The Moriopoulos Collection of G25 Averages

[ChrisR]

AG Discord

I'm not able to login into my Discord currently. I have not used it in months. So I'm interested in an alternative publishing.
Have you considered https://figshare.com/ (or something similar) - for long time publishing it seems to be reliable. 
You get a DOI Link and you can make updates with all types of data collections (dataset, figure, poster, etc.).

[Michalis Moriakos]

I'm not able to login into my Discord currently. I have not used it in months. So I'm interested in an alternative publishing.
Have you considered https://figshare.com/ (or something similar) - for long time publishing it seems to be reliable. 
You get a DOI Link and you can make updates with all types of data collections (dataset, figure, poster, etc.).

There's probably a script that can condense this info into something more readable, but below is a spreadsheet that I made from copying the group column in PAST. Every instance of an ethnonym represents one sample. The reason I did that is because I don't want to copy the actual ID column because of all the private info it includes so this is an easy way to anonymize things. Next to it is a column indicating whether the sample is real or a sim. So if you're curious you can just count them yourselves for the averages you're interested in. Also a good way to learn if an average is a singleton or not:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...ue&sd=true

Note there are a few errors here that people have alerted me to since publishing this update, but I think any further published revisions will have to wait til the next update in 2025.

[kolompar]

Very much thanks Michal. I don't do G25 modeling a lot (so not sure if anyone else would find such a feature useful), but every time I do I wish there was an option to 'sort by date' so I can remove sources that post-date the target. Taking a quick scroll through the list of averages, I think I can tell which are modern, alot of them have dates appended to the end of the population name, but there's also a good number that don't have dates and I don't recognize. Anyways if anyone else wishes there was a way to sort by date, I'm willing to work on that for the 80-90% of populations I can figure out, someone will just have to fill in the blanks.

I did it for the anno file here.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=544
Michalis, it can also be inspiration for how to keep your coordinates Or if you do something like this, do you keep a source for each sample? Or do you have at least a version of only what's not in the official datasheets?

[Арсен]

In case it isn't obvious, the samples are sorted into 14 geographic regions: Southern Africa, Central Africa, West Africa, East Africa, Oceania, East Asia, Siberia, Central Asia, South Asia, Americas, Europe, Ciscaucasia, West Asia, and North Africa. These aren't genetic categories; I chose that arrangement because it's a pretty easy and objective way to organize samples. Ciscaucasia is technically in Europe but North Caucasians are so genetically distinctive from other Europeans it was most attractive to give them their own category. If a particular group was present in a region before ~1500, it's assigned to that region. If it came into a region after ~1500 it's assigned to the region from which it originated (e.g., Kalmyks are assigned to Central Asia instead of Europe because they migrated to Russia from Dzungaria in the 1600s). Ancient samples are usually assigned to the region where they were buried but if it's clear or probable that they or their ancestors were recent immigrants from another region then they are assigned to that area instead (e.g., Punic-clustering samples in Italy are assigned to North Africa).

I do have lots of modern era diasporan samples (e.g., African Americans, Afrikaaners, Brazilians, etc.), but most of them are excluded from the list because the focus is on pre-modern genetic variation.

Hello, in your published list of coordinates of modern samples, I came across an interesting Sample of a Nogai (or group of Nogais) with the name Nogai_Dagestan_o_(Ciscaucasian_Profile), it is interesting to me because the Nogais are one hundred percent Asian people associated with the Tatar-Mongols and the Golden Horde, genetically their profile is more reminiscent of modern ones Kazakhs. But this one is different, I would even say too much different, its genetic profile is very similar to the modern highlanders of Dagestan, but this is not the main thing, the main thing is that in terms of the composition of its components it is similar to the recently published sample from the Nalchik Eneolithic

https://postimg.cc/WF4F4FSC

I have a question: is it possible to find out more about this Nogai, or group of Nogais, where they come from, what village, and so on?
Sorry for my english

[Whyismylifesodull]

The Moriopoulos Collection for Valentine's Day 2024 is here!

All Averages (5156 Averages based on >30,000 individual samples): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lrjwkCP...ArJ72/view
No Sims (4778 Averages based on ~28,000 individual samples): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nyv7iDo...E1r7U/view
Moderns Only (sims included; some have asked for this so I have obliged): https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Lol0em...BLlM7/view

Btw I feel the Udmurt average (the original one by David) should be remade as there are some individuals who seem to have significant Slavic/Russian admixture and thus should be split and labelled as outliers.

[Jalisciense]

Thanks so much!

Could you tell me the dates of this 2?

Code:

USA_New_Mexico_Chaco_Anasazi,0.048375,-0.303643,0.112759,0.098677,-0.108174,-0.006275,-0.2487585,-0.3076025,-0.0099195,-0.0186795,-0.008444,0.0040465,0.0034195,0.016446,-0.0114005,0.0048395,0.0104305,-0.0060175,-0.003017,-0.0043145,-0.0058645,-0.005564,0.0153445,-0.0077115,-0.0017365

USA_New_Mexico_Chaco_Anasazi_(low_res),0.043253,-0.31583,0.120301,0.081073,-0.115714,-0.029005,-0.256162,-0.315448,-0.015748,-0.016583,-0.000162,0.004496,0.001487,0.020093,-0.005293,0.011138,0.002608,0.005574,0.00993,0.010255,-0.005989,0.007048,0.001972,0.005422,0.003952

And do you have the individuals (Unscaled) of these one that could you send to me? If there is no problem ofc.

Code:

Cameroonian_Bantu,-0.6280987,0.06278,0.0190824,0.01806862,0.00026466,0.0111222,-0.01552494,0.02251742,-0.03295292,0.01897802,0.00306264,-0.00383058,-0.00073432,0.00078988,-0.0041856,0.00353748,-0.00354896,0.00127956,-0.00120418,0.00226108,0.00065128,0.00028444,-0.00006402,0.00018076,-0.00137948

You can to have the unscaled with Genoplot: choose "add sample", put the scaled corrdinates and automatically you will have the unscaled coordinates

I just knew the Excel method, so thanks!

The problem here is that I use individuals, not averages.

[Jalisciense]

Thanks so much!

Could you tell me the dates of this 2?

The Anasazi samples date ~900-1200 CE.

I don't keep unscaled coords myself but I know there are ways to convert scaled to unscaled out there if you just take a look around.

Too much to do from my phone.
Is there a modern individuals only model? No sims no averages no ancients?

Nah,I just threw the moderns only list in there as an extra for people who like to do that. Truthfully anyone could make their own moderns only list from the no sims file if they wanted to-- I just don't have the time to create every permutation.

But yeah, they're all averages. It wouldn't be prudent for me to release individuals; too many private samples that I'd rather not just put out there without permission.

Yeah, right now know 2 methods to convert them in unscaled, but I use individuals, so could you share the individual coordinates of Cameroon_Bantu?

[abceff]

Target: abceff_scaled
Distance: 1.9311% / 0.01931132 | ADC: 0.5x RC
83.4 Tunisian_Tunis
6.2 Moroccan_Fassi
5.2 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni_(SSA-Mixed_Profile)
5.2 Libyan


which additional samples were added to the tunisian_tunis average?

Distance to: abceff_scaled
0.02158436 Tunisian_Tunis

[mikepase]

Hello Moriakos. I would like to ask which exact group does Greek_Erzurum represent? Could it be the Turkish-speaking Greeks of Tsalka, Georgia? I'm asking because I'm one of them and it interests me directly. Thanks in advance for your work.

[Michalis Moriakos]

Michalis, it can also be inspiration for how to keep your coordinates Or if you do something like this, do you keep a source for each sample? Or do you have at least a version of only what's not in the official datasheets?

I don't keep metadata for anything other than private samples sent to me. Usually for ancient samples (and even most moderns), a sample ID will lead you back to the source but sometimes you won't be able to find where it came from even with that info (because the ID is too generic, cryptic, or unlisted in a search engine). The spreadsheet is just too big at this point for me to try to keep a sample bibliography going. I'd love to be able to do it but I'd have no life whatsoever if I did. I ain't gettin' paid for this and I just don't have the time or energy to do much more than curate the coords themselves.

Hello, in your published list of coordinates of modern samples, I came across an interesting Sample of a Nogai (or group of Nogais) with the name Nogai_Dagestan_o_(Ciscaucasian_Profile), it is interesting to me because the Nogais are one hundred percent Asian people associated with the Tatar-Mongols and the Golden Horde, genetically their profile is more reminiscent of modern ones Kazakhs. But this one is different, I would even say too much different, its genetic profile is very similar to the modern highlanders of Dagestan, but this is not the main thing, the main thing is that in terms of the composition of its components it is similar to the recently published sample from the Nalchik Eneolithic
https://postimg.cc/WF4F4FSC
I have a question: is it possible to find out more about this Nogai, or group of Nogais, where they come from, what village, and so on?
Sorry for my english

Those Dagestani Nogai outliers have the following IDs: GRC10047440, GRC10047455, GRC11053243. They're from the Hammer Lab and I have no further info about them:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/biosample/?...RC10047440

They're probably just Turkicized Dagestani people who identify as Nogai. Either that or it's a mistake on the part of the scientists who sampled them (which does happen).

Btw I feel the Udmurt average (the original one by David) should be remade as there are some individuals who seem to have significant Slavic/Russian admixture and thus should be split and labelled as outliers.

Fair point. There are a handful that pull away from the main cluster towards Eastern Europe but I don't know enough about them to say for sure who is recently admixed with Russians and what might just be variation in the pop.

Yeah, right now know 2 methods to convert them in unscaled, but I use individuals, so could you share the individual coordinates of Cameroon_Bantu?

Sorry, I've been flooded for way too many requests for individual coords lately and I gotta cut it off for the sake of my own free time.

which additional samples were added to the tunisian_tunis average?
Distance to: abceff_scaled
0.02158436 Tunisian_Tunis

Two private samples.

Hello Moriakos. I would like to ask which exact group does Greek_Erzurum represent? Could it be the Turkish-speaking Greeks of Tsalka, Georgia? I'm asking because I'm one of them and it interests me directly. Thanks in advance for your work.

They're sims taken from Gedmatch that were collected by guy of Eastern Anatolian Greek roots (Laert Karaashev). He's a co-administrator of a Pontic project on Ftdna:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/pon...background

One of the samples is him. These folks all live in Russia now but from what I can gather from what they've posted publicly, their ancestral origins are in Erzurum. I can't tell you if they were Turkish-speaking or not at any point, though I know a lot of people from Erzurum ended up in Georgia, too, and it looks like his family did too (search his last name and you'll see he marks his origin as from Pasinler in Erzurum through to Tsinskaro in Georgia:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rus...e=yresults

PM me for more details; I'd love to chat with you because you're part of a community of Hellenes that my own Greek Project would love to know more about.

[Jalisciense]

@Michalis Moriakos

It's okay bro, I understand; when you can, it'd be cool.

[Арсен]

Michalis, it can also be inspiration for how to keep your coordinates Or if you do something like this, do you keep a source for each sample? Or do you have at least a version of only what's not in the official datasheets?

I don't keep metadata for anything other than private samples sent to me. Usually for ancient samples (and even most moderns), a sample ID will lead you back to the source but sometimes you won't be able to find where it came from even with that info (because the ID is too generic, cryptic, or unlisted in a search engine). The spreadsheet is just too big at this point for me to try to keep a sample bibliography going. I'd love to be able to do it but I'd have no life whatsoever if I did. I ain't gettin' paid for this and I just don't have the time or energy to do much more than curate the coords themselves.

Hello, in your published list of coordinates of modern samples, I came across an interesting Sample of a Nogai (or group of Nogais) with the name Nogai_Dagestan_o_(Ciscaucasian_Profile), it is interesting to me because the Nogais are one hundred percent Asian people associated with the Tatar-Mongols and the Golden Horde, genetically their profile is more reminiscent of modern ones Kazakhs. But this one is different, I would even say too much different, its genetic profile is very similar to the modern highlanders of Dagestan, but this is not the main thing, the main thing is that in terms of the composition of its components it is similar to the recently published sample from the Nalchik Eneolithic
https://postimg.cc/WF4F4FSC
I have a question: is it possible to find out more about this Nogai, or group of Nogais, where they come from, what village, and so on?
Sorry for my english

Those Dagestani Nogai outliers have the following IDs: GRC10047440, GRC10047455, GRC11053243. They're from the Hammer Lab and I have no further info about them:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/biosample/?...RC10047440

They're probably just Turkicized Dagestani people who identify as Nogai. Either that or it's a mistake on the part of the scientists who sampled them (which does happen).

Btw I feel the Udmurt average (the original one by David) should be remade as there are some individuals who seem to have significant Slavic/Russian admixture and thus should be split and labelled as outliers.

Fair point. There are a handful that pull away from the main cluster towards Eastern Europe but I don't know enough about them to say for sure who is recently admixed with Russians and what might just be variation in the pop.

Yeah, right now know 2 methods to convert them in unscaled, but I use individuals, so could you share the individual coordinates of Cameroon_Bantu?

Sorry, I've been flooded for way too many requests for individual coords lately and I gotta cut it off for the sake of my own free time.

which additional samples were added to the tunisian_tunis average?
Distance to: abceff_scaled
0.02158436 Tunisian_Tunis

Two private samples.

Hello Moriakos. I would like to ask which exact group does Greek_Erzurum represent? Could it be the Turkish-speaking Greeks of Tsalka, Georgia? I'm asking because I'm one of them and it interests me directly. Thanks in advance for your work.

They're sims taken from Gedmatch that were collected by guy of Eastern Anatolian Greek roots (Laert Karaashev). He's a co-administrator of a Pontic project on Ftdna:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/pon...background

One of the samples is him. These folks all live in Russia now but from what I can gather from what they've posted publicly, their ancestral origins are in Erzurum. I can't tell you if they were Turkish-speaking or not at any point, though I know a lot of people from Erzurum ended up in Georgia, too, and it looks like his family did too (search his last name and you'll see he marks his origin as from Pasinler in Erzurum through to Tsinskaro in Georgia:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rus...e=yresults

PM me for more details; I'd love to chat with you because you're part of a community of Hellenes that my own Greek Project would love to know more about.

Thank you very much for your answer

[Cascio]

The Moriopoulos Collection for Valentine's Day 2024 is here!

All Averages (5156 Averages based on >30,000 individual samples): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lrjwkCP...ArJ72/view
No Sims (4778 Averages based on ~28,000 individual samples): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nyv7iDo...E1r7U/view
Moderns Only (sims included; some have asked for this so I have obliged): https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Lol0em...BLlM7/view

Where does your Ligurian sample come from?
I only ask because it's my number one match.

[Michalis Moriakos]

The Moriopoulos Collection for Valentine's Day 2024 is here!

All Averages (5156 Averages based on >30,000 individual samples): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lrjwkCP...ArJ72/view
No Sims (4778 Averages based on ~28,000 individual samples): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nyv7iDo...E1r7U/view
Moderns Only (sims included; some have asked for this so I have obliged): https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Lol0em...BLlM7/view

Where does your Ligurian sample come from?
I only ask because it's my number one match.

It's an average of an academic singleton and a K13-based average of various Ligurians:

Italian_Liguria_(Ligurian):ALP099,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599
Italian_Liguria_(Ligurian):Liguria_Average_K13_sim,0.1246,0.1494,0.0277,-0.0158,0.0297,-0.006,-0.0037,0.0023,0.0083,0.0259,0.0018,0.0104,-0.0187,-0.0061,-0.0045,-0.0058,-0.0033,0.0009,0.0052,-0.0084,-0.0001,0.0027,0.0014,0.0015,-0.0031

We really need more Ligurians in the G25. We have some people from Carloforte that are almost certainly entirely of Ligurian ancestry and also Ligurians from Val Borbera in Piedmont but I'd prefer a lot more directly from Liguria itself.

[Moeca]

The Moriopoulos Collection for Valentine's Day 2024 is here!

All Averages (5156 Averages based on >30,000 individual samples): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lrjwkCP...ArJ72/view
No Sims (4778 Averages based on ~28,000 individual samples): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nyv7iDo...E1r7U/view
Moderns Only (sims included; some have asked for this so I have obliged): https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Lol0em...BLlM7/view

Where does your Ligurian sample come from?
I only ask because it's my number one match.

It's an average of an academic singleton and a K13-based average of various Ligurians:

Italian_Liguria_(Ligurian):ALP099,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599
Italian_Liguria_(Ligurian):Liguria_Average_K13_sim,0.1246,0.1494,0.0277,-0.0158,0.0297,-0.006,-0.0037,0.0023,0.0083,0.0259,0.0018,0.0104,-0.0187,-0.0061,-0.0045,-0.0058,-0.0033,0.0009,0.0052,-0.0084,-0.0001,0.0027,0.0014,0.0015,-0.0031

We really need more Ligurians in the G25. We have some people from Carloforte that are almost certainly entirely of Ligurian ancestry and also Ligurians from Val Borbera in Piedmont but I'd prefer a lot more directly from Liguria itself.

you can also try to get samples as far as modern Monaco..............from Liguria to monaco was more Italian than french until a change about 150 years ago