Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[Radko]

Out of 17 officially contaminated samples, 4 (!) belong to R-YP6048 (TMRCA 1500 ybp according to YFull) under R-L1029:
PCA0332 (BTW, labelled incorrectly as Ostrow Lednicki 322 by FTDNA)
PCA0333
PCA0403
PCA0496

[leonardo]

Out of 17 officially contaminated samples, 4 (!) belong to R-YP6048 (TMRCA 1500 ybp according to YFull) under R-L1029:
PCA0332 (BTW, labelled incorrectly as Ostrow Lednicki 322 by FTDNA)
PCA0333
PCA0403
PCA0496

Provyn's and Krahn's website do not use these samples, at least they aren't listed on YFull, and Y2912 is virtually located in the same place on their website. How do you explain that?

[Bukva_]

Out of 17 officially contaminated samples, 4 (!) belong to R-YP6048 (TMRCA 1500 ybp according to YFull) under R-L1029:
PCA0332 (BTW, labelled incorrectly as Ostrow Lednicki 322 by FTDNA)
PCA0333
PCA0403
PCA0496

Provyn's and Krahn's website do not use these samples, at least they aren't listed on YFull, and Y2912 is virtually located in the same place on their website. How do you explain that?

Because most of the samples are modern and ancient ones are Polish Middle Ages. When you click Roman period they use 0 ancient samples for R-L1029.

[leonardo]

Out of 17 officially contaminated samples, 4 (!) belong to R-YP6048 (TMRCA 1500 ybp according to YFull) under R-L1029:
PCA0332 (BTW, labelled incorrectly as Ostrow Lednicki 322 by FTDNA)
PCA0333
PCA0403
PCA0496

Provyn's and Krahn's website do not use these samples, at least they aren't listed on YFull, and Y2912 is virtually located in the same place on their website. How do you explain that?

Because most of the samples are modern and ancient ones are Polish Middle Ages. When you click Roman period they use 0 ancient samples for R-L1029.

Which is no different than the autosomal distance and similarity maps posters like Radko uses to make their argument. I guess you call that a stand off. EDIT: I'm not sure if they are all modern samples. On my YFull page there are 3 ancient/medieval samples listed. WEhy wouldn't they use that data as well. Do you have something to corroborate your assertion?

[Bukva_]

Provyn's and Krahn's website do not use these samples, at least they aren't listed on YFull, and Y2912 is virtually located in the same place on their website. How do you explain that?

Because most of the samples are modern and ancient ones are Polish Middle Ages. When you click Roman period they use 0 ancient samples for R-L1029.

Which is no different than the autosomal similarity maps posters like Radko uses to make their argument. I guess you call that a stand off.

Then my question to you is, how do you explain modern autosomal profile of Belarusians and Ukranians, and why modeling almost every Slavic person has a best fit with those Baltic like Early Slavs? Why don't we find that autosomal profile in pre-medieval Poland?

[Bukva_]

Provyn's and Krahn's website do not use these samples, at least they aren't listed on YFull, and Y2912 is virtually located in the same place on their website. How do you explain that?

Because most of the samples are modern and ancient ones are Polish Middle Ages. When you click Roman period they use 0 ancient samples for R-L1029.

Which is no different than the autosomal distance and similarity maps posters like Radko uses to make their argument. I guess you call that a stand off. EDIT: I'm not sure if they are all modern samples. On my YFull page there are 3 ancient/medieval samples listed. WEhy wouldn't they use that data as well. Do you have something to corroborate your assertion?

Classic whataboutism.
And I didn't say they don't use any Medieval samples.

[leonardo]

Because most of the samples are modern and ancient ones are Polish Middle Ages. When you click Roman period they use 0 ancient samples for R-L1029.

Which is no different than the autosomal distance and similarity maps posters like Radko uses to make their argument. I guess you call that a stand off. EDIT: I'm not sure if they are all modern samples. On my YFull page there are 3 ancient/medieval samples listed. WEhy wouldn't they use that data as well. Do you have something to corroborate your assertion?

Classic whataboutism.
And I didn't say they don't use any Medieval samples.

One of the samples listed is ancient.

[leonardo]

Because most of the samples are modern and ancient ones are Polish Middle Ages. When you click Roman period they use 0 ancient samples for R-L1029.

Which is no different than the autosomal similarity maps posters like Radko uses to make their argument. I guess you call that a stand off.

Then my question to you is, how do you explain modern autosomal profile of Belarusians and Ukranians, and why modeling almost every Slavic person has a best fit with those Baltic like Early Slavs? Why don't we find that autosomal profile in pre-medieval Poland?

If Provyn and Krahn's site is using modern samples, how do you explain Y2912 being situated where it is?

[Radko]

If Provyn and Krahn's site is using modern samples, how do you explain Y2912 being situated where it is?

Do you believe that for example I-Y18331 under I-Y3120 was in Greece and southern Bulgaria around 1BC because FTDNA's Globetrekker estimates such location? As Andar wrote, these distribution and haplogroup migration maps are mainly based on modern-day distribution and are not taking into account population movements (including Slavic migrations), bottlenecks, etc.

[Radko]

Then my question to you is, how do you explain modern autosomal profile of Belarusians and Ukranians, and why modeling almost every Slavic person has a best fit with those Baltic like Early Slavs? Why don't we find that autosomal profile in pre-medieval Poland?

Now let's wait for leonardo's answer.

[leonardo]

Then my question to you is, how do you explain modern autosomal profile of Belarusians and Ukranians, and why modeling almost every Slavic person has a best fit with those Baltic like Early Slavs? Why don't we find that autosomal profile in pre-medieval Poland?

Now let's wait for leonardo's answer.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions. And I don't need to join other posters to hold my hand either.

[leonardo]

If Provyn and Krahn's site is using modern samples, how do you explain Y2912 being situated where it is?

Do you believe that for example I-Y18331 under I-Y3120 was in Greece and southern Bulgaria around 1BC because FTDNA's Globetrekker estimates such location? As Andar wrote, these distribution and haplogroup migration maps are mainly based on modern-day distribution and are not taking into account population movements (including Slavic migrations), bottlenecks, etc.

So we're back to some posters here know more than FTDNA. You still haven't answered why Provyn's and Krahn's site has your terminal clade in the same place as FTDNA. I think this is the 3rd time I've asked. And, I'll post again, is not your autosomal distance and similarity data based upon modern day distribution? So why is yours different and better? Does yours take into account population movements , bottlenecks, etc

[Vinitharya]

I think it is weak to declare a sample "contaminated" if you do not like the conclusions that would be made if it were to be included. L1029 in Wielbark makes perfect sense from a modern distribution viewpoint; the only viewpoint which finds fault with it is certain ethnonationalist stances.

[leonardo]

Then my question to you is, how do you explain modern autosomal profile of Belarusians and Ukranians, and why modeling almost every Slavic person has a best fit with those Baltic like Early Slavs? Why don't we find that autosomal profile in pre-medieval Poland?

Now let's wait for leonardo's answer.

If Provyn and Krahn's site is using modern samples, how do you explain Y2912 being situated where it is?

Do you believe that for example I-Y18331 under I-Y3120 was in Greece and southern Bulgaria around 1BC because FTDNA's Globetrekker estimates such location? As Andar wrote, these distribution and haplogroup migration maps are mainly based on modern-day distribution and are not taking into account population movements (including Slavic migrations), bottlenecks, etc.

So we're back to some posters here know more than FTDNA. You still haven't answered why Provyn's and Krahn's site has your terminal clade in the same place as FTDNA. I think this is the 3rd time I've asked. And, I'll post again, is not your autosomal distance and similarity data based upon modern day distribution? So why is yours different and better? Does yours take into account population movements , bottlenecks, etc

I'll answer to the best of my ability and honestly, which counts for something. I think you have already given the answer. Autosomal distances don't take into account population movements, bottlenecks, etc. Take for example, a Polish husband and wife who move to the USA in the late 19th century. They have a son, who is fully of Polish descent, but then he marries an woman whose parents were born in Italy. Now their son is 50/50. That son then marries a woman who is of African descent. Their son is now 25% Polish ancestry, 25% german and 50% African. That son then marries a woman of African descent and so their son is now about 12.5% Polish ancestry. And on and on. Within about 7 or 8 generations that man would have a markedly different autosomal admixture but would still have the y-dna of his Polish ancestor. That's why I believe, for the consideration of the Slavic ethnogenesis, which was formed by patrilineally dominated clans, y-dna can be more useful than autosomal. Do you believe that the autosomal distances and admixtures you are getting on samples from thousands of years ago using MODERN populations is accurate? Does it take into account migrations and back migrations, admixtures from other ethnicities who also migrated and mixed with the native population, border changes, etc.?

[Radko]

That's why I believe, for the consideration of the Slavic ethnogenesis, which was formed by patrilineally dominated clans, y-dna can be more useful than autosomal.

And I think that we need pre-Medieval samples that will show a combination of "Balto-Slavic" autosomal profile, "Slavic" Y-DNA and IBD segments shared with later Medieval Slavs. We have none such samples from pre-Medieval Poland.