know more than average Dutch.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zwor...sp=sharing

You see @Rober_tce also has a Sephardim presence in relative small percentages. Makes sense imho.

Conclusion: makes it other options impossible: no. Uncertainties stay. 

Nevertheless this option a Marranos forefather is a real scenario. Not fare fetched.

[samuelchl]

Hello,

Here are my results (Algerian/Moroccan Jew).

Is there another calculator that is good for analyzing Jewish ancestry? Also, how reliable is the Tomenable calculator? It indicates that I have more Phoenician than Judah/Israel ancestry

[Rodoorn]

Hello,

Here are my results (Algerian/Moroccan Jew).

Is there another calculator that is good for analyzing Jewish ancestry? Also, how reliable is the Tomenable calculator? It indicates that I have more Phoenician than Judah/Israel ancestry

Do you have a link to this G25 thing?

[samuelchl]

@Rodoorn

I use this website => https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateurs.aspx

the ones i used are :

https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculate...-kapus.htm
https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculate...en-age.htm

you need to convert your rawdata to g25 coordinates with this tool (sam line for me):

https://www.exploreyourdna.com/rawtosimg25.aspx

Or you can use Gedmatch to get your eurogene k36 data and there is a eurogene k36 to g25 coordinate (s4m line for me) :

https://allelocator.ovh/K36vertical.html

[Rodoorn]

Hello,

Here are my results (Algerian/Moroccan Jew).

Is there another calculator that is good for analyzing Jewish ancestry? Also, how reliable is the Tomenable calculator? It indicates that I have more Phoenician than Judah/Israel ancestry

I think the Phoenician results is just an alternative for Levantine, some source population.

I suppose that you are a kind a full Algerian/Morrocan Jew. That's very different from me, because my Dad is about 99% non Jewish and I 99,5% or so....

Just little snippets from 7 generations ago, although the Y-DNA seems to be full Semitic.

May be you subscribe to Your DNA porttal they have paid and non paid admixtures....I would be curios!

[Rodoorn]

@Rodoorn

I use this website => https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateurs.aspx

the ones i used are :

https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculate...-kapus.htm
https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculate...en-age.htm

you need to convert your rawdata to g25 coordinates with this tool (sam line for me):

https://www.exploreyourdna.com/rawtosimg25.aspx

Or you can use Gedmatch to get your eurogene k36 data and there is a eurogene k36 to g25 coordinate (s4m line for me) :

https://allelocator.ovh/K36vertical.html

Thanks for the links, how about this one? What would be your result?

https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculate...p-jews.htm

Dad got a East Med signal:

[samuelchl]

This model doesn’t distinguish Israelite, Canaanite and Phoenician. It says mostly Canaanite

[samuelchl]

No actually I just have to disable aggregate to see the details and I am mostly from cities in the north of Israel. So my problem is solved.

The cities are baqah, shadud et hazor between Haifa and the Tibériade lake.

[szin]

The Belmonte Jews are a crypto-Jewish community in Spain who survived the Inquisition. They tend to practice endogamy, although as you'll see, there is signifiant Spanish admix. On moderns runs they do not score significant amounts of Sephardic or even Ashkenazi, instead scoring mostly non-Jewish MENA and a bit of Caucasian Jewish:

Target: Belmonte_Jew
Distance: 1.2401% / 0.01240061
37.4 Italian_Lazio
20.0 Spanish_Soria
14.0 Sardinian_North
7.0 Tunisian_Rbaya
6.4 Berber_MAR_TIZ
4.0 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
3.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
2.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
2.6 Saudi_Najd
1.8 Saudi
0.4 Armenian_Gurin
0.4 Lebanese_Christian

Top 10 closest modern pops:

Distance to: Belmonte_Jew
0.03308077 Maltese
0.03387469 Sicilian_West
0.03637807 Sicilian_West_Trapani
0.03781026 Italian_Lazio
0.03840011 Sicilian_South_Agrigento
0.04066732 Sicilian_East_Syracuse
0.04124212 Italian_Umbria
0.04136381 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04141205 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.04228066 Italian_Campania

The closest Jewish population only comes in at 9 (bolded). Note the strong affinity with Maltese and Sicilian pops, both admixed with MENA.

Oracle:

82% Italian_Lazio + 18% Moroccan_North
88% Italian_Lazio + 12% Berber_MAR_TIZ
55% Tunisian_Jew + 45% Spanish_Soria
57% Libyan_Jew + 43% Spanish_Soria
83% Italian_Lazio + 17% Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
87% Italian_Lazio + 13% Saharawi
85% Italian_Lazio + 15% Mozabite
83% Italian_Lazio + 17% Berber_Tunisia_Chen
87% Italian_Lazio + 13% Berber_MAR_ERR
53% Libyan_Jew + 47% Spanish_Castello

From this I would estimate roughly 50/50 MENA/Southern Euro type admix.

Medieval run using Alwakeel's 1100-1300 calculator:

Target: Belmonte_Jew
Distance: 1.8400% / 0.01839986
30.8 Sardinia_MA
25.2 Hungary_MA
20.4 Levant_MA
13.8 Al-Andalus_MA
9.8 North_Africa_MA

Again, note the affinity with southern Italian populations.

On PCAs they tend to cluster with Iberians, with only a slight pull towards Levantine pops:

   

What is notable about the Belmonte Jews is they have kept Jewish practices until the modern day. Some have even reverted back to traditional Judaism.

[Vinitharya]

The Belmonte Jews are a crypto-Jewish community in Spain who survived the Inquisition. They tend to practice endogamy, although as you'll see, there is signifiant Spanish admix. On moderns runs they do not score significant amounts of Sephardic or even Ashkenazi, instead scoring mostly non-Jewish MENA and a bit of Caucasian Jewish:

Target: Belmonte_Jew
Distance: 1.2401% / 0.01240061
37.4 Italian_Lazio
20.0 Spanish_Soria
14.0 Sardinian_North
7.0 Tunisian_Rbaya
6.4 Berber_MAR_TIZ
4.0 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
3.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
2.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
2.6 Saudi_Najd
1.8 Saudi
0.4 Armenian_Gurin
0.4 Lebanese_Christian

Top 10 closest modern pops:

Distance to: Belmonte_Jew
0.03308077 Maltese
0.03387469 Sicilian_West
0.03637807 Sicilian_West_Trapani
0.03781026 Italian_Lazio
0.03840011 Sicilian_South_Agrigento
0.04066732 Sicilian_East_Syracuse
0.04124212 Italian_Umbria
0.04136381 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04141205 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.04228066 Italian_Campania

The closest Jewish population only comes in at 9 (bolded). Note the strong affinity with Maltese and Sicilian pops, both admixed with MENA.

Oracle:

82% Italian_Lazio + 18% Moroccan_North
88% Italian_Lazio + 12% Berber_MAR_TIZ
55% Tunisian_Jew + 45% Spanish_Soria
57% Libyan_Jew + 43% Spanish_Soria
83% Italian_Lazio + 17% Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
87% Italian_Lazio + 13% Saharawi
85% Italian_Lazio + 15% Mozabite
83% Italian_Lazio + 17% Berber_Tunisia_Chen
87% Italian_Lazio + 13% Berber_MAR_ERR
53% Libyan_Jew + 47% Spanish_Castello

From this I would estimate roughly 50/50 MENA/Southern Euro type admix.

Medieval run using Alwakeel's 1100-1300 calculator:

Target: Belmonte_Jew
Distance: 1.8400% / 0.01839986
30.8 Sardinia_MA
25.2 Hungary_MA
20.4 Levant_MA
13.8 Al-Andalus_MA
9.8 North_Africa_MA

Again, note the affinity with southern Italian populations.

On PCAs they tend to cluster with Iberians, with only a slight pull towards Levantine pops:



What is notable about the Belmonte Jews is they have kept Jewish practices until the modern day. Some have even reverted back to traditional Judaism.

The Belmonte Jews were discovered by a Jewish miner from Russian Congress Poland named Samuel Schwarz, who came to neutral Portugal in 1914 because the war shut down mines almost everywhere else in Europe.  It would be much easier to have an unsampled Sephardic haplogroup than Ashkenazic, since the Ashkenazim are one, well tested, and two, having expanded from a small source population the number of different haplogroups is smaller than the Sephardim.