(03-19-2024, 09:35 PM)Hammas Wrote: Isn’t Caucasus EN something mostly CHG + Iran N with a significant amount Anatolian +Levant Farmer? Also yeah it’s possible there was some Central Asian population with high amounts of CHG and Iran N ancestry which we don’t have a sample of but unlikely, because you need to find an explanation for ANF in Eneolithic Steppe
1. CHG and Iran_N - it's practically the same thing. Most likely in the Late Paleolithic CHG lived not only in Transcaucasia, but also northern Iran and Turkmenistan, and the carriers of the Zarzian culture spread along the eastern coast of the Caspian Sea to the north, and then west to the Volga and the Don.
2. I do not see admixture of ANF in Caucasus EN.
That population was associated with basal J1 branches from the Caspian Sea, Northern Iran, Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia since the Mesolithic, we can observe in the J1 phylogenetic tree several local ancient Northern branches around 10000 ybp still living in that region, that's also the reason why only J1 has been found in the steppe related to the CHG-IRAN admixtures, components of the movements to the North.
I didn't understand exactly which of my thesis you disagree with.
I agree with number 1 and 2 and as I wrote Y-DNA J1 can be found there in ["Late Paleolithic CHG lived not only in Transcaucasia, but also northern Iran and Turkmenistan, and the carriers of the Zarzian culture spread along the eastern coast of the Caspian Sea to the north, and then west to the Volga and the Don"].
03-24-2024, 04:18 PM (This post was last modified: 03-24-2024, 04:24 PM by Kale.)
A sample which doesn't receive enough attention IMO about this and related topics is Bulgaria_Krepost_N (5723-5623 calBCE)
Has ~20% CHG and no discernible Iran_N ancestry unlike Tepecik/Buyukkaya/etc., perhaps suggesting the Caucasus as a more plausible route.
(03-20-2024, 04:46 PM)Hammas Wrote: 64.5%
GEO CHG
15%
Levant PPNB
13%
Marmara Barcin N
4.5%
Ganj Dareh N
3%
Yamnaya RUS Samara
Darkveti-Meshoko En ► Average
I know g25 isn’t the best but still they must have ANF
(03-24-2024, 04:18 PM)Kale Wrote: A sample which doesn't receive enough attention IMO about this and related topics is Bulgaria_Krepost_N (5723-5623 calBCE)
Has ~20% CHG and no discernible Iran_N ancestry unlike Tepecik/Buyukkaya/etc., perhaps suggesting the Caucasus as a more plausible route.
Strange. I pick up ample Iran N ancestry for this guy:
(03-24-2024, 06:32 PM)Hammas Wrote: Kotias as a right pop? Shouldn’t in Qpadm the earlier populations be on right? Also can you model khvalnysk?
Good catch. I misremembered and thought that CHG-heavy populations were ~equally related to Kotias and Satsurblia, so I was just using the higher coverage sample in the right. CHG-heavy populations are more Kotias-related however, rendering my previous model rather meaningless.
(03-24-2024, 04:18 PM)Kale Wrote: A sample which doesn't receive enough attention IMO about this and related topics is Bulgaria_Krepost_N (5723-5623 calBCE)
Has ~20% CHG and no discernible Iran_N ancestry unlike Tepecik/Buyukkaya/etc., perhaps suggesting the Caucasus as a more plausible route.
(03-20-2024, 04:46 PM)Hammas Wrote: 64.5%
GEO CHG
15%
Levant PPNB
13%
Marmara Barcin N
4.5%
Ganj Dareh N
3%
Yamnaya RUS Samara
Darkveti-Meshoko En ► Average
I know g25 isn’t the best but still they must have ANF
Why do you use only Samara HG in the left? Why not Ukrainian HG? According to anthropological data, the massive hypermorphic component in the Yamnaya culture was similar to one of the components in the Dnipro-Donets culture, and the anthropological type of Samara hunters had little influence.
(03-19-2024, 07:02 PM)Hammas Wrote: Wow 45% Caucasus EN ancestry? That is a lot are you sure it isn’t inflated because you aren’t using chg? I think this is confirmed they have way more than Davidski has said.
CHG is in the right pops. In that model Caucasus_EN is delivering enough CHG affinity.
CHG in a broad context is a moderately bottlenecked mixture of Zagros and Anatolian-like ancestries (with a bit of extra ANE/EHG thrown in)
CHG has the right balance of Zagros/Anatolian affinity to be the Southern source of Steppe_EN ancestry, however, Steppe_EN isn't attracted to CHG enough to have it be from CHG proper.
So from that there are 2 options. 1) Their 'CHG' comes from a source prior to the split of Satsurblia & Kotias. 2) The Zagros/Anatolian ratio matching CHG is coincidental, in which case you have something more Anatolian-leaning (Caucasus_EN or even Nalchik maybe) counterbalanced by something more Zagros leaning (Tutkaul).
Thanks Kale, very informative as always. You might remember me from AG times when we had the same topic discussed.
I see you‘re also going for CHG being a mixture of Anatolian-like (Dzudzuana)+ Iranian(Meso/Neo/or older) with a tiny bit of EHG/ANE. Allentoft had proposed the same in his paper last year.
Regarding the two options. To me, a Central Asian population mixing into Steppe seems more likely since Tutkaul was published. Its Y-haplogroup is later found in some steppe admixed population. On AG i was one of first that had mentioned there is a minor amount of ANF-like ancestry in Steppe_EN. Like mentioned by you, this would also mean that there needs to be some Anatolian heavy southern Caucasus population admixture in Steppe. Lazaridis models in the southern arc paper were probably right in detecting minor Levantine after all.
Could CHG be dzudzuana + ANE + extra basal? The iran neolithic samples mainly but also the CHG seem to somehow have higher basal eurasian than the 1/4 basal dzudzuana, even being admixed with the very non basal ancient north eurasians.
03-25-2024, 04:01 PM (This post was last modified: 03-25-2024, 04:01 PM by Norfern-Ostrobothnian.)
Ultimately CHG and Iran N are both Dzudzuana/Anatolian + ANE + Basal, and you can extend this to Anatolians being non-Gravettian part of WHG + Basal with some additional WHG later on.
03-25-2024, 05:14 PM (This post was last modified: 03-25-2024, 05:23 PM by Hammas.)
I remember CHG can be modeled Iran N + Anatolian + EHG/ANE, They are not really that different from each other, and both CHG + Iran N is present in Steppe samples I don’t know why so many people have a problem with this, kinda funny how some people really believe there was some super secret CHG that was living in Northern Caucasus or some Sarazm like population that migrated to Steppe lol
(03-24-2024, 04:18 PM)Kale Wrote: A sample which doesn't receive enough attention IMO about this and related topics is Bulgaria_Krepost_N (5723-5623 calBCE)
Has ~20% CHG and no discernible Iran_N ancestry unlike Tepecik/Buyukkaya/etc., perhaps suggesting the Caucasus as a more plausible route.
(03-20-2024, 04:46 PM)Hammas Wrote: 64.5%
GEO CHG
15%
Levant PPNB
13%
Marmara Barcin N
4.5%
Ganj Dareh N
3%
Yamnaya RUS Samara
Darkveti-Meshoko En ► Average
I know g25 isn’t the best but still they must have ANF
Why do you use only Samara HG in the left? Why not Ukrainian HG? According to anthropological data, the massive hypermorphic component in the Yamnaya culture was similar to one of the components in the Dnipro-Donets culture, and the anthropological type of Samara hunters had little influence.
I saw on anthrogenica also Progress has something like 20% Ukraine Neolithic
