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E-V22 origins and spread
#31
(05-09-2024, 04:25 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(05-08-2024, 09:37 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-07-2024, 02:55 AM)ilabv Wrote: Your references also claim they might be farmers not pastoralists. This is more likely. Pastoralists in Egypt come later, with Maadi-Buto.

Farmers are not my point of focus. We see about 8000 YBP the upcoming of the pastoralist, that coincidences with the split E-Z1919>E-V22.

Ilse Köhler Rollefson (1991) about the Jordanian area ('Ain Ghazal): " "Some of the strongest archeological evidence  for the first occurrence of pastoral nomadism during the PPNC:6000 (6000 BC-5500 BC) are the findings of Andrew Garaard's Azraq Basisn Project (Garrard et al 1988). He located an excavated in the easter desert that ranged from Epipaleothic  to the Pottery Neolithic and he found that  caprovids first appear round 6250 BC, This suggests that caprovids were not part of the indigenous fauna of the eastern desert but were introduced there, only after they had been domesticated  in the permanent settlements in the margins  of the highlands to the west."

See this:
https://acorjordan.org/2016/08/18/the-af...r-7000-bc/

And especially towards Egypt:
Juris Zarins has proposed that a Circum Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex developed in the period from the climatic crisis of 8200 YPB, partly as a result of an increasing emphasis in PPNB cultures upon animal domesticates, and a fusion with Harifian hunter gatherers in Southern Palestine, with affiliate connections with the cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Desert of Egypt. Cultures practicing this lifestyle spread down the Red Sea shoreline and moved east from Syria into southern Iraq. 

I will elaborate this further!

That's so often cited simply because it's on Wikipedia. That same Harifian culture is also said to come from Egypt, with a merging of the Egyptian and Levantine cultures to create the CANPC and the dissemination of Pre-Proto-Semites.

It's purely theoretical and there's not much evidence for it. Which affiliate cultures in the Fayyum do you believe are connected to the Levant at this time? Outside of the farmers that introduce agriculture circa 6500 BC of course

I did some search beyond wikipedia, 'plundered' the University Library here Wink 

The Juris Zarin quote from wiki is from a very relevant source Pastoralism in the Levant, Archaeological Materials in Anthropological Perspective (1992)
[Image: Scherm-afbeelding-2024-05-09-om-16-05-51.png]

Just picking up a few more relevant sources and then I'll come back to it in extension.
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#32
How much Levantine farmer admixture were in European farmers and how much did this vary? To me E1b in Euro farmers (and their descendants) is derived from the Levantine farmer admixture in Anatolian Ceramic Farmers. How confirmed is that admixture though, do we even have sufficient Natufian genomes?
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#33
(05-09-2024, 04:25 AM)ilabv Wrote: That's so often cited simply because it's on Wikipedia. That same Harifian culture is also said to come from Egypt, with a merging of the Egyptian and Levantine cultures to create the CANPC and the dissemination of Pre-Proto-Semites.

It's purely theoretical and there's not much evidence for it. Which affiliate cultures in the Fayyum do you believe are connected to the Levant at this time? Outside of the farmers that introduce agriculture circa 6500 BC of course

To your specific quest with regard to the Levantine pastoralists from 8000 YBP that went to Egypt- or not-, I use three sources:

Allison Smith Unraveling the prehistoric ancestry of the present-day inhabitants of Northeast Africa:
An archaeogenetic approach to Neolithisation  (2013). 


"TThe prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation"

Ofer Bar-Yosef, Nile Valley-Levant interactions: An eclectic review (same bundle as Smith 2013). This is mostly about PPNA and PPNB:

"There is no unambiguous evidence that farmers did arrive at that time in the Nile delta.The presence in Lower Egypt of rare el-Khiam points, objects known to have been exchanged
among farmers and foragers (Bar-Yosef and Belfer-Cohen 1989) indicate a geographically long range distribution as they do occur in Abu Madi Iin southern Sinai (Bar-Yosef 1985). The charcoaldates from this site are spread around 9600-8300cal BC and thus are more or less contemporarywith other PPNA sites in the Levant. In addition,there is a small sample of Helwan points that are common in PPNB times in the Levant but areprobably dated in Lower Egypt to later times as suggested by Shirai (2010).

Hence, if we acceptthe Terminal Pleistocene connections between the two regions expressed by the presence of the Mushabian, and probably by the later Ramonian (characterized by assemblages that include Helwan lunates), the spread of early Neolithic points suggests an accidental continuous interaction. Foragers continued to survive in the Nile valley as documented by the Qarunian sites in the Fayum basin (only 70 km from Helwan as the crowflies) dated to c.7500-6000 cal BC (Shirai 2010), or the Elkabian in Upper Egypt of c.6800-6500cal BC (Vermeersch 1978). Thus we should consider the option that even if the delta was colonized first, archaeological remains of the early colonization
are no longer visible.

The geological and archaeological evidence demonstrates that during the Holocene some 50 m thick sediments accumulated in the Nile delta that are currently mostly under the sea level (Stanley et al. 2008). Hence it is not surprising that a Predynastic artifact dated to c.4000-3900 cal BP was found at 7.5 m below the surface. The artifact was not washed by fluvial action but leftthere at the time when the coast was 15 km north of the current coastal line. The famous site of Butowas on the edge of a marshy area stretching intothis earlier lagoon enclosed by a bar where the drilling of core S-50 uncovered this stone object.

This research and others indicate that the sinking of the delta is due to a series of fault lines running approximately in parallel to the edge of the African continent (Samuel et al. 2003). Thus we should expect earlier Neolithic landing sites to be even deeper than 7.5 m. This expectation is supported by many studies based on numerous boreholes and hundreds of radiocarbon dates (e.g. Butzer 2002 and references therein; Stanley 2002 and referencestherein).

Nevertheless in the case of E-V22 and pastoralists, I'm primary interested in PPNC: 

"The next phase of migration by farmers bringing goats and later sheep into Egypt took place after the “8200 cal BP cold event” (c.6200cal BC). 

...

The Egyptian Neolithic that dates to the 6th millennium BC provides a wealth of evidence for the connections with the Levant partially due to inward migration of small groups as indicated by
the genetic evidence (see Alison Smith, this volume).

The Levantine origins of the bifacial projectiles and knives were already suggested by more than one study (e.g. Wetterstrom 1993; Shirai 2010 andreferences therein). Movements of Levantine groups were probably the mechanism that brought cattle, goat and sheep to the Nile valley."

Last but not least: Shayla Monroe, Stuart Tyson Smith , Sarah B. McClure, Pastoralism, hunting, and coexistence: Domesticated and wild
bovids in Neolithic Sudan (2023):

"By 6000 BC, these Nile Valley subsistence strategies began to accommodate the initial influx of caprines from Southwest Asia (Wengrow et al., 2014)" 

In this case I'm not interested in solving the whole Neolithic case (from the Levant to the Nile or vice versa) here. My aim is if it is likely that Southern Levant pastoralists from about 800YBP/ 6000 BCE, when into the Nile area c.q. Egypt. I tend to say- based on qualified sources- yes indeed.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/oa.3223
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handl...sAllowed=y
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#34
(05-09-2024, 06:56 PM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-09-2024, 04:25 AM)ilabv Wrote: That's so often cited simply because it's on Wikipedia. That same Harifian culture is also said to come from Egypt, with a merging of the Egyptian and Levantine cultures to create the CANPC and the dissemination of Pre-Proto-Semites.

It's purely theoretical and there's not much evidence for it. Which affiliate cultures in the Fayyum do you believe are connected to the Levant at this time? Outside of the farmers that introduce agriculture circa 6500 BC of course

To your specific quest with regard to the Levantine pastoralists from 8000 YBP that went to Egypt- or not-, I use three sources:

Allison Smith Unraveling the prehistoric ancestry of the present-day inhabitants of Northeast Africa:
An archaeogenetic approach to Neolithisation  (2013). 


"TThe prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation"

Ofer Bar-Yosef, Nile Valley-Levant interactions: An eclectic review (same bundle as Smith 2013). This is mostly about PPNA and PPNB:

"There is no unambiguous evidence that farmers did arrive at that time in the Nile delta.The presence in Lower Egypt of rare el-Khiam points, objects known to have been exchanged
among farmers and foragers (Bar-Yosef and Belfer-Cohen 1989) indicate a geographically long range distribution as they do occur in Abu Madi Iin southern Sinai (Bar-Yosef 1985). The charcoaldates from this site are spread around 9600-8300cal BC and thus are more or less contemporarywith other PPNA sites in the Levant. In addition,there is a small sample of Helwan points that are common in PPNB times in the Levant but areprobably dated in Lower Egypt to later times as suggested by Shirai (2010).

Hence, if we acceptthe Terminal Pleistocene connections between the two regions expressed by the presence of the Mushabian, and probably by the later Ramonian (characterized by assemblages that include Helwan lunates), the spread of early Neolithic points suggests an accidental continuous interaction. Foragers continued to survive in the Nile valley as documented by the Qarunian sites in the Fayum basin (only 70 km from Helwan as the crowflies) dated to c.7500-6000 cal BC (Shirai 2010), or the Elkabian in Upper Egypt of c.6800-6500cal BC (Vermeersch 1978). Thus we should consider the option that even if the delta was colonized first, archaeological remains of the early colonization
are no longer visible.

The geological and archaeological evidence demonstrates that during the Holocene some 50 m thick sediments accumulated in the Nile delta that are currently mostly under the sea level (Stanley et al. 2008). Hence it is not surprising that a Predynastic artifact dated to c.4000-3900 cal BP was found at 7.5 m below the surface. The artifact was not washed by fluvial action but leftthere at the time when the coast was 15 km north of the current coastal line. The famous site of Butowas on the edge of a marshy area stretching intothis earlier lagoon enclosed by a bar where the drilling of core S-50 uncovered this stone object.

This research and others indicate that the sinking of the delta is due to a series of fault lines running approximately in parallel to the edge of the African continent (Samuel et al. 2003). Thus we should expect earlier Neolithic landing sites to be even deeper than 7.5 m. This expectation is supported by many studies based on numerous boreholes and hundreds of radiocarbon dates (e.g. Butzer 2002 and references therein; Stanley 2002 and referencestherein).

Nevertheless in the case of E-V22 and pastoralists, I'm primary interested in PPNC: 

"The next phase of migration by farmers bringing goats and later sheep into Egypt took place after the “8200 cal BP cold event” (c.6200cal BC). 

...

The Egyptian Neolithic that dates to the 6th millennium BC provides a wealth of evidence for the connections with the Levant partially due to inward migration of small groups as indicated by
the genetic evidence (see Alison Smith, this volume).

The Levantine origins of the bifacial projectiles and knives were already suggested by more than one study (e.g. Wetterstrom 1993; Shirai 2010 andreferences therein). Movements of Levantine groups were probably the mechanism that brought cattle, goat and sheep to the Nile valley."

Last but not least: Shayla Monroe, Stuart Tyson Smith , Sarah B. McClure, Pastoralism, hunting, and coexistence: Domesticated and wild
bovids in Neolithic Sudan (2023):

"By 6000 BC, these Nile Valley subsistence strategies began to accommodate the initial influx of caprines from Southwest Asia (Wengrow et al., 2014)" 

In this case I'm not interested in solving the whole Neolithic case (from the Levant to the Nile or vice versa) here. My aim is if it is likely that Southern Levant pastoralists from about 800YBP/ 6000 BCE, when into the Nile area c.q. Egypt. I tend to say- based on qualified sources- yes indeed.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/oa.3223
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handl...sAllowed=y

As is written, the extent of the Khiam point into Egypt is only as far as Sinai. This is unsurprising. Cultures from the Levant have inhabited this area going quite far back. I don't think there is otherwise strong evidence of it in the Delta. Even the Helwan is barely attested. Of course the Nile silt deposits present a problem which is why we have barely any evidence of anything going back this far in Lower Egypt as compared to Upper Egypt.

As for the date of c. 6200 BC for the introduction of farmer culture, tools, animals, etc. This is similar to the date I gave. I said c. 6500 BC. The earliest strong evidence isn't the earliest possible settlement. Regardless lets not quibble over 300 years.

I feel all you demonstrated is something I agree with... That some group(s) from the Levant entered Egypt in c. 6500 BC (according to sources you provided c. 6200 BC) - you say they are pastoralists, I say they are more sedentary. I don't think the evidence you provided claims it one way or the other
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#35
Last part of the puzzle: (proto) Semitic!

In previous postings I made a connection between upcoming pastoralists in the Southern Levant about 8000 BC and the genetics namely the split from (E-M78>) E-Z1919>E-V22.

Ilse Köhler Rollefson (1991) about the Jordanian area ('Ain Ghazal): " "Some of the strongest archeological evidence  for the first occurrence of pastoral nomadism during the PPNC:6000 (6000 BC-5500 BC) are the findings of Andrew Garaard's Azraq Basisn Project (Garrard et al 1988). He located an excavated in the easter desert that ranged from Epipaleothic  to the Pottery Neolithic and he found that  caprovids first appear round 6250 BC, This suggests that caprovids were not part of the indigenous fauna of the eastern desert but were introduced there, only after they had been domesticated  in the permanent settlements in the margins  of the highlands to the west."

And we got a recent  enhanced  sample from the Steppe paper (Lazaridis et al. 2024):
I1710_enhanced
AG83_6 (Ain-Ghazal, child 1, AG 83 3074 043)
E-Z1919 about 7600 YBP.
That's the oldest known sample of E-Z1919.

So it's likely that with the 'Revolutions in the Desert: The Rise of Mobile Pastoralism' (Rose, 2016) and the adoption of a semi-nomadic lifestyle out of these environment in the Southern Levant (Ain Ghazal included) there was a split E-Z1919> E-V22.

But these parts of the puzzle can be completed with other puzzle pieces: linguistics. More specific: (proto) Semitic.

Departure point in this respect is the monograph, Pastoralism in the Levant (1992). In which there is a magnificient contribution of Mattanayah Zohar, Pastoralism and the spread of Semitic languages. This contains some reference to Joseph Henninger, Zum frühsemitischen Nomadentum (1969). Besides good old library works there are some modern references available on the net (see the end).

Zohar (1992) states:

"The simultaneous appearance of mobile pastoralism and Semitic language does not necessarily mean that the two are connected but  the probability is very high. All the reasons combined seem to make a good case for the spread of probably relative small mobile groups of pastoralists speaking Old Semitic into the Near East.

The limited historical sources in our possession show that the pastoralists were undoubtedly Semitic (Henninger 1969). Also the ruling class in the newly established Middle Bronze Age towns and cities of Syria-Palestine were predominantly Semitic according to names supplied by Egyptian sources."
...

"Without assuming an “ethnic struggle” in the modern sense of the word, it seems to be clear that it was the constant pressure of the semi-nomadic pastoralists which led to the dominance of the Semitic languages in the Levant. The grand theme of Near Eastern history, the struggle between the Desert and the Sown, can also be followed in linguistic terms. The time-honored view of many scholars, seeing the renewal of Semitic peoples if the Fertile Crescent in the ever repeating waves of pastoral nomads and semi-nomads appearing out of the desert in various degrees of strength and settling in the fertile areas, appears to have been correct, after all."

The summary of it is in this image of the Zohar paper, I have added the E-M78 and E-Z1919>E-V22 (placed in their timing).
[Image: Proto-Semetic.png]

I guess this makes the puzzle complete: there is most probably a big coherence in the rise and spread of pastoralism- and semi-nomadic lifestyle- from the Southern Levant, the 'birth' of E-V22 (out of E-Z1919) and the proto-Semitic language at about 8000 YBP (6000 BCE) and later on.

Who is interested in a more elaborated outline from linguistic perspective see:
- the very good overview of Daan Nijssen:
https://www.daannijssen.com/2016/08/16/s...languages/
- and a recent (2023) paper about Proto-Semitic and Egyptian by John Huehnergard:
https://www.academia.edu/99909193/2023_P...d_Egyptian
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#36
I believe the Nostratic tree is misleading, i don't think IE and Afro-Asiatic stem from the same root, they have nothing to do with each other.

Potentially there might have been an influence from still E-L618 Afro-Asiatic speaking community in Eastern Carpathians and influencing some wanderwords in early PIE like the name of cow/taurus, some numerical words like number seven etc, etc, etc.
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#37
Proto-Semitic at 6000 BC is quite frankly silly. Not worth refuting
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#38
(05-09-2024, 06:56 PM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-09-2024, 04:25 AM)ilabv Wrote: That's so often cited simply because it's on Wikipedia. That same Harifian culture is also said to come from Egypt, with a merging of the Egyptian and Levantine cultures to create the CANPC and the dissemination of Pre-Proto-Semites.

It's purely theoretical and there's not much evidence for it. Which affiliate cultures in the Fayyum do you believe are connected to the Levant at this time? Outside of the farmers that introduce agriculture circa 6500 BC of course


In this case I'm not interested in solving the whole Neolithic case (from the Levant to the Nile or vice versa) here. My aim is if it is likely that Southern Levant pastoralists from about 800YBP/ 6000 BCE, when into the Nile area c.q. Egypt. I tend to say- based on qualified sources- yes indeed.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/oa.3223
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handl...sAllowed=y

From your own link:

I therefore assume that farming actually reached the Nile delta and started there by 8,000-7,000 cal BC and then spread upstream along the Nile valley. Hamlets and villages of this period were not yet found in the Nile delta or between its apex and the Fayum basin. The current belief is that the sites of this time are buried deep beneath the deposits of the Nile delta. 
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#39
There is a relatively recent study (https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-022-00416-7, Zhao, X., Liu, Y., Thomas, I. et al. Herding then farming in the Nile Delta. Commun Earth Environ 3, 88 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s43247-022-00416-7), which has some perspective on subsistence patterns and chronology in the Nile Delta. Notably:

"We find that animal microfossils (dung and hair) occur in substantial quantities from around 7,000 years ago in our high-resolution-dated non-pollen palynomorphs spectrum, while domesticated cereals emerge in the spectrum around 300 years later."
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#40
(05-10-2024, 09:47 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I believe the Nostratic tree is misleading, i don't think IE and Afro-Asiatic stem from the same root, they have nothing to do with each other.

Potentially there might have been an influence from still E-L618 Afro-Asiatic speaking community in Eastern Carpathians and influencing some wanderwords in early PIE like the name of cow/taurus, some numerical words like number seven etc, etc, etc.

The Nostratic hypothesis is considered outdated by most linguists.
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#41
(05-10-2024, 09:47 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I believe the Nostratic tree is misleading, i don't think IE and Afro-Asiatic stem from the same root, they have nothing to do with each other.

Potentially there might have been an influence from still E-L618 Afro-Asiatic speaking community in Eastern Carpathians and influencing some wanderwords in early PIE like the name of cow/taurus, some numerical words like number seven etc, etc, etc.

Nostratic is not the key here. It's about the Semitic lineage. And most of all the coherence between the rise and spread of the pastoralists in the Southern Levant, the genetic and linguistic aspects thereof, with a time frame of 8000 YBP (6000 BC) >. That's the clue in my opinion.

The genetic effect is anyway the origin, the split of E-V22, which caused a tremendously large population jump!

Wim Penninx: ‘The population jumps of E-V22 are the oldest large population jump. If we look into details, it appears that we have two population jumps fairly close together: E-CTS567 (8300 ybp) and E-L1250 (7800 ybp) with a distance of 10 SNPs, of which 5 are in the yfull defined CombBED region. This means that the time difference between the two has some uncertain ranging from 500-800 years. Both population jumps have many descending lines. 

[Image: temp-Image-WTm-Pnb.avif]
The diagram above is the distribution in time excluding the European E1b-V13. This gives a better view on the different population jumps of the Afroasiatic branches.'
The green one is E-V22, you see the "big bang" in the timeframe 8500-6000 YBP. Imo not coincidental with 'The Revolutions in the Desert: The Rise of Mobile Pastoralism' (Rose). Better said, it is a clear manifestation of the rise of the pastoralists!

And that also includes the following. Zohar (1992): “The simultaneous appearance of mobile pastoralism and Semitic language does not necessarily mean that the two are connected but  the probability is very high. All the reasons combined seem to make a good case for the spread of probably relative small mobile groups of pastoralists speaking Old Semitic into the Near East."
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#42
The demographic growth between 8.500 to 8.000 is absoutely evident, nice graph. And also very different than for e.g. E-V13 which has a much later demographic rise in the BA
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#43
(05-11-2024, 07:47 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-10-2024, 09:47 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I believe the Nostratic tree is misleading, i don't think IE and Afro-Asiatic stem from the same root, they have nothing to do with each other.

Potentially there might have been an influence from still E-L618 Afro-Asiatic speaking community in Eastern Carpathians and influencing some wanderwords in early PIE like the name of cow/taurus, some numerical words like number seven etc, etc, etc.

Nostratic is not the key here. It's about the Semitic lineage. And most of all the coherence between the rise and spread of the pastoralists in the Southern Levant, the genetic and linguistic aspects thereof, with a time frame of 8000 YBP (6000 BC) >. That's the clue in my opinion.

The genetic effect is anyway the origin, the split of E-V22, which caused a tremendously large population jump!

Wim Penninx: ‘The population jumps of E-V22 are the oldest large population jump. If we look into details, it appears that we have two population jumps fairly close together: E-CTS567 (8300 ybp) and E-L1250 (7800 ybp) with a distance of 10 SNPs, of which 5 are in the yfull defined CombBED region. This means that the time difference between the two has some uncertain ranging from 500-800 years. Both population jumps have many descending lines. 

[Image: temp-Image-WTm-Pnb.avif]
The diagram above is the distribution in time excluding the European E1b-V13. This gives a better view on the different population jumps of the Afroasiatic branches.'
The green one is E-V22, you see the "big bang" in the timeframe 8500-6000 YBP. Imo not coincidental with 'The Revolutions in the Desert: The Rise of Mobile Pastoralism' (Rose). Better said, it is a clear manifestation of the rise of the pastoralists!

And that also includes the following. Zohar (1992): “The simultaneous appearance of mobile pastoralism and Semitic language does not necessarily mean that the two are connected but  the probability is very high. All the reasons combined seem to make a good case for the spread of probably relative small mobile groups of pastoralists speaking Old Semitic into the Near East."

Is there perhaps a similar diagram for E-V12?
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#44
(05-11-2024, 07:47 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-10-2024, 09:47 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I believe the Nostratic tree is misleading, i don't think IE and Afro-Asiatic stem from the same root, they have nothing to do with each other.

Potentially there might have been an influence from still E-L618 Afro-Asiatic speaking community in Eastern Carpathians and influencing some wanderwords in early PIE like the name of cow/taurus, some numerical words like number seven etc, etc, etc.

Nostratic is not the key here. It's about the Semitic lineage. And most of all the coherence between the rise and spread of the pastoralists in the Southern Levant, the genetic and linguistic aspects thereof, with a time frame of 8000 YBP (6000 BC) >. That's the clue in my opinion.

The genetic effect is anyway the origin, the split of E-V22, which caused a tremendously large population jump!

Wim Penninx: ‘The population jumps of E-V22 are the oldest large population jump. If we look into details, it appears that we have two population jumps fairly close together: E-CTS567 (8300 ybp) and E-L1250 (7800 ybp) with a distance of 10 SNPs, of which 5 are in the yfull defined CombBED region. This means that the time difference between the two has some uncertain ranging from 500-800 years. Both population jumps have many descending lines. 

[Image: temp-Image-WTm-Pnb.avif]
The diagram above is the distribution in time excluding the European E1b-V13. This gives a better view on the different population jumps of the Afroasiatic branches.'
The green one is E-V22, you see the "big bang" in the timeframe 8500-6000 YBP. Imo not coincidental with 'The Revolutions in the Desert: The Rise of Mobile Pastoralism' (Rose). Better said, it is a clear manifestation of the rise of the pastoralists!

And that also includes the following. Zohar (1992): “The simultaneous appearance of mobile pastoralism and Semitic language does not necessarily mean that the two are connected but  the probability is very high. All the reasons combined seem to make a good case for the spread of probably relative small mobile groups of pastoralists speaking Old Semitic into the Near East."


The consensus is that these groups didn't contribute significantly to Egypt. They seemed to have a larger presence in the Green Sahara, Sudan, East Africa.

Eventually they conquered the Levant and even moved into Lower Egypt, but that was in the Early Bronze Age (early 4th Millenium - c. 3700 BC in Egypt)
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#45
(05-12-2024, 12:08 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(05-11-2024, 07:47 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-10-2024, 09:47 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I believe the Nostratic tree is misleading, i don't think IE and Afro-Asiatic stem from the same root, they have nothing to do with each other.

Potentially there might have been an influence from still E-L618 Afro-Asiatic speaking community in Eastern Carpathians and influencing some wanderwords in early PIE like the name of cow/taurus, some numerical words like number seven etc, etc, etc.

Nostratic is not the key here. It's about the Semitic lineage. And most of all the coherence between the rise and spread of the pastoralists in the Southern Levant, the genetic and linguistic aspects thereof, with a time frame of 8000 YBP (6000 BC) >. That's the clue in my opinion.

The genetic effect is anyway the origin, the split of E-V22, which caused a tremendously large population jump!

Wim Penninx: ‘The population jumps of E-V22 are the oldest large population jump. If we look into details, it appears that we have two population jumps fairly close together: E-CTS567 (8300 ybp) and E-L1250 (7800 ybp) with a distance of 10 SNPs, of which 5 are in the yfull defined CombBED region. This means that the time difference between the two has some uncertain ranging from 500-800 years. Both population jumps have many descending lines. 

[Image: temp-Image-WTm-Pnb.avif]
The diagram above is the distribution in time excluding the European E1b-V13. This gives a better view on the different population jumps of the Afroasiatic branches.'
The green one is E-V22, you see the "big bang" in the timeframe 8500-6000 YBP. Imo not coincidental with 'The Revolutions in the Desert: The Rise of Mobile Pastoralism' (Rose). Better said, it is a clear manifestation of the rise of the pastoralists!

And that also includes the following. Zohar (1992): “The simultaneous appearance of mobile pastoralism and Semitic language does not necessarily mean that the two are connected but  the probability is very high. All the reasons combined seem to make a good case for the spread of probably relative small mobile groups of pastoralists speaking Old Semitic into the Near East."


The consensus is that these groups didn't contribute significantly to Egypt. They seemed to have a larger presence in the Green Sahara, Sudan, East Africa.

Eventually they conquered the Levant and even moved into Lower Egypt, but that was in the Early Bronze Age (early 4th Millenium - c. 3700 BC in Egypt)

Do I read a wish or a consensus? Wink 

I guess they already dropped in around 8000 YBP, see Allison Smith (2013) and more.

Ofer Bar-Yosef, Nile Valley-Levant interactions: An eclectic review (same bundle as Smith 2013). In the case of E-V22 and pastoralists, PPNC is of primary interest:
“The next phase of migration by farmers bringing goats and later sheep into Egypt took place after the “8200 cal BP cold event” (c.6200cal BC).

The Egyptian Neolithic that dates to the 6th millennium BC provides a wealth of evidence for the connections with the Levant partially due to inward migration of small groups as indicated by the genetic evidence (see Alison Smith, this volume).


The Levantine origins of the bifacial projectiles and knives were already suggested by more than one study (e.g. Wetterstrom 1993; Shirai 2010 andreferences therein). Movements of Levantine groups were probably the mechanism that brought cattle, goat and sheep to the Nile valley.”

Shayla Monroe, Stuart Tyson Smith , Sarah B. McClure, Pastoralism, hunting, and coexistence: Domesticated and wild bovids in Neolithic Sudan (2023):
“By 6000 BC, these Nile Valley subsistence strategies began to accommodate the initial influx of caprines from Southwest Asia (Wengrow et al., 2014)”


And that doesn't excludes later waves indeed!
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