WHG and Archaeological Cultures - a question?

[East Anglian]

Please do excuse my old brain and confusion.  I believe that when you do not understand, that you sometimes need to hold up your hand and say so.

My question regards WHG.

As a people rather than as a genetic component, who were they?

1. Early Mesolithic in Western Europe?
   
2. More broadly Mesolithic?
   
3. Creswellian Technology or / and Hamburgian?
   
4. Late Madalenian?
   
5. Solutrean?
   
6. Epigravettian?
   
7. Western Gravettian?
   
8. Eastern Gravettian?
   
9. Aurignacian?
   
10. A combination of the above (please state)?
    
11. All of the above?
    
12. A genetic component that doesn't pin on to any archaeological population?
    

Please put an old man out of his misery.

[East Anglian]

Is this incorrect? as a blog post?

Genetics

Let me first sum up the whole Upper Palaeolithic story according to Ancient DNA.


We have established that the Aurignacians had descended from Basal Eurasian (in South West  Asia or further north among descendants?) when they split from ANE (Ancient North Eurasian). An early expansion into Western Europe first occurred circa 43,000 years ago, but a volcanic event in Italy may have terminated this occupation, with it resuming afresh circa 37,000 years ago.  They had since admixed with Neanderthals, and on average had 4-5% Neanderthal DNA with long segments. Neanderthals were likely still present in Western Europe, when the Aurignacians arrived there.


Through all of these Upper Palaeolithic cultures, prey species, conditions, and temperatures varied across the entire Eurasian range, with woodlands sometimes forming in Iberia, as opposed the the great Mammoth Steppe further east. Consequently, cultures and perhaps genomes divided into western and eastern blocks over time.


After 33,000 years ago, the Gravettians arrive from the North East, to replace the Aurignacians. Pushed by worsening climatic conditions, they also divided into west and east. Some descendants or relatives of the Aurignacians must have still been surviving, for Genetic studies suggest that during this period of stress, that the original Gravettians were in turn replaced by people who had more Aurignacian-like DNA. The technology and the artefact culture did not evidence this reversal of population.


Last Glacial Maximum passes, and 17,000 years ago, the Magdalenian Culture arises. The population behind this change were not so much the Solutrean of the west, but the people of the Epigravettian of Italy and the East. And they carry Aurignacian DNA. Very late, the Creswellian Culture develops in Britain, along with the Hamburgian around 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.


That brings me up to date with the Western Hunter-Gatherers and the approach of the Holocene.


WHG as a genetic component


So which of these groups did this component descend from?


Chasing this up brings me back to:
Palaeogenomics of Upper Palaeolithic to Neolithic European hunter-gatherers. Nature March 2023. Posth, Yu, Galichi, etal.


In this study, the authors found that WHG ancestry could be located into the Epigravettian genome. It appears that hunter-gatherers had moved up primarily from the eastern and southern refuges to reach places like Britain. I am tempted to propose that these same people were responsible both for the Creswellian points of Britain, and for its Earlier Mesolithic population. I look forward to more sequencing.


WHG haplogroups so far identified


yDNA are I2a1 (I-M26) and R1b1a1a (R-M7)
mtDNA are U (mainly U5, U2 and U4)


Were the Earlier Mesolithic people of Britain related to thos associated with the Creswellian points? Possibly. Or they could represent a fresh migration most likely from the descendants of the Epigravettian of SE Europe, possibly with admixture from  fresh populations crossing a dry Aegean from SW Asia.

[Kale]

If this helps at all, the most 'pure' WHG are those of the Italian Epigravettian. Those in Western Europe have traces of Magdelanian ancestry and those in Eastern Europe have elevated levels of ANE and also ancestry similar to Epipaleolithic Anatolians. So to solve WHG you basically need to solve Italian Epigravettians. There are a number of different ways to model them, but the 'standard model' at this point would be primarily Gravettians of the broadly Vestonice/KremsWachtberg/Ostuni/Paglicci genre, with a large chunk of Georgia_UP (Dzudzuana), and smaller contributions of ANE and Magdelanian.

[ph2ter]

WHG are Western hunter gatherers from palaeolithic to copper age. This label is used for all kinds of Europeans before the introduction of the Anatolian farmers.
In Eastern Europe there were also Eastern hunter gatherers. They were genetically shifted towards Siberian hunter gatherers.

[TanTin]

WHG are very interesting mixture of Paleo-Europeans with Central Asia (ANE).
The most interesting is that we have some Paleo_europeans who are not WHG...
To be WHG, they need to have some admixture with ANE people..
No need to give here exact examples.
There are some Europeans and Anatolian people near the same time. However only those who have ANE are considered as WHG..
Why is it like this? Ask Lazaridis.

[Kaltmeister]

WHG are very interesting mixture of Paleo-Europeans with Central Asia (ANE).
The most interesting is that we have some Paleo_europeans who are not WHG...
To be WHG, they need to have some admixture with ANE people..
No need to give here exact examples.
There are some Europeans and Anatolian people near the same time.  However only those who have ANE are considered as WHG..
Why is it like this? Ask Lazaridis.

It has also been stated that EHG is a mixture of WHG and mainly ANE. So I wonder what would be the relationship between WHG, EHG and ANE.

WHG turns up about 14000 years ago, oldest finds in northern Italy. It has been assumed to have some oriental admixture, but if I remember right its origin remains an open, unsolved question. This is the first time I hear they also have an ANE admixture, and I wonder where they collected this. Do you consider it possible that WHG is the result of an ANE/EHG migration into Europe, layering a local population?

[TanTin]

WHG are very interesting mixture of Paleo-Europeans with Central Asia (ANE).
The most interesting is that we have some Paleo_europeans who are not WHG...
To be WHG, they need to have some admixture with ANE people..
No need to give here exact examples.
There are some Europeans and Anatolian people near the same time.  However only those who have ANE are considered as WHG..
Why is it like this? Ask Lazaridis.

It has also been stated that EHG is a mixture of WHG and mainly ANE. So I wonder what would be the relationship between WHG, EHG and ANE.

WHG turns up about 14000 years ago, oldest finds in northern Italy. It has been assumed to have some oriental admixture, but if I remember right its origin remains an open, unsolved question. This is the first time I hear they also have an ANE admixture, and I wonder where they collected this. Do you consider it possible that WHG is the result of an ANE/EHG migration into Europe, layering a local population?

ANE is the only component that is different from other Paleo-Europeans..This is how I can separate WHG from non-WHG.  In general EHG - WHG are on the same line. EHG have more ANE than WHG.  But they form a line, clide.
On the other side: WHG have more paleo-European compared to EHG.. So it is just additional dimention where we may go deeper.. But who are the best examples of WHG ?
 The best WHG are those who have the max on paleo-European +  ANE..
Regardint ANE: we have better examples from East Asia, IUP , central Asia.. Regarding Paleo-Europe - it is more difficult, because most of the paleo-Europe samples already have a good amount of ANE..However there are many examples of ancient europeans without ANE.. Of course those who came from Anatholia don't have that much ANE. But there were also some europeans without ANE.. This is my claim.  There are no WHG found on the Balkans.. (exept some later newcommers at Iron Gates) .
It is the ANE component that will move some paleo-europeans to be WHG..  ANd I can prove this..  May be the best way to prove this is to provide a list of the snips that are defining for WHG.   I can also work on this to provide such list of snips for WHG.

[Sephesakueu]

WHG are very interesting mixture of Paleo-Europeans with Central Asia (ANE).
The most interesting is that we have some Paleo_europeans who are not WHG...
To be WHG, they need to have some admixture with ANE people..
No need to give here exact examples.
There are some Europeans and Anatolian people near the same time.  However only those who have ANE are considered as WHG..
Why is it like this? Ask Lazaridis.

It has also been stated that EHG is a mixture of WHG and mainly ANE. So I wonder what would be the relationship between WHG, EHG and ANE.

WHG turns up about 14000 years ago, oldest finds in northern Italy. It has been assumed to have some oriental admixture, but if I remember right its origin remains an open, unsolved question. This is the first time I hear they also have an ANE admixture, and I wonder where they collected this. Do you consider it possible that WHG is the result of an ANE/EHG migration into Europe, layering a local population?

ANE is the only component that is different from other Paleo-Europeans..This is how I can separate WHG from non-WHG.  In general EHG - WHG are on the same line. EHG have more ANE than WHG.  But they form a line, clide.
On the other side: WHG have more paleo-European compared to EHG.. So it is just additional dimention where we may go deeper.. But who are the best examples of WHG ?
 The best WHG are those who have the max on paleo-European +  ANE..
Regardint ANE: we have better examples from East Asia, IUP , central Asia.. Regarding Paleo-Europe - it is more difficult, because most of the paleo-Europe samples already have a good amount of ANE..However there are many examples of ancient europeans without ANE.. Of course those who came from Anatholia don't have that much ANE. But there were also some europeans without ANE.. This is my claim.  There are no WHG found on the Balkans.. (exept some later newcommers at Iron Gates) .
It is the ANE component that will move some paleo-europeans to be WHG..  ANd I can prove this..  May be the best way to prove this is to provide a list of the snips that are defining for WHG.   I can also work on this to provide such list of snips for WHG.

So you think WHG have some xtra early east asian ancestry hiding in or what? I doubt that serious scientists wouldn't have said it and made a big fuzz if it was the case..
Now the gravettian/ west eurasian component of ANE is plentiful in WHG.

[TanTin]

So you think WHG have some xtra early east asian ancestry hiding in or what? I doubt that serious scientists wouldn't have said it and made a big fuzz if it was the case..
Now the gravettian/ west eurasian component of ANE is plentiful in WHG.

The whole definition of WHG is still totally under question.
I am not sure what is the full definition for WHG from the serious scientists.
I know who are the best examples for WHG, however the defintition for it still has many questions.
From the genetics point of view: the best example is Loschbour man.
Tell me if you have a better one ?

[Kale]

From the genetics point of view: the best example is Loschbour man.
Tell me if you have a better one ?

Loschbour is not particularly special as far as WHG go. Has Magdelanian ancestry and some ancestry from further East in Europe.

Loschbour.DG
Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG 0.651123 0.114562 5.68358
GoyetQ_2 0.127248 0.0344990 3.68845
Serbia_Padina_HG 0.221629 0.0978333 2.26537
Tail: 0.20
right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'ZlatyKun.SG', 'Ust_Ishim.DG', 'BachoKiro_IUP', 'Kostenki14', 'Sunghir.SG', 'Muierii1', 'BachoKiro_BK1653', 'Gravettian_KremsVestonice', 'Gravettian_Italy', 'GoyetQ116_1', 'Kotias_UP.SG', 'Anatolia_Boncuklu_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG', 'Morocco_OUB002_Epipaleolithic.SG', 'Yana_UP.SG', 'MA1.SG', 'Tarim_EMBA1', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

In fact, Loschbour's closest relative by F3 is actually AC16 (an Italian Epigravettian). This is the case for a large number of WHG, because they are mixes of Italian Epigravettians and other sources.

[old europe]

From the genetics point of view: the best example is Loschbour man.
Tell me if you have a better one ?

Loschbour is not particularly special as far as WHG go. Has Magdelanian ancestry and some ancestry from further East in Europe.

Loschbour.DG
Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG 0.651123 0.114562  5.68358
GoyetQ_2                    0.127248 0.0344990 3.68845
Serbia_Padina_HG            0.221629 0.0978333 2.26537
Tail: 0.20
right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'ZlatyKun.SG', 'Ust_Ishim.DG', 'BachoKiro_IUP', 'Kostenki14', 'Sunghir.SG', 'Muierii1', 'BachoKiro_BK1653', 'Gravettian_KremsVestonice', 'Gravettian_Italy', 'GoyetQ116_1', 'Kotias_UP.SG', 'Anatolia_Boncuklu_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG', 'Morocco_OUB002_Epipaleolithic.SG', 'Yana_UP.SG', 'MA1.SG', 'Tarim_EMBA1', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

In fact, Loschbour's closest relative by F3 is actually AC16 (an Italian Epigravettian). This is the case for a large number of WHG, because they are mixes of Italian Epigravettians and other sources.

this is a taken from the Saag paper released in 2020 IIRC. I was struck by the high level of the blu component among the samples of the european hunters ( but not only)
I reached out by mail to the authors asking them what the blu color stood for and they answered that the blu color stands for a component that is maximized in the Loschbour cluster. Being a non professional in genetics the only thing I could think of is that if eastern european clusters like EHG, BALTIC HUNTER or Western Russia HG or Ukraine MESO/NEO that we know are also rich in ANE have so much Blu component is that a proto WHG population was present at the formation of Afontova Gora. Among the clusters I quoted above NONE score less than 60/65% of this component with the PIE Ukraine HG scoring above 70%.
I leave it to others to weigh in more deeply tough.

[Kaltmeister]

WHG are very interesting mixture of Paleo-Europeans with Central Asia (ANE).
The most interesting is that we have some Paleo_europeans who are not WHG...
To be WHG, they need to have some admixture with ANE people..
No need to give here exact examples.
There are some Europeans and Anatolian people near the same time.  However only those who have ANE are considered as WHG..
Why is it like this? Ask Lazaridis.

It has also been stated that EHG is a mixture of WHG and mainly ANE. So I wonder what would be the relationship between WHG, EHG and ANE.

WHG turns up about 14000 years ago, oldest finds in northern Italy. It has been assumed to have some oriental admixture, but if I remember right its origin remains an open, unsolved question. This is the first time I hear they also have an ANE admixture, and I wonder where they collected this. Do you consider it possible that WHG is the result of an ANE/EHG migration into Europe, layering a local population?

ANE is the only component that is different from other Paleo-Europeans..This is how I can separate WHG from non-WHG.  In general EHG - WHG are on the same line. EHG have more ANE than WHG.  But they form a line, clide.
On the other side: WHG have more paleo-European compared to EHG.. So it is just additional dimention where we may go deeper.. But who are the best examples of WHG ?
 The best WHG are those who have the max on paleo-European +  ANE..
Regardint ANE: we have better examples from East Asia, IUP , central Asia.. Regarding Paleo-Europe - it is more difficult, because most of the paleo-Europe samples already have a good amount of ANE..However there are many examples of ancient europeans without ANE.. Of course those who came from Anatholia don't have that much ANE. But there were also some europeans without ANE.. This is my claim.  There are no WHG found on the Balkans.. (exept some later newcommers at Iron Gates) .
It is the ANE component that will move some paleo-europeans to be WHG..  ANd I can prove this..  May be the best way to prove this is to provide a list of the snips that are defining for WHG.   I can also work on this to provide such list of snips for WHG.

As I understand your description, there is a cline: ANE - EHG - WHG, with WHG showing the most share of palaeo-European genes. WHG and EHG have been defined, if I remember right, by Lazaridis et al. ("Massive migration from the steppe..."), with WHG refering to the R1b-L754 find from Villabruna. There are now two earlier I2 examples from northern Italy. Loschbour is usually also named as a typical example.

ANE has been found in the Yana delta at the Siberian north coast and in the Mal'ta Boy, it is also the dominant component of EHG; we find very early EHG from northern Norway (Steigen, Hummervikholmen) via Karelia (Veretye) to the lower Volga (Samara). The find situation has inspired the scientists to assume a Siberian origin, but in fact we do not know where ANE/EHG come from. However, it appears that this very component has played a dominant role in European prehistory, and its origin is, for that, of special interest.

If WHG can be distinguished from older, Palaeolithic European samples by its share of ANE, I ask myself: Is the European development genetically driven by migration waves, incursions of ANE/EHG into the west? That was the background of my question.

edit: In this case, the origin of ANE/EHG and the modulation of WHG (palaeo-European + ANE + what?) would be key questions for European prehistory.

[old europe]

It has also been stated that EHG is a mixture of WHG and mainly ANE. So I wonder what would be the relationship between WHG, EHG and ANE.

WHG turns up about 14000 years ago, oldest finds in northern Italy. It has been assumed to have some oriental admixture, but if I remember right its origin remains an open, unsolved question. This is the first time I hear they also have an ANE admixture, and I wonder where they collected this. Do you consider it possible that WHG is the result of an ANE/EHG migration into Europe, layering a local population?

ANE is the only component that is different from other Paleo-Europeans..This is how I can separate WHG from non-WHG.  In general EHG - WHG are on the same line. EHG have more ANE than WHG.  But they form a line, clide.
On the other side: WHG have more paleo-European compared to EHG.. So it is just additional dimention where we may go deeper.. But who are the best examples of WHG ?
 The best WHG are those who have the max on paleo-European +  ANE..
Regardint ANE: we have better examples from East Asia, IUP , central Asia.. Regarding Paleo-Europe - it is more difficult, because most of the paleo-Europe samples already have a good amount of ANE..However there are many examples of ancient europeans without ANE.. Of course those who came from Anatholia don't have that much ANE. But there were also some europeans without ANE.. This is my claim.  There are no WHG found on the Balkans.. (exept some later newcommers at Iron Gates) .
It is the ANE component that will move some paleo-europeans to be WHG..  ANd I can prove this..  May be the best way to prove this is to provide a list of the snips that are defining for WHG.   I can also work on this to provide such list of snips for WHG.

As I understand your description, there is a cline: ANE - EHG - WHG, with WHG showing the most share of palaeo-European genes. WHG and EHG have been defined, if I remember right, by Lazaridis et al. ("Massive migration from the steppe..."), with WHG refering to the R1b-L754 find from Villabruna. There are now two earlier I2 examples from northern Italy. Loschbour is usually also named as a typical example.

ANE has been found in the Yana delta at the Siberian north coast and in the Mal'ta Boy, it is also the dominant component of EHG; we find very early EHG from northern Norway (Steigen, Hummervikholmen) via Karelia (Veretye) to the lower Volga (Samara). The find situation has inspired the scientists to assume a Siberian origin, but in fact we do not know where ANE/EHG come from. However, it appears that this very component has played a dominant role in European prehistory, and its origin is, for that, of special interest.

If WHG can be distinguished from older, Palaeolithic European samples by its share of ANE, I ask myself: Is the European development genetically driven by migration waves, incursions of ANE/EHG into the west? That was the background of my question.

no because the uniparentals do not match. We would see more ANE lineages into Europe ( even in the west) very early on. Instead we see WHG with R1b especially only after the LGM when ANE leaked fron far eastern Europe to the west.
also the fact of ANE in WHG is due to the fact that when WHG started to expand out of its refugia it encountered ANE in the east and Magdalanien to the west hence the mixing.
the similarity between ANE and WHG is due to the fact that paleo euros are at the origin of both. Obviously ANE/ANS unlike WHG have a good chunk of east eurasian admixture which is where it took the P/R1b-a lines

[Kaltmeister]

no because the uniparentals do not match. We would see more ANE lineages into Europe ( even in the west) very early on. Instead we see WHG with R1b especially only after the LGM when ANE leaked fron far eastern Europe to the west.

No to what? The uniparentals are no help here, at least at this stage of knowledge. We find EHG with I2 in Norway, with R1a and J1 in Karelia, and ANE with R or pre-R in Mal'ta and Yana.

[old europe]

As I understand your description, there is a cline: ANE - EHG - WHG, with WHG showing the most share of palaeo-European genes. WHG and EHG have been defined, if I remember right, by Lazaridis et al. ("Massive migration from the steppe..."), with WHG refering to the R1b-L754 find from Villabruna. There are now two earlier I2 examples from northern Italy. Loschbour is usually also named as a typical example.

ANE has been found in the Yana delta at the Siberian north coast and in the Mal'ta Boy, it is also the dominant component of EHG; we find very early EHG from northern Norway (Steigen, Hummervikholmen) via Karelia (Veretye) to the lower Volga (Samara). The find situation has inspired the scientists to assume a Siberian origin, but in fact we do not know where ANE/EHG come from. However, it appears that this very component has played a dominant role in European prehistory, and its origin is, for that, of special interest.

If WHG can be distinguished from older, Palaeolithic European samples by its share of ANE, I ask myself: Is the European development genetically driven by migration waves, incursions of ANE/EHG into the west? That was the background of my question.

no because the uniparentals do not match. We would see more ANE lineages into Europe ( even in the west) very early on. Instead we see WHG with R1b especially only after the LGM when ANE leaked fron far eastern Europe to the west.

No to what? The uniparentals are no help here, at least at this stage of knowledge. We find EHG with I2 in Norway, with R1a and J1 in Karelia, and ANE with R or pre-R in Mal'ta and Yana.

no there is a clear cut division. Full paleo euros like WHG have only been found with I lines while R1b WHG are always ANE admixed and not by chance you find R1b only at the intersection of WHG and ANE like the eastern baltic and the Iron Gates/ Ukraine HG samples