Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[leonardo]

It is not possible to decide the source of Slavic clades of M458, Y3210 and CTS1211 before we get Iron Age and early Medieval samples from Belarus and northern Ukraine.
No need for irony.

A couple of thoughts: 1) then the wait may be a long time; 2) this thought needs to be understood by more than a few here; 3) irony is beget by sarcasm, insults and threats for moderators to silence. In the meantime, everybody's thoughts are theories or speculation regarding the Slavic ethnogenesis. However, prior to this ethnogenesis or formation, we can examine samples that we actually have to wonder how their journey into the Slavic ethnogenesis occurred. These clades may well have taken different journeys.

Regardless of how long we need to wait, it is our only option.
From today distribution of 3 main Slavic clades it is obvious that they never have been uniformly distributed among Proto Slavs.
The CTS1211 behaved like a glue which united M458 and Y3120 under one Slavic cultural package.
And we can guess that M458 was positioned west of the Proto Slavic core and Y32120 was southwest of it.
The coalescence of these clades happened obviously very late, at the turn of the eras.

Which gets us to the linguistic side. I am a linguistic novice at best, but I think it is safe to assume that CTS1211 was positioned as a Baltic marker as well. Linguistically, something altered Balt into Slavic and that catalyst could well have come from either one or both of the remaining primary patrilineal lines that eventually formed the Slavs.

[ph2ter]

...

Could you add Czulice sample?

POL_Czulice_395-418_CE:czu001,0.121791,0.133034,0.075801,0.070737,0.042469,0.017012,0.00188,0.011307,0.006749,-0.002369,-0.005196,0.004946,-0.013379,-0.013762,0.021444,0.025722,0.004433,-0.003294,-0.002891,0.008754,0.013102,0.000618,-0.002095,0.019882,-0.001197

Extreme Germanic:

[Radko]

Czulice samples have been added to TheYtree.

czu001 - I-CTS11651, H1q
czu002 - N-F1206, U5a1b1

https://www.theytree.com/portal/index/sa...%20Cranium

czul002 Hun in some calculators...

E11
Yakut: 31.18%
North Chinese Oroqen: 26.28%
South Chinese Dai: 12.47%
European: 12.19%
India: 9.66%
American: 5.46%
Southwest Chinese Yi: 2.76%

K47
Uralic: 24.37%
Indo-Chinese: 20.26%
Amuro-Manchurian: 18.56%
Siberian: 11.66%
East-Asian: 9.79%
NE-Asian: 4.91%
NW-Indian: 4.45%
Andean: 3.75%
South-Chinese: 1.70%
East-Euro: 0.54%

MichalK25
East Asian: 27.13%
Uralic: 16.95%
Northeast Asian: 16.63%
Altaic: 11.80%
Siberian: 8.14%
Taiwanese Aboriginal: 6.53%
North Amerindian: 3.87%
Northeast European: 3.82%
North Indian: 2.16%
Eskimoic: 1.99%
Kamchatkan: 0.99%

czul002 falls closely to present-day Asian populations on a PCA and in the context of ancient comparative material is closest to Nomads from Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan and to the Elite Hun burials from Hungary (HUN001) and Kazakhstan (KRY001).

[ambron]

Radko

So the Huns on the Vistula are not a fantasy of the author of Widsith, but a historical fact. This is probably why Priscus heard Slavic words among the Huns.

[ambron]

ph2ter

We know the rate of Y chromosome mutations and the contemporary geographic distribution of these mutations. We know that the full complement of these mutations is transmitted as one package from father to son. Therefore, we can indicate with very high probability where each of our forefathers was at a given time.

And no archaeological sample will change that. And this is what people most often don't understand. So waiting for magical samples from Belarus is only prolonging the illusion of a Slavic homeland in Kiev culture.

[ph2ter]

ph2ter

We know the rate of Y chromosome mutations and the contemporary geographic distribution of these mutations. We know that the full complement of these mutations is transmitted as one package from father to son. Therefore, we can indicate with very high probability where each of our forefathers was at a given time.

And no archaeological sample will change that. And this is what people most often don't understand. So waiting for magical samples from Belarus is only prolonging the illusion of a Slavic homeland in Kiev culture.

Actually, you are the one who doesn't understand.
No, you cannot tell from the current distribution where each of our ancestors was at a particular time. The archaeological samples are the most important to know nearly anything about this.

[ambron]

ph2ter

I understand very well! The Y chromosome precisely records the entire history of migration, so archaeological samples are irrelevant here.

Archaeological samples are indeed of fundamental importance, but only for autosomal chromosomes, whose mutations are inherited in two packages from two parents. And that is why archaeological samples show us that the Baltic genotype was geographically much more widely distributed in old times and was not limited, as it is today, to the area of the south-eastern Baltic Sea.

[ambron]

Leonadrdo

Minor correction... Nothing changed the Baltic languages into Slavic ones. The Baltic and Slavic languages arose in parallel as a result of the breakup of the Balto-Slavic branch.

[Radko]

So the Huns on the Vistula are not a fantasy of the author of Widsith, but a historical fact.

Yes, we have a few dozens of genetic Germanics from every corner of Iron Age Poland (and more coming) and 1 Hun. And 0 genetic Slavs.

[Bukva_]

@Radko Any info about Y DNA in Histogenes samples?

[ambron]

Radko

I've told you before that if a genome isn't in G25, it doesn't mean it isn't there at all. In general, there are a lot of Slavic genomes, also in terms of Y-DNA, from Iron Age Poland. Even in the G25 there is one. There are also many genomes with a large share of Slavic admixture.

The unfavorable ratio of non-Slavic to Slavic genomes results from the cremation rite cultivated by the Slavs in the Iron Age. Skeletons represent only a few percent of Iron Age burials, and a few percent cannot be representative of 100% of the population.

[Radko]

And here's the map with some new archaeological sites analysed by the Warsaw team (to be published).

I could share some preliminary results from this project. Warsaw team has 0 Iron Age R-M458 samples. Warsaw team has 0 Iron Age samples similar to Avar period/Early Medieval Slavic samples in terms of auDNA.

[Radko]

@Radko Any info about Y DNA in Histogenes samples?

Not yet. I've asked Pribislav to check these samples.

[ambron]

Radko

The Warsaw team has at least one Iron Age sample that looks like medieval Poles and at least one that is 100 percent Slavic in terms of Y-DNA.

[Riverman]

Radko

The Warsaw team has at least one Iron Age sample that looks like medieval Poles and at least one that is 100 percent Slavic in terms of Y-DNA.

@ambron: Outliers don't alter the bigger picture, more important is how the general population looked like. There might have been some gene flow and migration to different regions from the Proto-Slavic core, which doesn't change where the Proto-Slavic core was.
Unless its a very special find, like an irregular burial within a cremating community and stuff like that, then single samples might really count as well.