Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[alexfritz]

how did you obtain 24 L1029 for n 105
alone Stolarek Table S3 is already n 113 and only 9 L1029 (11 if PCA0359 and PCA0216 are counted as CTS11962); if this incl samples from Table S1 it cant be weighted as n 105 ie less than n 113 so what dataset is this exactly; and next to 2x Cieple who are the other 13 MA L1029 samples

[Radko]

^^ A lot more samples from Stolarek et al. have been added to FTDNA, e.g. https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-L1029/tree


In my dataset I have only Medieval samples under R-M458, R-Z280 and I-CTS10228.

R-M458, R-Z280 and I-CTS10228 constitute about 70-75% of all Y-DNA in Medieval Poland.

[VladMC]

Archaeological conference
From the Urals to the Balkans: contacts and conflicts in Roman times and the Middle Ages

SERBIA
Novi Sad – Belgrade
(Museum of Vojvodina – National Museum of Serbia)
October 23 – 27, 2023

Vyazov L.A.
[email protected]),
Flegontova O.V.
[email protected]
Ringbauer H.
[email protected]
Reich D.
[email protected]
Flegontov P.N.
[email protected])

Geography and chronology of Slavic settlement in Central and Eastern Europe according to archaeogenetics

Methods widely used in modern archaeogenetics are based on allele frequency (principal component analysis,
ADMIXTURE and qpAdm) are successfully used for reconstruction
historical processes in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages, but they
application in later eras faces problems because genetic variation there is described by continuous gradients rather than by graphs composed of isolated and occasionally intermingling populations. For example, it is very difficult to differentiate historically known Slavic, Germanic and Celtic groups based on archaeogenetic data using these methods. To solve this problem, we applied a method based on
autosomal haplotypes (IBD-sharing, Ringbauer et al. 2023, bioRxiv),
which makes it possible to identify distant family ties between pairs of individuals. These connections can be represented as a network graph and visualized using various planar layout algorithms.
The graph we constructed includes more than 2000 individuals from the territory of Northern Eurasia in the 1st millennium BC. – I millennium AD, showed the presence of several large clusters (highlighted by the Leiden algorithm), corresponding to relatively isolated populations. One of them includes individuals from Roman times and the era of the Great Migration from territories where the Slavic presence is confirmed by historical and archaeological sources. The archaeological context of these burials is different. Most come from burial grounds of the Avar period, the most recent examples
(XI–XII centuries) - from the Balkan Peninsula, from Hungary and Rus'. The earliest samples (end of the 2nd – beginning of the 3rd century) were identified in the burials of Viminacium, the Skorenovac burial ground in Vojvodina, Tanais, as well as in the Middle Volga (Karlinskoe-1). We assume that this cluster reflects the Slavic settlement in Europe
Taking into account the results of other analyzes based on allele frequencies (PCA, ADMIXTURE), we can propose a hypothesis of the origin of the population of the “Slavic” cluster: it was formed as a result of the mixing of a group related to the population of the Baltic of the 1st millennium BC with the East Germans and Sarmatians . We believe that the starting point for the settlement of the described population in Central and Eastern Europe could have been the migration of the Sarmatian population at the end of the 2nd century.


Oblomsky A.M.
[email protected])
On the nature of contacts between the Zarubintsy and Sarmatian populations in the forest-steppe zone of Eastern Europe. Classical Zarubintsy period (end of the 3rd century BC - second half of the 1st century AD).
A. Finds of Sarmatian arrows and a molded polished mug at the site of Babina Gora. Burning of fortifications at the settlements of Babina Gora, Monastyrek and Pilipenkova Gora, but then they were rebuilt.
B. Kurgan burials with Zarubinets finds are divided into two groups: inlet cremations, Sarmatian inhumations with Zarubinets vessels and brooches. These contact monuments are common in the steppe Dnieper region and partly on the Dnieper Left Bank. Sarmatian monuments are not known in the depths of the forest-steppe.
The situation is typical for periodic raids with the capture of prisoners.
Late Zarubintsy period (mid-1st – 2nd century).
The Sarmatians are actively penetrating the forest-steppe in the Upper Dniester region, the Middle Dnieper region, the Southern Bug basin, and the Upper Don region. Three contact models can be distinguished.
1. Almost complete absence of connections with the population of the Zubretsky culture (Upper Dniester region).
2. Upper Don region, neighboring contacts: the presence of common types of molded tableware while preserving the archaeological specifics of the Sarmatian, Late Scythian and Late Zarubintsy cultural groups.
3. Stable connections. In the south of the Middle Dnieper region and in the Southern Bug basin, connections between the Sarmatian, Late Scythian and Late Zarubintsy populations were quite close.
Sarmatian and Late Scythian groups penetrate deeply into the Middle Dnieper region (up to the Stugna River).

[Radko]

^^ Hopefully, the map below was updated with more samples.

Red dots - pre-Medieval samples sharing IBD segments with later Slavs
Yellow dots - Medieval samples sharing IBD segments with the Slavs

Larger dots = more shared IBD segments

[leonardo]

^^ A lot more samples from Stolarek et al. have been added to FTDNA, e.g. https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-L1029/tree


In my dataset I have only Medieval samples under R-M458, R-Z280 and I-CTS10228.

R-M458, R-Z280 and I-CTS10228 constitute about 70-75% of all Y-DNA in Medieval Poland.

Besides the pre-medieval samples it's interesting to note that the medieval samples are either Piast Dynasty or some kind of Viking sample.

[Radko]

^^ These samples are from times when the Piast Dynasty ruled Poland or Viking Age.

These samples do not belong to the members of the Piast Dynasty or Scandinavian Vikings

[leonardo]

^^ These samples are from times when the Piast Dynasty ruled Poland or Viking Age.

These samples do not belong to the members of the Piast Dynasty or Scandinavian Vikings

Those samples aren't  listed as belonging to the Piast Dynasty or Viking Sweden, Viking Denmark, etc. on your account? They are on mine. Maybe FTDNA got it wrong?

[alexfritz]

^^ A lot more samples from Stolarek et al. have been added to FTDNA, e.g. https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-L1029/tree


In my dataset I have only Medieval samples under R-M458, R-Z280 and I-CTS10228.

R-M458, R-Z280 and I-CTS10228 constitute about 70-75% of all Y-DNA in Medieval Poland.

ok, so it incls Table S1 samples
but im only counting 19 samples from MA poland (+ 2x Cieple thats 21)
any idea who the other three or five are ? pos VK212 Cedynia (CTS11962)

seems that FTDNA confirms VK541 as Izyaslav Ingvarevich
which makes a great deal of sense given the burial context

EDIT: im seeing that santok 399 and lad 213 are not incl at FTDNA but are confirmed L1029 in Table S3

[Radko]

^^ Another 3x R-L1029 samples are from the upcoming (unpublished) Borowka study.

[Radko]

Those samples aren't listed as belonging to the Piast Dynasty or Viking Sweden, Viking Denmark, etc. on your account?

FTDNA got it wrong. They are not belonging to the Piast Dynasty, Danish Vikings, etc.

[leonardo]

^^ These samples are from times when the Piast Dynasty ruled Poland or Viking Age.

These samples do not belong to the members of the Piast Dynasty or Scandinavian Vikings

I get what you are saying, now that you edited your post. I'm not saying they are from the Piast clan. I am saying they are men from the Piast Dynasty era, all serving the Piasts. Coincidental or not? The point I am trying to make is that, before there were Vikings or Slavs, there were men who were L1029, all sharing the same common ancestor. Maybe that is what we should consider. For me, there is something to be said that all these L1029 men ended up in the - relatively speaking - same area, i.e., not far from the Baltic Sea. That association speaks to me as being relevant to the origins and location of L1029.

[leonardo]

Those samples aren't listed as belonging to the Piast Dynasty or Viking Sweden, Viking Denmark, etc. on your account?

FTDNA got it wrong. They are not belonging to the Piast Dynasty, Danish Vikings, etc.

I find that hard to believe, that FTDNA got it wrong. Those samples listed as Piast State weren't found in gords and fortifications, defending the Piasts? And those other samples from Sweden, Denmark, etc., - we shouldn't consider them as Vikings?

[Radko]

Those samples listed as Piast State weren't found in gords and fortifications, defending the Piasts? And those other samples from Sweden, Denmark, etc., - we shouldn't consider them as Vikings?

Piast State samples - correct (many of them are just ordinary inhabitants of the Polish lands)

About "Vikings", for example VK139 was buried without any grave goods suggesting that he was a Viking. Also, his autosomal results are purely Slavic-like.

[leonardo]

Those samples listed as Piast State weren't found in gords and fortifications, defending the Piasts? And those other samples from Sweden, Denmark, etc., - we shouldn't consider them as Vikings?

Piast State samples - correct (many of them are just ordinary inhabitants of the Polish lands)

About "Vikings", for example VK139 was buried without any grave goods suggesting that he was a Viking. Also, his autosomal results are purely Slavic-like.

Ok. Perhaps I over simplified things by including all samples. The point I want to make is that we have a good number of L1029 from medieval Sweden, Denmark, etc. Of course, we have many found in medieval Poland. So, beyond ethnic or tribal designation, these men were found in the Baltic region. We know we have samples of L1029 from the Wielbark and Pruszcz Gdanski Cultures. Maybe these were not so much outliers but a common area for L1029 samples, who then over the next few centuries, found themselves as part of differing tribes and ethnicities, and eventually kingdoms and nations. Just a theory.

[Radko]

The point I want to make is that we have a good number of L1029 from medieval Sweden, Denmark, etc.

Yes. And this corresponds perfectly to visible archaeological/historical presence of the Slavs/Wends in Sweden, Denmark, etc. since the 9th century AD.