Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[BowFX]

As for the Wielbark population, McColl's team is very enigmatic about it:

"The earliest individuals from Wielbark, Poland (~1900 BP) are primarily of Eastern Scandinavian ancestry, supporting a population migration from a region and population distinct from that of the West and North Germanic populations, a scenario potentially consistent with Gothic oral history."

This applies only to a few of the Wielbark samples included in the study - the earliest ones (approx. 100 AD) and those with the most Scandinavian genetics. Unfortunately, the authors nowhere present an analysis of the admixtures of the Wielbark Goths, although they do present the Iberian and Crimean Goths.

Fortunately, the authors place the Wielbark Goths on the IBD segment division maps. And here, on the first map in the first row from attachment 14, we can see that about 30 Wielbark individuals draw their ancestors from the Baltic BA source. The Wielbark population draws approximately the same amount of ancestry from the Baltic BA source as the Late Antique population of Öland, which is known (attachment 17) to have a relatively high share of the Baltic BA component. The Wielbark population from McColl's work therefore has a clear Eastern European admixture, the same as in Stolarek's work.

So Goths had Balto-Slavic-like admix almost right from the beginning, even in Scandinavia?

[BowFX]

The idea of Eastern Scandinavian ancestry is interesting. We know linguistically,  East Germanic differed noticeably from West Germanic.

Don't the authors mention even modern Norwegians having more Eastern Scandinavian than non-Eastern?

[sirdan]

Pay attention where is located Western Scandinavian in this paper. It is still originating in South Sweden.

[ambron]

BowFX

Probably not, because in Stolarek's study, over twenty Wielbark Goths had no Eastern European admixture.

[BowFX]

BowFX

Probably not, because in Stolarek's study, over twenty Wielbark Goths had no Eastern European admixture.

I see, thanks. What is that about the Baltic BA then?

[ambron]

BowFX

In what sense?

[ulf]

Does anyone still have the 1240k genotype files for Genetic history of East-Central Europe in the first millennium CE? I think the link was on the old forum that has since been closed down.

[Radko]

RKF106
Y-DNA: R-PF6155 (https://www.theytree.com/tree/R-PF6155)
mtDNA: T

Would be interesting to know his archaeological context (grave goods if any?) and C14 dating.

Distance to: Avars:RKF106.A0101.TF1
0.03034502 Lithuanian_VA
0.03189350 Lithuanian_RA
0.03216037 Lithuanian_PA
0.03335903 Russian_Pskov
0.03583943 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03628393 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03738263 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03813257 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03824371 Belarusian
0.03859708 Russian_Kursk
0.03937149 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03943727 Latvian
0.03954024 Russian_Voronez
0.03982614 Russian_Smolensk
0.03983789 Russian_Belgorod
0.03990227 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.04076475 Russian_Tver
0.04079908 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04100944 Russian_Kaluga
0.04132203 Russian_Ryazan
0.04168754 Estonian
0.04212584 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04216701 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04229041 Polish
0.04293685 Russian_Orel

Distance to: Avars:RKO013.A0101.TF1
0.02181432 Lithuanian_RA
0.02334208 Lithuanian_VA
0.02340184 Lithuanian_SZ
0.02365237 Lithuanian_PA
0.02422103 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02448410 Russian_Pskov
0.02552969 Belarusian
0.02633787 Lithuanian_PZ
0.02716859 Latvian
0.03003749 Russian_Smolensk
0.03181367 Estonian
0.03216844 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03297397 Russian_Kursk
0.03323326 Russian_Kaluga
0.03412956 Russian_Tver
0.03441621 Russian_Orel
0.03463012 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03463478 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03534517 Russian_Voronez
0.03618212 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03637885 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03670965 Russian_Belgorod
0.03804074 Russian_Ryazan
0.03900312 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.04062545 Polish

Distance to: Avars:RKF188.A0101.TF1
0.02690675 Lithuanian_PZ
0.02787947 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03122941 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03183177 Latvian
0.03360207 Lithuanian_RA
0.03567427 Lithuanian_VA
0.03603349 Belarusian
0.03662021 Lithuanian_PA
0.03721155 Estonian
0.03755299 Russian_Pskov
0.03950309 Russian_Smolensk
0.04139565 Russian_Kaluga
0.04530989 Russian_Voronez
0.04640721 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04645935 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04654998 Russian_Kursk
0.04730622 Russian_Orel
0.04826607 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04861718 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04870851 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.04946621 Polish_Kashubian
0.05035317 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05038420 Russian_Tver
0.05117034 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05155349 Russian_Belgorod

[BowFX]

BowFX

In what sense?

I meant the authors mention East Scandinavians having Baltic BA-admix. Don't Balto-Slavs have that too?

[ph2ter]

Several new unmixed Slavs and Germans from Avaria:

[Gordius]

Several new unmixed Slavs and Germans from Avaria:

What do we see? Only three outliers, most likely from the Baltic lands. And a whole bunch of samples with the autosomal profile Carpathian Ukrainians/Croats/Serbs - obviously, this is precisely the Slavic core.

[ambron]

BowFX

Baltic BA is a Baltic countries Bronze Age population that is often used as a proxy for Eastern European/Balto-Slavic admixture. The so-called by McColl, the "Eastern Scandinavians" have no admixture of Baltic BA, only Latvia HG, i.e. Neolithic Baltic.

[ambron]

In Polish historical tradition, the Vistulas and Lendians people were part of the Avar Horde, and many Avar warriors were recruited from these tribes. Therefore, the genetic similarity of Avar outliers to some medieval Poles is not surprising.

Maybe Radko will show us the closest distances between Avar outliers and medieval Poles...

[Radko]

It doesn't make any sense to compare these 7th (to be confirmed) century unmixed Slavs to much later Medieval Polish samples. I will compare Iron Age Wielbark samples from Poland (before the expansion of the Slavs from a region in present-day northern Ukraine and Belarus) to these 3 unmixed Slavic samples.

[BowFX]

It doesn't make any sense to compare these 7th (to be confirmed) century unmixed Slavs to much later Medieval Polish samples. I will compare Iron Age Wielbark samples from Poland (before the expansion of the Slavs from a region in present-day northern Ukraine and Belarus) to these 3 unmixed Slavic samples.

So Poles are shifted towards the East Germanic Wielbark culture when compared to these unmixed Slavic Avars (the green dots)?