Caucasus EN ancestry in Eneolithic Steppe

[Hammas]

I have seen many models of Steppe EN being modeled with Caucasus EN related admixture with as much 25 to 35%, but according to Davidski he says that Steppe EN is in reality 80% Steppe N + 20% Nalchik Related (which is half Caucasus En). I am wondering who is correct here and i want to know if the models will change when Early Steppe populations with high CHG related ancestry are released

[Kale]

Keep this in mind, from Steppe_Eneolithic, some of the nearest sites from which we have temporally appropriate samples to derive the 'Northern' half of their ancestry...
Vilnianka, Ukraine: 460 miles
Vovnigi, Ukraine: 480 miles
Ksizovo 6 - Upper Don: 600 miles
Khvalynsk II: 620 miles
Samara_HG: 750 miles

Who knows what the North coast of the Caspian looked like at the time? Maybe something in between EHG and Tutkaul?

RUS_Stavropol_Progress_Eneolithic
Caucasus_Eneolithic 0.453441 0.0153266 29.5852
Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.248771 0.0220447 11.2848
RUS_Tatarstan_Murzihinskiy_Volosovo 0.297788 0.0228306 13.0433
Tail: 0.15

RUS_Stavropol_Vonjucka_Eneolithic
RUS_Stavropol_Progress_Eneolithic 0.905714 0.0396652 22.8339
Caucasus_Eneolithic 0.0942859 0.0396652 2.37704
Tail: 0.39

right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Anatolia_Barcin_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'Iran_HajjiFiruz_CA', 'CHG.SG', 'Taforalt', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'Ukraine_Vasilevka_HG', 'RUS_Vologda_Minino_HG', 'Botai.SG', 'Tarim_EMBA1', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

[Hammas]

Wow 45% Caucasus EN ancestry? That is a lot are you sure it isn’t inflated because you aren’t using chg? I think this is confirmed they have way more than Davidski has said.

[old europe]

Keep this in mind, from Steppe_Eneolithic, some of the nearest sites from which we have temporally appropriate samples to derive the 'Northern' half of their ancestry...
Vilnianka, Ukraine: 460 miles
Vovnigi, Ukraine: 480 miles
Ksizovo 6 - Upper Don: 600 miles
Khvalynsk II: 620 miles
Samara_HG: 750 miles

Who knows what the North coast of the Caspian looked like at the time? Maybe something in between EHG and Tutkaul?

RUS_Stavropol_Progress_Eneolithic
Caucasus_Eneolithic                0.453441 0.0153266 29.5852
Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N                0.248771 0.0220447 11.2848
RUS_Tatarstan_Murzihinskiy_Volosovo 0.297788 0.0228306 13.0433
Tail: 0.15

RUS_Stavropol_Vonjucka_Eneolithic
RUS_Stavropol_Progress_Eneolithic 0.905714  0.0396652 22.8339
Caucasus_Eneolithic              0.0942859 0.0396652  2.37704
Tail: 0.39

right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Anatolia_Barcin_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'Iran_HajjiFiruz_CA', 'CHG.SG', 'Taforalt', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'Ukraine_Vasilevka_HG', 'RUS_Vologda_Minino_HG', 'Botai.SG', 'Tarim_EMBA1', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

What do you think abot this  model of  steppe eneolithic with middle Don samples as a source?

[Woz]

Davidski wants the PIE homeland to be in Ukraine. The idea that it was spread across Southern Russia and Ukraine by nomadic pastoralists originating somewhere close to the Caucasus/the circum-Caspian region is ideologically unacceptable to him.

[Kale]

Wow 45% Caucasus EN ancestry? That is a lot are you sure it isn’t inflated because you aren’t using chg? I think this is confirmed they have way more than Davidski has said.

CHG is in the right pops. In that model Caucasus_EN is delivering enough CHG affinity. 
CHG in a broad context is a moderately bottlenecked mixture of Zagros and Anatolian-like ancestries (with a bit of extra ANE/EHG thrown in)
CHG has the right balance of Zagros/Anatolian affinity to be the Southern source of Steppe_EN ancestry, however, Steppe_EN isn't attracted to CHG enough to have it be from CHG proper. 
So from that there are 2 options. 1) Their 'CHG' comes from a source prior to the split of Satsurblia & Kotias. 2) The Zagros/Anatolian ratio matching CHG is coincidental, in which case you have something more Anatolian-leaning (Caucasus_EN or even Nalchik maybe) counterbalanced by something more Zagros leaning (Tutkaul).

[Gordius]

I have seen many models of Steppe EN being modeled with Caucasus EN related admixture with as much 25 to 35%, but according to Davidski he says that Steppe EN is in reality 80% Steppe N + 20% Nalchik Related (which is half Caucasus En). I am wondering who is correct here and i want to know if the models will change when Early Steppe populations with high CHG related ancestry are released

My personal opinion is that the Caucasus EN is EHG and Ukrainian HG + CHG, with prevailing CHG. In Yamnaya and Sredniy Stog cultures, the CHG component is less.
I wrote on anthrogenica that, in my opinion, theCHG in the Eastern European steppes did not come from the Caucasus, but from Central Asia, arriving with the carriers of the Zarzi culture. In the lower Volga in the days of the Neolithic and Mesolithic, there were most likely pure CHG (for example, the seroglazovo culture). Of course, this can only be proven or disproved by genetic analysis.

[Hammas]

Isn’t Caucasus EN something mostly CHG + Iran N with a significant amount Anatolian +Levant Farmer? Also yeah it’s possible there was some Central Asian population with high amounts of CHG and Iran N ancestry which we don’t have a sample of but unlikely, because you need to find an explanation for ANF in Eneolithic Steppe

[Hammas]

So would that mean early Steppe Populations would been something EHG + Tutkaul and then they mixed with Caucasus EN to form Eneolithic Steppe? Also can you a model for Khvalnaysk and Middle Don samples as well

[Woz]

My personal opinion is that the Caucasus EN is EHG and Ukrainian HG + CHG, with prevailing CHG. In Yamnaya and Sredniy Stog cultures, the CHG component is less.
I wrote on anthrogenica that, in my opinion, theCHG in the Eastern European steppes did not come from the Caucasus, but from Central Asia, arriving with the carriers of the Zarzi culture. In the lower Volga in the days of the Neolithic and Mesolithic, there were most likely pure CHG (for example, the seroglazovo culture). Of course, this can only be proven or disproved by genetic analysis.

The problem is with the Eneolithic samples from the foothills of N Caucasus (Vonyuchka, Progress), that are already so remarkably Yamnaya-lke.

[Gordius]

Isn’t Caucasus EN something mostly CHG + Iran N with a significant amount Anatolian +Levant Farmer? Also yeah it’s possible there was some Central Asian population with high amounts of CHG and Iran N ancestry which we don’t have a sample of but unlikely, because you need to find an explanation for ANF in Eneolithic Steppe

1.  CHG and Iran_N -  it's practically the same thing. Most likely in the Late Paleolithic CHG lived not only in Transcaucasia, but also northern Iran and Turkmenistan, and the carriers of the Zarzian culture spread along the eastern coast of the Caspian Sea to the north, and then west to the Volga and the Don.

2. I do not see admixture of ANF in Caucasus EN.

[Gordius]

My personal opinion is that the Caucasus EN is EHG and Ukrainian HG + CHG, with prevailing CHG. In Yamnaya and Sredniy Stog cultures, the CHG component is less.
I wrote on anthrogenica that, in my opinion, theCHG in the Eastern European steppes did not come from the Caucasus, but from Central Asia, arriving with the carriers of the Zarzi culture. In the lower Volga in the days of the Neolithic and Mesolithic, there were most likely pure CHG (for example, the seroglazovo culture). Of course, this can only be proven or disproved by genetic analysis.

The problem is with the Eneolithic samples from the foothills of N Caucasus (Vonyuchka, Progress), that are already so remarkably Yamnaya-lke.

They are already admixed, as Yamnaya, but with more high percent of CHG.

[RCO]

Isn’t Caucasus EN something mostly CHG + Iran N with a significant amount Anatolian +Levant Farmer? Also yeah it’s possible there was some Central Asian population with high amounts of CHG and Iran N ancestry which we don’t have a sample of but unlikely, because you need to find an explanation for ANF in Eneolithic Steppe

1.  CHG and Iran_N -  it's practically the same thing. Most likely in the Late Paleolithic CHG lived not only in Transcaucasia, but also northern Iran and Turkmenistan, and the carriers of the Zarzian culture spread along the eastern coast of the Caspian Sea to the north, and then west to the Volga and the Don.

2. I do not see admixture of ANF in Caucasus EN.

That population was associated with basal J1 branches from the Caspian Sea, Northern Iran, Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia since the Mesolithic, we can observe in the J1 phylogenetic tree several local ancient Northern branches around 10000 ybp still living in that region, that's also the reason why only J1 has been found in the steppe related to the CHG-IRAN admixtures, components of the movements to the North.

[Hammas]

64.5%
GEO CHG
15%
Levant PPNB
13%
Marmara Barcin N
4.5%
Ganj Dareh N
3%
Yamnaya RUS Samara
Darkveti-Meshoko En ► Average

I know g25 isn’t the best but still they must have ANF

[Mithra]

Wow 45% Caucasus EN ancestry? That is a lot are you sure it isn’t inflated because you aren’t using chg? I think this is confirmed they have way more than Davidski has said.

CHG is in the right pops. In that model Caucasus_EN is delivering enough CHG affinity. 
CHG in a broad context is a moderately bottlenecked mixture of Zagros and Anatolian-like ancestries (with a bit of extra ANE/EHG thrown in)
CHG has the right balance of Zagros/Anatolian affinity to be the Southern source of Steppe_EN ancestry, however, Steppe_EN isn't attracted to CHG enough to have it be from CHG proper. 
So from that there are 2 options. 1) Their 'CHG' comes from a source prior to the split of Satsurblia & Kotias. 2) The Zagros/Anatolian ratio matching CHG is coincidental, in which case you have something more Anatolian-leaning (Caucasus_EN or even Nalchik maybe) counterbalanced by something more Zagros leaning (Tutkaul).

Thanks Kale, very informative as always. You might remember me from AG times when we had the same topic discussed. 

I see you‘re also going for CHG being a mixture of Anatolian-like (Dzudzuana)+ Iranian(Meso/Neo/or older) with a tiny bit of EHG/ANE. Allentoft had proposed the same in his paper last year. 

Regarding the two options. To me, a Central Asian population mixing into Steppe seems more likely since Tutkaul was published. Its Y-haplogroup is later found in some steppe admixed population. On AG i was one of first that had mentioned there is a minor amount of ANF-like ancestry in Steppe_EN. Like mentioned by you, this would also mean that there needs to be some Anatolian heavy southern Caucasus population admixture in Steppe. Lazaridis models in the southern arc paper were probably right in detecting minor Levantine after all.