WHG and Archaeological Cultures - a question?

[Kaltmeister]

no there is a clear cut division. Full paleo euros like WHG have only been found with I lines while R1b WHG are always ANE admixed and not by chance you find R1b only at the intersection of WHG and ANE like the eastern baltic and the Iron Gates/ Ukraine HG samples

I don't think your answer is very helpful here. We have very ANE rich I2-EHGs from the Norwegian coast, 12.000 years old. And Villabruna, the reference WHG from the Lazaridis paper, is R1b.


  Steigen.JPG (Size: 24.23 KB / Downloads: 77)

[old europe]

no there is a clear cut division. Full paleo euros like WHG have only been found with I lines while R1b WHG are always ANE admixed and not by chance you find R1b only at the intersection of WHG and ANE like the eastern baltic and the Iron Gates/ Ukraine HG samples

I don't think your answer is very helpful here. We have very ANE rich I2-EHGs from the Norwegian coast, 12.000 years old. And Villabruna, the reference WHG from the Lazaridis paper, is R1b.

you have to learn this: I lines in Europe were found in Krems already in 31kya. I do not think they were brought by any ANE/EGH. We can find R1b P312 samples in southern europe almost completely EEF like but it is clear that they did not originate with EEF.
Also if I is an ANE lineage why we do not see it in heavily admixed ANE populations like siberian, paleo americans, central asia ecc. we see EHG with I2 ( Norway meso, Ukraine HG ) only in WHG rich EHG . Guess what

[Kaltmeister]

you have to learn this: I lines in Europe were found in Krems already in 31kya. I do not think they were brought by any ANE/EGH. We can find R1b P312 samples in southern europe almost completely EEF like but it is clear that they did not originate with EEF.
Also if I is an ANE lineage why we do not see it in heavily admixed ANE populations like siberian, paleo americans, central asia ecc. we see EHG with I2 ( Norway meso, Ukraine HG ) only in WHG rich EHG . Guess what

12.000 years ago I2-WHGs initially entered Scandinavia from the south. The picture I posted is taken from the study "Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation", Günther et al. It says that at the same time an EHG rich population lived in the north, they assume an origin in the east. Steigen and Hummervikholmen are the only examples they have for this northern population, and both are I2. All Y-haplogroups found at that time in Scandinavia are derivates of I2.

Obviously the uniparental lines parted much earlier - between 31k and 12k years there was enough time to spread. Refering to I2, we have a northern, EHG rich group and a southern, WHG rich group. And we have early R and pre-R in Yana and Mal'ta, while all early R1b and R1a finds are from Europe. The relevant diversification in this affair is EHG-WHG, not I2-R1b. This is why I say that the uniparentals are not helpful here, we don't have enough samples from these times to develop a clear picture. So, in this case, it makes more sense to look at the admixture situation, and that is what I am trying to do here.

[old europe]

you have to learn this: I lines in Europe were found in Krems already in 31kya. I do not think they were brought by any ANE/EGH. We can find R1b P312 samples in southern europe almost completely EEF like but it is clear that they did not originate with EEF.
Also if I is an ANE lineage why we do not see it in heavily admixed ANE populations like siberian, paleo americans, central asia ecc. we see EHG with I2 ( Norway meso, Ukraine HG ) only in WHG rich EHG . Guess what

12.000 years ago I2-WHGs initially entered Scandinavia from the south. The picture I posted is taken from the study "Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation", Günther et al. It says that at the same time an EHG rich population lived in the north, they assume an origin in the east. Steigen and Hummervikholmen are the only examples they have for this northern population, and both are I2. All Y-haplogroups found at that time in Scandinavia are derivates of I2.

Obviously the uniparental lines parted much earlier - between 31k and 12k years there was enough time to spread. Refering to I2, we have a northern, EHG rich group and a southern, WHG rich group. And we have early R and pre-R in Yana and Mal'ta, while all early R1b and R1a finds are from Europe. The relevant diversification in this affair is EHG-WHG, not I2-R1b. This is why I say that the uniparentals are not helpful here, we don't have enough samples from these times to develop a clear picture. So, in this case, it makes more sense to look at the admixture situation, and that is what I am trying to do here.

EHG is ANE + WHG.
WHG and ANE probably met in Ukraine than EGH dna leaked west ( Iron Gates and Villabruna for example ) and north

[Kale]

This talk of WHG being a mix of paleo-Euro and ANE is missing the crucial component that reduces paleo-Euro affinity and increases Near-Eastern affinity.
Mbuti.DG Yana_UP.SG Kostenki14 Italy_AreneCandide_HG -0.00053 -0.89 813242
Mbuti.DG Yana_UP.SG Muierii1 Italy_AreneCandide_HG -0.00004 -0.06 829874
Mbuti.DG Yana_UP.SG Gravettian_KremsVestonice Italy_AreneCandide_HG -0.00086 -1.83 783109
Mbuti.DG Yana_UP.SG GoyetQ116_1 Italy_AreneCandide_HG -0.00159 -2.66 614212
Mbuti.DG Yana_UP.SG MA1.SG Italy_AreneCandide_HG -0.00243 -4.10 592001