The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans

[ArmandoR1b]

One of the R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a3a2 is from Mariupol (I27983).

Mariupol (I27983) is definitely not reliably R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a3a2  ( R-CTS4466 ). It is a false positive maybe due to contamination. In the section 3.4. A Corded Ware connection they state "While I27983’s contamination raises concerns about its use in comparative analysis, its proximity to the central European Bronze Age is noteworthy"

[ArmandoR1b]

Once the BAM files are published the following will be very interesting:

I4627_enhanced
I12498_enhanced
I8405_enhanced
I8411_enhanced

Especially so I8411 dated to 5323-4610 calBCE with excellent coverage and derived for R-P297. I am hoping to find more reliable derived downstream SNPs. It is young enough to be derived for most of the phylogenetic equivalents to R-M269.

[old europe]

courtesy of eurogenes a possible model for the western route for anatolian languages

left pops:
Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG1
Turkey_Buyukkaya_EC
"CernavodaB" (lower steppe, higher UkrN/ EEF)

(same right pops)

best coefficients: 0.679 0.321
std. errors: 0.075 0.075
tail prob 0.291599


Mbuti.DG
Ethiopia_4500BP
USA_Anzick_realigned.SG
Russia_Kostenki14
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
China_Tianyuan
Turkey_Epipaleolithic
Serbia_EN_Starcevo
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
Mongolia_North_N
Russia_AfontovaGora3
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Luxembourg_Loschbour
Jordan_PPNB
Turkey_PPNA
Iran_HajjiFiruz_N
Azerbaijan_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic2 (Vonuchka, PG2001) <-> CernavodaA (high steppe cluster)
Turkey_TellKurdu_EC

[Kale]

Using the closer in space and time Ovaoren_EBA as a baseline, instead of Buyukkaya.
right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Anatolia_Barcin_N.SG', 'Anatolia_Boncuklu_N.SG', 'Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG', 'Morocco_OUB002_Epipaleolithic.SG', 'Morocco_SKH001_MN.SG', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'Bichon.SG', 'Sweden_StoraForvar_HG.SG', 'Ukraine_Vovnigi_NHG.SG', 'RUS_Arkhangelsk_HG.SG', 'Botai.SG', 'Afanasievo_KarasukIII.SG', 'Yamnaya_Kazakhstan_Karagash.SG', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

MA2203.SG
Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA.SG 0.888318 0.126024 7.04879
Ukraine_Kartal_Cernavoda_B 0.111682 0.126024 0.886199
Tail: 0.29

MA2203.SG = Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA.SG
Tail: 0.28

That was anti-climactic.

[BowFX]

Using the closer in space and time Ovaoren_EBA as a baseline, instead of Buyukkaya.
right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Anatolia_Barcin_N.SG', 'Anatolia_Boncuklu_N.SG', 'Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG', 'Morocco_OUB002_Epipaleolithic.SG', 'Morocco_SKH001_MN.SG', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'Bichon.SG', 'Sweden_StoraForvar_HG.SG', 'Ukraine_Vovnigi_NHG.SG', 'RUS_Arkhangelsk_HG.SG', 'Botai.SG', 'Afanasievo_KarasukIII.SG', 'Yamnaya_Kazakhstan_Karagash.SG', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

MA2203.SG
Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA.SG  0.888318 0.126024 7.04879
Ukraine_Kartal_Cernavoda_B 0.111682 0.126024 0.886199
Tail: 0.29

MA2203.SG = Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA.SG
Tail: 0.28

That was anti-climactic.

Anti-climactic as in?

[Georgios]

Speaking of R-PF7562, we now have the oldest sample with that haplogroup from a Yamnaya burial in Romania. The previous oldest was a non-RC dated sample from MBA/LBA Crete.

There is another person R1b-PF7562 in this paper:

I20298 4350-3950 BCE Russia_Kulmetovskiy_N Kulmetovskiy-Grot (Chelyabinsk Oblast, Katav-Ivanovsky District) Russia R1b R-BY95094 R1b1a1b2b

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY95094/

[pelop]

Speaking of R-PF7562, we now have the oldest sample with that haplogroup from a Yamnaya burial in Romania. The previous oldest was a non-RC dated sample from MBA/LBA Crete.

There is another person R1b-PF7562 in this paper:

I20298 4350-3950 BCE Russia_Kulmetovskiy_N Kulmetovskiy-Grot (Chelyabinsk Oblast, Katav-Ivanovsky District) Russia R1b R-BY95094 R1b1a1b2b

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY95094/

This is a very recent branch, so it can't belong there. Hopefully it's still PF7562 but we have to wait for the samples.

Given the dating of the sample (4350-3950 BCE) it's highly unlikely to be PF7562 since the branch has a TMRCA of ~3000 BC.

[Ebizur]

Speaking of R-PF7562, we now have the oldest sample with that haplogroup from a Yamnaya burial in Romania. The previous oldest was a non-RC dated sample from MBA/LBA Crete.

There is another person R1b-PF7562 in this paper:

I20298 4350-3950 BCE Russia_Kulmetovskiy_N Kulmetovskiy-Grot (Chelyabinsk Oblast, Katav-Ivanovsky District) Russia R1b R-BY95094 R1b1a1b2b

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY95094/

This is a very recent branch, so it can't belong there. Hopefully it's still PF7562 but we have to wait for the samples.

Given the dating of the sample (4350-3950 BCE) it's highly unlikely to be PF7562 since the branch has a TMRCA of ~3000 BC.

When dealing with archaeological specimens in particular, the estimated time of formation (time of MRCA with nearest outgroup) is more relevant than the estimated TMRCA of extant members of the clade in question (e.g. R1b-PF7562) because we do not yet know in which order the various SNPs that are shared by extant members the clade have occurred chronologically. If the tested SNP is one of the first in its block to have occurred, then the specimen may be positive for that particular SNP but negative for some number of the remainder of the SNPs in its block (i.e. SNPs shared in common among all extant members of the subclade).

On the other hand, judging from FTDNA's current phylogeny, BY95094 should mark a very young subclade (TMRCA approximately 757 [95% CI 978 - 581] ybp) of R-M269 > R-PF7562, so I guess you are probably right that there should have been some sort of error.

[Vinitharya]

I assume there had to be another Mycenaean founding haplogroup besides R-PF7562; R1b as a whole is the third-most common haplogroup in Greece (behind J2a and E1b1b) and PF7562 is not even a more populous branch of R1b. Celtic languages were spread by R1b and Celts have a lot of it; Slavic is a family spread by R1a and Slavs have a lot of R1a. Finnic languages were spread by N1c and Finns have a lot of N1c. Was it a situation like with the Hungarians where there was a period where the male population was decimated and the area repopulated by its neighbors? While Albanians have a lot of E1b1b, neither they nor the Slavs have a lot of J2a, so it appears in Greece, unlike Northern Europe, there was a lot of Neolithic survival, at any rate.

[targaryen]

What we need now is IBD evidence to knock these theories out of the park. If we can get some steppe samples that show IBD with Proto-Myceneans, we can verify Greek ancestral origin.

Kristiansen mentioned a new "Bronze Age in the Mediterranean" paper. Hopefully it will give us more insight.

[Georgios]

Herodotus wrote that the Hellenes were originally few in number:

Hdt. 1.56.2
He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far.

Hdt. 1.57.3
If, then, all the Pelasgian stock spoke so, then the Attic nation, being of Pelasgian blood, must have changed its language too at the time when it became part of the Hellenes.

Hdt. 1.58.1
But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex...99.01.0126

[targaryen]

Herodotus wrote that the Hellenes were originally few in number:

Hdt. 1.56.2
He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far.

Hdt. 1.57.3
If, then, all the Pelasgian stock spoke so, then the Attic nation, being of Pelasgian blood, must have changed its language too at the time when it became part of the Hellenes.

Hdt. 1.58.1
But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex...99.01.0126

The crazy thing about this is, if true, would be the only historical source referring to EEFs as an ethnic group.

[alanarchae]

According wiki 6/37 (16%) of the meaningfully defined Mycenaean yDNA are R1b. And seems that 5/6 of the R1b are simply not further resolved. My guess is most of them will be M269, likely mostly L23 and it has to be suspected Z2103 was prominent. I don’t think 16% R1b is by any means negligible. And few people think that steppe invaders of greece were unadmixed or that they were ever anything like a majority in most of Greece.

No proof as yet but the most likely of the autosomal DNA origins of the steppe component is western (unlike to be CW!) and of course that’d would almost certainly have come to Greece via the Balkans. The likely date is by/before 2300BC and perhaps linked to renewed steppe-balkans contact c.2500BC. It’s long been suggested there is a catacomb link. AFAIK Catacomb yDNA to date has all been R1b but correct me if i’m wrong.

[alanarchae]

Herodotus wrote that the Hellenes were originally few in number:

Hdt. 1.56.2
He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far.

Hdt. 1.57.3
If, then, all the Pelasgian stock spoke so, then the Attic nation, being of Pelasgian blood, must have changed its language too at the time when it became part of the Hellenes.

Hdt. 1.58.1
But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex...99.01.0126

The crazy thing about this is, if true, would be the only historical source referring to EEFs as an ethnic group.

the Pelasgians are fascinating. It’s a pity the records are rather garbled with regards to them. However the idea they were pre IE substrate feels plausible. It’s interesting that they are sometimes compared with the Etruscans who were of course a non IE group (though I don’t think they literally derive from each other).

[pelop]

I assume there had to be another Mycenaean founding haplogroup besides R-PF7562; R1b as a whole is the third-most common haplogroup in Greece (behind J2a and E1b1b) and PF7562 is not even a more populous branch of R1b. Celtic languages were spread by R1b and Celts have a lot of it; Slavic is a family spread by R1a and Slavs have a lot of R1a. Finnic languages were spread by N1c and Finns have a lot of N1c. Was it a situation like with the Hungarians where there was a period where the male population was decimated and the area repopulated by its neighbors? While Albanians have a lot of E1b1b, neither they nor the Slavs have a lot of J2a, so it appears in Greece, unlike Northern Europe, there was a lot of Neolithic survival, at any rate.

Macrohaplogroup statistics and frequencies for I2, J2a, R1b, etc aren't useful, only specific branches matter in the historical timeframes we're speaking about. There's no indication that the frequency of J2a in modern Greeks is due to "Neolithic survival", for example.