The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans

[bolek]

There are some laws for the pathernal or patriarchal type of society.
1. They do not marry between themselves,  they have to   find their women from outside to avoid  incest..
2. The older men and women have higher status in such communities. So the new arrived woman will need to accept the language of her husband,  the mother and the brothers.
3. The daughters in IE community will not stay in the same house with their parrents - daughters will have to go outside and live in other houses - in the same vilage or elsewhere.
4. The Mother of the man has still lot of power, especially to control the wifes of her son,  to delegate tasks, to control the home and to educate the kids.
5. One man may have several women (wifes).  But the power of old woman is still there, doesn't matter how many wifes .
The mens in IE society are also some kind of solders, so they may need to go and fight.. But the home of IE family is generally controlled by the mother of such man. So this is the reason why the language is the same - because the mother of the man is controlling all.
Next rule:  all the sons stay in the same home with their parrents util the death of the Oldest man: who is the patriarch. 
Once the oldest man is dead - all the sons will have to go out and to establish their own homes.
Only the older son is allowed to stay in their mother's house and the oldest son is taking care for his old mother..
So these are the basic rules for the IE family,  I may have some mistakes in discribing this.  And there could be some differences from one IE group to another, but many of these rules were same or similar for the IE people..  And we know, that most of other European before IE were Matriarchal families.
In general these patriarchal system was very stable and IE communities grew faster compared to the others.

Yes, and to this we should add the importance of religion and poetry in IE societies. Because of religion and common myths expressed in poetry IE languages could last for millennia and be spoken over large territories.

[Riverman]

These are the haplogroups from the Lower Don group (later phase), very interesting:

J2a1a1a2b1b
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
R1b1a1b1b
R1b1a1b1b
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
n/a (female)
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
R1b1a1b1b
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
R1b1a1b
I2a1b1a2a2a


The I2a: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-L703/tree
R1b = R-Z2103 (R1b1a1b1b)

Its astonishing that a haplogroup which being now proven to be so extremely important for the early IE formation being so rare in moderns. Even though they participated in Lower Don, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya and Cernavoda among others.

We really need older Pre-Neolithic and early Neolithic samples from the whole Lower Don zone.

[Archetype0ne]

It took me quite a few hours of reading and re-reading... and it might look ugly... but I hope this helps others (and that I did not make any mistakes).


Cline SShi <-> DonVolga
SShi = Don-DniproHG + BPgroup
BPgroup = KhlopkovBugor + CHG/PVgroup
DonVolga = BPgroup + PVgroup
DonDniproEN =  BPgroup + PVgroup +ASH
Remotnoye = BPgroup + ASH (44.6%)
A: CoreYamnaya = SShi + Remotnoye
B: CoreYamnaya = Aknashen + BPgroup + Igren_o (EHG?)


Now...

Deconstructing A:
CoreYamnaya = ((Don-DniproHG +  (KhlopkovBugor + CHG/PVgroup)) + (( KhlopkovBugor + CHG/PVgroup) + ASH)

Deconstructing B:
CoreYamnaya = Aknashen + (KhlopkovBugor + CHG/PVgroup) + Igren_o

And the tournament results:



Assuming ASH as the standing for CHG, BPgroup as 50/50 CHG/EHG, and Igren_o as EHG, the numbers for CoreYamnaya make a lot of sense

21Aknashen  + 56BPgroup + 23Igren_o

Edit: Although I recall reading that BPgroup was a three way of Lower Volga + CHG + Central Asia, so it might not be exactly 50-50.

[old europe]

These are the haplogroups from the Lower Don group (later phase), very interesting:

J2a1a1a2b1b
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
R1b1a1b1b
R1b1a1b1b
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
n/a (female)
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
R1b1a1b1b
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
R1b1a1b
I2a1b1a2a2a


The I2a: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-L703/tree
R1b just R1b-M269

Its astonishing that a haplogroup which being now proven to be so extremely important for the early IE formation being so rare in moderns. Even though they participated in Lower Don, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya and Cernavoda among others.

These are lower Don eneolithic or Don Yamnaya?

[old europe]

These are the haplogroups from the Lower Don group (later phase), very interesting:

J2a1a1a2b1b
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
I2a1b1a2a2a
R1b1a1b1b
R1b1a1b1b
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
n/a (female)
n/a (female)
I2a1b1a2a2a
R1b1a1b1b
I2a1b1a2a2a
n/a (female)
R1b1a1b
I2a1b1a2a2a


The I2a: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-L703/tree
R1b just R1b-M269

Its astonishing that a haplogroup which being now proven to be so extremely important for the early IE formation being so rare in moderns. Even though they participated in Lower Don, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya and Cernavoda among others.

These are lower Don eneolithic or Don Yamnaya?

Wait a moment..... the presence of a j2a sample means that all these people spoke a caucasian language. Also they dected some pottery similar to Kelteminar so likely these  folks at the lower Don spoke a central asian language not a Euro HG one.
That is the new methodology.

[old europe]

Among the Ukranian HG which were obviously ancestral to the Dneper Don foragers there is also this

Mezine is a place within the modern country of Ukraine which has the most artifact finds of Paleolithic culture origin.[1][2][3][4] The Epigravettian[5] site is located on a bank of the Desna River in Novhorod-Siverskyi Raion of Chernihiv Oblast, northern Ukraine, near the village of Mezine.[6] The settlement is best known for an archaeological find of a set of bracelets engraved with marks possibly representing calendar lunar-cycles.[7] Also found near Mezine was the earliest known example of a swastika-like form, as part of a decorative object dated to 10,000 BCE. It was described (see references for illustrations) as an object carved from ivory mammoth tusks to resemble[8] an:

Ice age Bird ... with Inscribed Swastikas...[9]

The bird is understood as an inherently shamanistic animal, often being a symbol of the soul or of the spirit experienced in flight (from death).[10]

as everyone knows the swastica and the bird taking the soul in its migration are typical bantu/ afro asiatic cultural traits another indication that Ukraine HG were not ancetsral to PIEans

[Archetype0ne]

It is interesting that the earlier CHG already present in the region saw a decline in favor of Aknashen right before these Indo-Anatolian / Indo-European initial movements... I wonder what is up with these Aknashen, or if anybody has any sources on them?

The origins of Krivyansky on the Lower Don: a Seredniih Stih population with excess Caucasus-related ancestry

The Krivyansky individual does not fit the Remontnoye+SShi model of Table S 5 well (p=0.015) and it also does not fit the model of Table S 21 well (p=0.025). This individual is also unusual as it belonged to Y-haplogroup J2 suggesting Caucasus/West Asian connections. The results of the model tournament (Table S 22) show that relative to populations of the Dnipro-Don Serednii Stih and Golubaya Krinitsa, Krivyansky has an excess of CHG-related ancestry. The presence of this ancestry in the lower Don at a higher level than in the middle Don (at the GK1 subset of Golubaya Krinitsa parallels the situation of the Volga where CHG-related ancestry was higher in the lower Volga (at Berezhnovka) than in the middle Volga (Fig. S 2) and of the Caucasus where CHG-related ancestry in Maikop and (in slight excess Unakozovskaya) was higher in the North Caucasus than in the South Caucasus where the Aknashen earliest known Neolithic had seen its CHG-related ancestry diluted twice in Masis Blur and Areni-1 Neolithic and Chalcolithic populations. While CHG-related ancestry refers to the preNeolithic inhabitants of Georgia33 in the South Caucasus, it seems that it is in the triangle formed by the lower Don (at Krivyansky), the lower Volga (at Berezhnovka), and north Caucasus (at Unakozovskaya) that it remained a strong source of ancestry in the Eneolithic while CHG-related ancestry diminished upriver along both Don and Volga to the north, and across the Caucasus to the south.

We also explored 3-way models for Krivyansky after fixing CHG as one source (to account for this population’s excess CHG ancestry) and Ukraine_N as another (as a stand-in for the source that generates the Serednii Stih cline). All fitting models (Table S 23) involve some “eastern” ancestry (in addition to the CHG and Ukraine_N fixed sources; Table S 23). Three models have no losses in the tournament (Table S 23) and these involve Lower Volga-North Caucasus Eneolithic ancestry (BPgroup or PVgroup) or the SShi subset of Serednii Stih. Thus, Krivyansky appears like a population of “western” affinity (due to its Ukraine_N-related ancestry) but also “eastern” affinity (due to its Lower Volga-North Caucasus Eneolithicrelated ancestry) and also “southern” affinity (due to its CHG-related ancestry). As we will see further on, the people of the Serednii Stih and the Yamnaya share two of these ancestries but their southern source is related to Neolithic and post-Neolithic people of the Caucasus, not the much earlier CHG as is the case for Krivyansky.

[pegasus]

The labels are confusing, what is the Dnipro cline exactly ? Do they have BPgroup ancestry? Are they suggesting this BPgroup is what gave rise to Indo Anatolian languages by interacting with Aknashen type groups? Hope the coordinates come out today.

[bolek]

Among the Ukranian HG which were obviously ancestral to the Dneper Don foragers there is also this

Mezine is a place within the modern country of Ukraine which has the most artifact finds of Paleolithic culture origin.[1][2][3][4] The Epigravettian[5] site is located on a bank of the Desna River in Novhorod-Siverskyi Raion of Chernihiv Oblast, northern Ukraine, near the village of Mezine.[6] The settlement is best known for an archaeological find of a set of bracelets engraved with marks possibly representing calendar lunar-cycles.[7] Also found near Mezine was the earliest known example of a swastika-like form, as part of a decorative object dated to 10,000 BCE. It was described (see references for illustrations) as an object carved from ivory mammoth tusks to resemble[8] an:

Ice age Bird ... with Inscribed Swastikas...[9]

The bird is understood as an inherently shamanistic animal, often being a symbol of the soul or of the spirit experienced in flight (from death).[10]

as everyone knows the swastica and the bird taking the soul in its migration are typical bantu/ afro asiatic cultural traits another indication that Ukraine HG were not ancetsral to PIEans

 I don't know much about PIE religion. But I know Indo-Slavic beliefs quite well and there the bird was the symbol of the soul, a goose or swan (Vedic ‘hamsa’ or ‘hansa’ is etymologically related to Slavic gens/gǫsь) referred to the sun and to the human soul traveling to the sun after death.

[Archetype0ne]

The labels are confusing, what is the Dnipro cline exactly ? Do they have BPgroup ancestry? Are they suggesting this BPgroup is what gave rise to Indo Anatolian languages by interacting with Aknashen type groups? Hope the coordinates come out today.

There is this Sredni Stih cline between Don-Volga that is BP + PV groups on the one end, towards the Don-Dnipro where it intermixed with additional Don-Dnipro Hg. BPgroup is present in both as is PV.  However the Don-Dnipro in the Eneolithic saw additional Aknashen admixture.  They call this the Srednih Stih cline.

They present this scenario in page 182 (183 of the PDF supplement).

Edit: It seems that they tried to model Core Yamnaya with this Don-Dnipro mix of BP + PV + Don-Dnipro HG, and they could not without adding an additional source of Aknashen (possibly through Maykop) + BP, for which they argue Remotnoye is the stand-in.

This helps visualize it

[pegasus]

The labels are confusing, what is the Dnipro cline exactly ? Do they have BPgroup ancestry? Are they suggesting this BPgroup is what gave rise to Indo Anatolian languages by interacting with Aknashen type groups? Hope the coordinates come out today.

There is this Sredni Stih cline between Don-Volga that is BP + PV groups on the one end, towards the Don-Dnipro where it intermixed with additional Don-Dnipro Hg. BPgroup is present in both as is PV.  However the Don-Dnipro in the Eneolithic saw additional Aknashen admixture.  They call this the Srednih Stih cline.

They present this scenario in page 182 (183 of the PDF supplement).

Edit: It seems that they tried to model Core Yamnaya with this Don-Dnipro mix of BP + PV + Don-Dnipro HG, and they could not without adding an additional source of Aknashen (possibly through Maykop) + BP, for which they argue Remotnoye is the stand-in.

This helps visualize it

So GAC ancestry is absent in Yamnaya and its this Aknashen type, so basically BP Group ie Eneolithic Steppe types are the "PIE" since they are the vector of this ancestry for Indo Anatolians, is that what they are implying?  Thanks for clarifying! 

My second question is then , if Corded Ware stems from these Dnipro groups, where is the R1a?  I am astounded by the lack of R1a in the samples its overwhelmingly R1b.

[J Man]

The new Eneolithic era I11828/I31755 J2a (J-M319) sample from the Lower Don Krivyanskiy-9 grave 19 site is really interesting. According to the paper autosomal wise this sample is genetically quite close to Yamnaya although of course he pre-dates Yamnaya. It will be very interesting to see this sample's G25 results once the data comes out.

Also this sample is described as being similar to "Serednii Stih" samples in terms of burial pose, artifacts and date and his CHG like ancestry is apparently more similar to Mesolithic CHG compared to Aknashen.

Anyway interesting to see a J2a sample from the Eneolithic Steppe context.


I11828 6257 Krivyansky Russia T2a1b J-M319 J2a1a1a2b1b

That sample is very significant, because I speculated in that past that around the Lower Don, where we have a higher cultural development and see Southern inputs in the archaeological context, leading up to Sredny Stog, that there might be lineages involved in this fusion, which didn't make it due to later founder events after the takeover of the EGH clans.

That sample is the first evidence for this hypothesis being correct, that the diversity might be highest in the Lower Don region.

Those sites are relevant for the issue:
Krivyansky:Rostov Oblast, Lower Don group
Mariupol:Mariupol Neolithic Necropolis

Its a shame they got just one site from the Lower Don group from a too late time period, but at least one, better than none. Are there more samples from that site with yDNA assignment? I find the table not very neat.

Thus, while we can conclude that low
amounts of European farmer ancestry entered the UNHG population (from the western neighbors of the
NPR hunter-gatherers), it is possible that for at least some of them there was CHG-related ancestry as
well (from the east). Such ancestry was also detected in the GK1 subset at Golubaya Krinitsa Neolithic in
the Middle Don and at the Krivyansky Eneolithic (ref.3) in the Lower Don and may have thus extended
further west into the Dnipro region.

One of the R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a3a2 is from Mariupol (I27983).

Also very important is the "Proto-Yamna", so still no developed Yamnaya, from Bulgaria, which is R1a1a1 (R-M417)

I1456 DUR1 Durankulak, Kurgan
F, burial 15 (main burial)2

This debunks the idea of "R-Z2103 elites" only in the burials, and shows that R1a came form a different subset of only Yamna-related (!) people.

The developed Yamnaya are, like usual, nearly all R-Z2103.

Yes indeed it is both important and very interesting....I think that the only sample from pre-Bronze time from Krivyanskiy-9 so far is this Eneolithic J-M319 sample that I mentioned. There are some I2a from Mariupol though and also later Bronze Age Yamnaya era samples from the Krivyanskiy-9 site and they are all or at least mostly R1b I think.

[Archetype0ne]

The labels are confusing, what is the Dnipro cline exactly ? Do they have BPgroup ancestry? Are they suggesting this BPgroup is what gave rise to Indo Anatolian languages by interacting with Aknashen type groups? Hope the coordinates come out today.

snip

So GAC ancestry is absent in Yamnaya and its this Aknashen type, so basically BP Group ie Eneolithic Steppe types are the "PIE" since they are the vector of this ancestry for Indo Anatolians, is that what they are implying?  Thanks for clarifying! 

My second question is then , if Corded Ware stems from these Dnipro groups, where is the R1a?  I am astounded by the lack of R1a in the samples its overwhelmingly R1b.

The question is way beyond my knowledge, but the supplement does mention this:

Finally, we also dated the admixture in the Corded Ware complex, a population estimated to have ~3/4 of Yamnaya-related ancestry.1 It has recently been discovered that this population shares a high rate of IBD segments with the people of the Globular Amphora farming culture35 who may thus have been responsible for the remaining ~1/4 of (non-steppe) ancestry. It has been estimated that admixture in diverse Corded Ware populations occurred in a narrow date of ~3000-2900BCE.12 We combine 86 Corded Ware individuals from the literature2,6,11,22,30,36-43 and date them using the Core Yamnaya as one source and 27 Globular Amphora individuals11,30,42,44,45 as the other. The obtained estimate is 12.8±0.6 generations corresponding to a date of 2933±17 BCE (Fig. S 8). This date is younger than those of either the Don or BMRS Yamnaya and the admixture in the Corded Ware occurred after the Yamnaya expansion had been ongoing for centuries. The Corded Ware also shares IBD segments with the Yamnaya35 and thus its own expansion likely followed an admixture event during the 2900s BCE of a Yamnaya population with a Globular Amphora-related one.

Not sure what that says about the lack of R1a? But this is the only reference to Globular Amphora I could find.

Corded Ware is referenced far more, especially in regards to R1a, but I feel I am spamming this thread a bit too much. Sorry fora.

[Jerome]

The labels are confusing, what is the Dnipro cline exactly ? Do they have BPgroup ancestry? Are they suggesting this BPgroup is what gave rise to Indo Anatolian languages by interacting with Aknashen type groups? Hope the coordinates come out today.

There is this Sredni Stih cline between Don-Volga that is BP + PV groups on the one end, towards the Don-Dnipro where it intermixed with additional Don-Dnipro Hg. BPgroup is present in both as is PV.  However the Don-Dnipro in the Eneolithic saw additional Aknashen admixture.  They call this the Srednih Stih cline.

They present this scenario in page 182 (183 of the PDF supplement).

Edit: It seems that they tried to model Core Yamnaya with this Don-Dnipro mix of BP + PV + Don-Dnipro HG, and they could not without adding an additional source of Aknashen (possibly through Maykop) + BP, for which they argue Remotnoye is the stand-in.

This helps visualize it

So GAC ancestry is absent in Yamnaya and its this Aknashen type, so basically BP Group ie Eneolithic Steppe types are the "PIE" since they are the vector of this ancestry for Indo Anatolians, is that what they are implying?  Thanks for clarifying! 

My second question is then , if Corded Ware stems from these Dnipro groups, where is the R1a?  I am astounded by the lack of R1a in the samples its overwhelmingly R1b.

From a fine-print,they aren't claiming BP groups to be PIE,but rather the general 'CLV' people.
BP is just a proxy to them from what it seems.

What they are considering PIE is what they call as 'proto-yamnaya' which also gave ancestry to sredny stog (bringing aknashen type Ancestry into sredny stog)
They date this Ancestry influx and mixing to around 4200-4000 BC,same time at which proto-yamnaya/Yamnaya recived aknashen Ancestry according to the DATES output in their supplementery data

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Another quote from the paper about Corded Ware

A more western origin of the Core Yamnaya would also bring their latest ancestors in proximity to the place of origin of the Corded Ware complex whose origin is itself in question but must have certainly been in the area of central-eastern Europe occupied by the Globular Amphora culture west of the Core Yamnaya. The Corded Ware population, which could trace a large part of its ancestry to the Yamnaya, was formed by admixture concurrent with the Yamnaya expansion (Extended Data Fig. 2d), shared segments of IBD proving connections within a shallow genealogical timeframe, and had a balance of ancestral components from the Caucasus and eastern Europe indistinguishable from the Yamnaya. In combination, these lines of evidence suggests that it  was formed indeed by early 3rd millennium BCE admixture with Yamnaya, or, at the very least, genetically Yamnaya ancestors that need not have been Yamnaya in the archaeological sense. The geographical homelands of the Corded Ware and Yamnaya would then conceivably be in geographical proximity to allow for their synchronous emergence and shared ancestry. The Dnipro-Don area of the Serednii Stih culture fits the genetic data, as it explains the ancestry of the nascent Core Yamnaya and places them in precisely the area from which both Corded Ware, and Southeastern European Yamnaya (in the west) and the Don Yamnaya (in the east) could have emerged by admixture of the Core Yamnaya with European farmers and UNHG respectively.

Serednii Stih=Sredny Stog

Phase II (according to Telegin, middle 3rd millennium BC) is represented by the Sredny Stog complexes of the Deriivka-Moliukhovyi Buhor type that used corded ware pottery which may have originated there.  Wiki

Deriivka site:   Located on the right bank of the Omelnik, a tributary of the Dnieper, and is the largest site within the Sredny Stog cultural complex, with an area of about 2,000 square meters (22,000 square feet). The Eneolithic part of the Deriivka archaeological complex includes a settlement and a cemetery. Other Sredny Stog sites include Igren-8 and Moliukhovyi Buhor...on the Dnieper River, as well as Oleksandriia in the Oskil River in eastern Ukraine. 
https://academia--lab-com.translate.goog..._tr_pto=sc

These sites are listed on this map from the paper (circled in red)