Modeling Polish ancestry

[Tomenable]

Which sample is FVD004, what kind of archaeological culture does it represent?

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/ful...all%3Dtrue

And why did you select this specific sample and not others (or not an average of several samples)?

[Tomenable]

Medieval German Ostsiedlung was minimal.

Then how do you explain the difference between Early Medieval Poles and modern Poles?

[Riverman]

Medieval German Ostsiedlung was minimal.

Then how do you explain the difference between Early Medieval Poles and modern Poles?

And it might be anecdotal, but my family members have matches from Poland which overlap with Western German matches. And in some of these instances the Western German matches are very clearly the source. Similar to the uniparental cases of the same kind, where branches rootes in Western Germany appear in Poland.
This is of course only evidence for Western German admixture in Poland and says little about the proportion, but its still noticeable even with basic DNA testing and comparison.

[Tomenable]

There are also 5 western-shifted outliers among Medieval Polish samples, I posted their coordinates here:

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...3#pid11693

[Chad]

Medieval German Ostsiedlung was minimal.

Then how do you explain the difference between Early Medieval Poles and modern Poles?

I agree with you, that it's not minimal. I have a lot of ancestors from the Rhine and I have a crapload of relatives in Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltic that have no Ashkenazi ancestry or shared matches in that area. So, clearly it's Germanic ancestry that's shared. I have records showing some of them migrating into modern day Poland as well.

[Riverman]

Medieval German Ostsiedlung was minimal.

Then how do you explain the difference between Early Medieval Poles and modern Poles?

I agree with you, that it's not minimal. I have a lot of ancestors from the Rhine and I have a crapload of relatives in Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltic that have no Ashkenazi ancestry or shared matches in that area. So, clearly it's Germanic ancestry that's shared. I have records showing some of them migrating into modern day Poland as well.

Same here, a lot of them have actual paper evidence for a genealogical relationship to Germans. Some don't, but the segments don't lie. If the spread in Germany is shallow, it could have been the other way around. But if its an old segment which being shared by many Western Germans with very deep roots and solid trees, of which some go back to the 15th century, its a pretty obvious case of Germans moving to Poland. Even if their descendants have not one single German name in their recent ancestral pedigree.

[ambron]

According to Ralph and Coop's research, Germans share more ancestry (IBD) with Poles than with themselves. Thus, marginal German migrations to Poland had no significance for the genetics of Poles, especially since these migrants were most often Germanized Polabian Slavs. In fact, it was the opposite - the genetics of Germans were shaped by demographic movements from Poland to Germany.

[Capsian20]

I created G25_K12b a sample PCA0236 according K12b in Theytree

https://www.theytree.com/sample/10436dfe...b2f88.html

K12b sample
PCA0236,5.44,0,0,0,25.88,56.30,0,0,0,0,12.39,0

G25_K12b 

PCA0236,0.142074,0.152620,0.074788,0.065494,0.041731,0.026866,0.005150,0.003707,-0.008657,-0.020996,-0.006124,-0.004476,0.006341,0.006681,-0.001557,-0.001945,0.000545,-0.002326,-0.003748,0.000136,-0.002524,0.005871,0.002466,0.000408,-0.002564

Target: PCA0236
Distance: 6.4906% / 0.06490579
52.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
31.4 TUR_Barcin_N
16.2 WHG

Distance to: PCA0236
0.03250005 Polish_Kashubian:Kashubian4
0.03285524 German_East:German_East2
0.03300907 Polish_Kashubian:Kashubian2
0.03418447 Czech:NA15732
0.03524713 Polisholish15
0.03543332 Polish_Kashubian:Kashubian3
0.03581218 Polisholish40
0.03681218 German_Hamburg:GSM1031523
0.03758559 Polisholish33
0.03769139 Polisholish36
0.03788086 Sorb_Niederlausitz:Niederlausitz1
0.03794028 German:German17
0.03819979 Polisholish29
0.03831549 Swedish:GSM1884798
0.03838470 German_Erlangen:GSM1658619
0.03860579 Russian_Voronez:RussianVoron105
0.03881557 Polisholish3
0.03909267 Polisholish26
0.03930580 Polisholish16
0.03979285 Polisholish35
0.04050286 German:German62
0.04057400 Polisholish32
0.04100005 German:German75
0.04118262 Swedish:GSM1884758
0.04122804 German:German76

[Riverman]

According to Ralph and Coop's research, Germans share more ancestry (IBD) with Poles than with themselves. Thus, marginal German migrations to Poland had no significance for the genetics of Poles, especially since these migrants were most often Germanized Polabian Slavs. In fact, it was the opposite - the genetics of Germans were shaped by demographic movements from Poland to Germany.

Both is true at different times. But you got a significant movement of old Germans from the West to both Eastern Germany and what is now Poland. There are multiple instances of whole Medieval and Early modern German villages being Polonised. The clearest evidence is in the uniparentals and surnames.

Just look at the R1b alone in Poles, much too high throughout for a low level German influence:
https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articl...9-t001.jpg

And its not just about R1b, but various subclades of I, E, G etc. too. Some of which have a more recent TMRCA with Germans or were rare to not present in old Germanics.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/gen...67309/full

We can observe a decrease of old (Western) German admixture from East Germans -> Czechia -> Slovakia -> Poland -> Ukrainians. Its a pretty clear cut case. And Poles are in between Czechs-Slovaks and Ukrainians in that respect.

[Tomenable]

According to Ralph and Coop's research, Germans share more ancestry (IBD) with Poles than with themselves. Thus, marginal German migrations to Poland had no significance for the genetics of Poles, especially since these migrants were most often Germanized Polabian Slavs. In fact, it was the opposite - the genetics of Germans were shaped by demographic movements from Poland to Germany.

I have such image saved on my laptop, I don't remember if it is from Ralph and Coop or another source:



Ancestors shared with Poland in the last 540 years.

[bolek]

The clearest evidence is in the uniparentals and surnames.

 You are a totally ignorant person. There is no correlation between genes and surnames in Poland. In Western Poland under German or Austrian administration, Jews and Poles were getting German surnames. As for uniparentals Poland got lots of R1b from Corded Ware and Bell Beakers, so you would have to prove which R1b came from Germany and which were local.

[Riverman]

The clearest evidence is in the uniparentals and surnames.

 You are a totally ignorant person. There is no correlation between genes and surnames in Poland. In Western Poland under German or Austrian administration, Jews and Poles were getting German surnames. As for uniparentals Poland got lots of R1b from Corded Ware and Bell Beakers, so you would have to prove which R1b came from Germany and which were local.

You only need to compare the different Slavic populations to see it. The percentage of EBA R1b in Poles is fairly low.
Most of it came with Celto-Germanic people in different times. Just look at R-U106 in Poles.

[ambron]

Tmenable

So, as you can see, the matter concerns the East Germans, i.e. the Germanized Polabian Slavs.

[ambron]

Riverman

U106 is the best example of the autochthonous character of most of the Polish R1b. Many Polish haplotypes belong to the oldest layer U106, dating to 2000-4000 ybp:

R-Z345 - 3900 ybp
R-Y264455 - 3800 ybp
R-Y291823 - 3600 ybp
R-Y165307 - 3500 ybp
R-Y45730 - 3400 ybp
R-FT147099 - 3400 ybp
R-Y413603 - 3300 ybp
R-Y245050 - 3300 ybp
R-FGC57405 - 3100 ybp
R-ZP159 - 3100 ybp
R-BY18855 - 3100 ybp
R-Y349706 - 3100 ybp
R-Z8185 - 3000 ybp
R-FGC11784 - 2900 ybp
R-BY41723 - 2800 ybp
R-Y413876 - 2700 ybp
R-FT46604 - 2700 ybp
R-A14205 - 2700 ybp
R-FGC52137 - 2700 ybp
R-Y15791 - 2600 ybp
R-S15823 - 2500 ybp
R-S12035 - 2500 ybp
R-BY105611 - 2400 ybp
R-TY22801 - 2300 ybp
R-Y55050 - 2200 ybp
R-Y61294 - 2100 ybp
R-Y132003 - 2000 ybp

[ambron]

Bolek is right about the German surnames of Poles. The best example is the surname Miller, given by the Germans to Polish millers.