Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[Gordius]

Uncremated burials we can expect from inter-marriages, in case of dead on the battlefields after the battles, young children, dead in the cases of massive epidemics ...

Of course, in the case of the cremation tradition, these exceptions are the only way to investigate the gene pool of the population that practiced cremation. But at the same time, in the case of inhumations in the above-mentioned cases, there is often a lack of cultural attribution, as there is no standard burial rite. For example, women from a culture that practiced cremation married men from a culture that practiced inhumation, but may be fully buried according to the rites of their husband's culture. For example, in some settlements of the Chernyakhiv culture in the Middle Dnieper region, the anthropological series of women were distinguished by the large size of the skull and face, which sharply distinguished them from the male series and brought them closer to some Eastern Slavic tribes of later times. With a certain degree of probability, it can be assumed that these women are from the area of Kyiv culture, but this is only an assumption, since the clear influence of Kyiv culture on their burial is not traced.
In the end, a vivid case - in the same report of Vyazov, the "Balto-Slavic" sample from Tanais (lower Don) had a completely Sarmatian cultural attribution.

[Radko]

Interestingly, we have a lot of Iron Age genetic Balts from Baltic states despite the common practice of cremation burial. Non-Baltic-like genomes are rare there.

For example 5 out of 6 samples from atypical for Balts flat burials and barrows (some of them with stone circles) from Lithuania published in "Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic (...)" are genetically Baltic-like.

These cemeteries (like Marvelė burial site) have both inhumations and cremations, but it seems that both burial rites were used by the same (or nearly identical) Baltic population.

[Radko]

In the end, a vivid case - in the same report of Vyazov, the "Balto-Slavic" sample from Tanais (lower Don) had a completely Sarmatian cultural attribution.

But he also wrote "it is notable that four pottery types were found in the Hunnic-period Tanais, and that a small fraction of pottery was typical for the Slavic-associated Kiev culture (Oblomsky 2010)."

So there are signs of contacts between Hunnic-period Tanais and Slavic-associated Kiev culture.

[Parastais]

Interestingly, we have a lot of Iron Age genetic Balts from Baltic states despite the common practice of cremation burial. Non-Baltic-like genomes are rare there.

For example 5 out of 6 samples from atypical for Balts flat burials and barrows (some of them with stone circles) from Lithuania published in "Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic (...)" are genetically Baltic-like.

These cemeteries (like Marvelė burial site) have both inhumations and cremations, but it seems that both burial rites were used by the same (or nearly identical) Baltic population.

Any chance you or anyone here got their (new LT samples) G25 coordinates?

[ambron]

Apart from minor incidents, was in force on Polish soil for approximately 2.5 thousand years cremation rite. The skeletal rite, as an alternative ritual to cremation, appeared and disappeared with the emergence and disappearance of the Wielbark culture, lasting about 400 years. The Wielbark culture was created by Goths who came from Scandinavia. Therefore, initially mainly Scandinavian genetics appear in Wielbark skeletons. As time passes and the Wielbark culture expands, more and more Slavic genetics appear in Wielbark skeletons (Slavic outliers, Slavic admixture, Slavic Y-DNA). This shows the genetic nature of the local demographic background, which cultivated the cremation rite.

It's simple!

[ambron]

Radko

The Goths did not reach Lithuania, so there was no Scandinavian genetics in the Lithuanian skeletons.

[Radko]

Vyazov wrote that after thoroughly checking Polish Iron Age aDNA samples from Stolarek et al. paper - "neither the dataset nor the ADMIXTURE is relevant to the Slavic dispersal issue".

He believes that "the first wave of the Slavic dispersal is strongly associated with the post-Zarubintsy groups".

appeared and disappeared with the emergence and disappearance of the Wielbark culture, lasting about 400 years

From what I've seen Przeworsk culture samples are also Scandinavian and/or West European-like genetically and do not resemble Avar period/Early Medieval Slavs.

I suspect that Oksywie culture population (replaced or transformed into Wielbark culture later) will also be not Slavic-like genetically.

[ambron]

Radko

In the Przeworsk culture, skeletal burials appear only occasionally, so they are not representative of the 99% of the population who practice cremation.

After all, Vyazov, as you well know, did not examine the IBD segments of Stolarek's samples. Now he has the opportunity to explore it.

However, the same function as the study of autosomal haplotypes is performed by the study of Y chromosome haplotypes. So far, they link the early Slavs with the Western Slavs.

[Orentil]

Radko

In the Przeworsk culture, skeletal burials appear only occasionally, so they are not representative of the 99% of the population who practice cremation.

Like for Slavs it might therefore be helpful also for the Przeworsk culture to look outside it's core regions, e.g. in Pannonia. If we look e.g. on the samples from Fonyod or Hacs after 425 AD with a "north-west European" shift, this might actually be a Celto-Germanic shift that one could expect based on archaeologic material culture for the Przeworsk culture. Will be exciting to see if these samples cluster with the upcoming Przeworsk samples from Poland.

[alexfritz]

Radko

In the Przeworsk culture, skeletal burials appear only occasionally, so they are not representative of the 99% of the population who practice cremation.

Like for Slavs it might therefore be helpful also for the Przeworsk culture to look outside it's core regions, e.g. in Pannonia. If we look e.g. on the samples from Fonyod or Hacs after 425 AD with a "north-west European" shift, this might actually be a Celto-Germanic shift that one could expect based on archaeologic material culture for the Przeworsk culture. Will be exciting to see if these samples cluster with the upcoming Przeworsk samples from Poland.

it is def a good approach to look at sites in closer proximity but i would think that those sites are too far removed to have still gotten into contact with the prev cultural zones eg for shifts especially

for one the area was part of the Roman province so that the samples overlapping SE (and recurring in all three sites) are most prob the locals of the area they encountered once crossing over the Roman border; maybe even the locals encountered there before the Romans once established a border; eitherway a pop not sufficing a NW shift and with elements like ACD (Fonyod and Balatonszemes) and even a text in Gothic (Hacs) this is most prob a group in the context of the Hun/MP movements, and pos from areas further away; too bad that McColl did not incl these sites in his IBD analysis specially in regards to the Wielbark/eScand cluster a snow we would be smarter; in all scanning the broader areas DA119 (?Vandal) from Poprad is prob/maybe what to expect for the overall Przeworsk profile aswell

for Salvic cores there could be the Brushed-Pottery culture aswell as Milograd>Zarubintsy>Kyiv zones further south to the Black-sea; the former has an interesting passage on the German wikipedia page:

Show Content

SpoilerIm 2. Viertel des 5. Jahrhunderts werden zahlreiche Siedlungen durch Brand zerstört. Besondere Formen von Speerspitzen weisen auf Hunnen. Aus der Zeit danach gibt es keine datierbaren Zeugnisse der Strichkeramikkultur mehr.

eng:In the second quarter of the 5th century, numerous settlements were destroyed by fire. Special shapes of spearheads point to the Huns. There are no datable evidences of the Line Pottery culture from the period after that.

which would also place it within the wirrwarr of the emerging MP
its close proximity and Baltic association could explain the early Slavic profile aswell as the single occurrences of M458 and L1029 further west in IA Hungary or Wielbark earlier on, with said profiles

[okshtunas]

Radko

In the Przeworsk culture, skeletal burials appear only occasionally, so they are not representative of the 99% of the population who practice cremation.

Like for Slavs it might therefore be helpful also for the Przeworsk culture to look outside it's core regions, e.g. in Pannonia. If we look e.g. on the samples from Fonyod or Hacs after 425 AD with a "north-west European" shift, this might actually be a Celto-Germanic shift that one could expect based on archaeologic material culture for the Przeworsk culture. Will be exciting to see if these samples cluster with the upcoming Przeworsk samples from Poland.

it is def a good approach to look at sites in closer proximity but i would think that those sites are too far removed to have still gotten into contact with the prev cultural zones eg for shifts especially

for one the area was part of the Roman province so that the samples overlapping SE (and recurring in all three sites) are most prob the locals of the area they encountered once crossing over the Roman border; maybe even the locals encountered there before the Romans once established a border; eitherway a pop not sufficing a NW shift and with elements like ACD (Fonyod and Balatonszemes) and even a text in Gothic (Hacs) this is most prob a group in the context of the Hun/MP movements, and pos from areas further away; too bad that McColl did not incl these sites in his IBD analysis specially in regards to the Wielbark/eScand cluster a snow we would be smarter; in all scanning the broader areas DA119 (?Vandal) from Poprad is prob/maybe what to expect for the overall Przeworsk profile aswell

for Salvic cores there could be the Brushed-Pottery culture aswell as Milograd>Zarubintsy>Kyiv zones further south to the Black-sea; the former has an interesting passage on the German wikipedia page:

Show Content

SpoilerIm 2. Viertel des 5. Jahrhunderts werden zahlreiche Siedlungen durch Brand zerstört. Besondere Formen von Speerspitzen weisen auf Hunnen. Aus der Zeit danach gibt es keine datierbaren Zeugnisse der Strichkeramikkultur mehr.

eng:In the second quarter of the 5th century, numerous settlements were destroyed by fire. Special shapes of spearheads point to the Huns. There are no datable evidences of the Line Pottery culture from the period after that.

which would also place it within the wirrwarr of the emerging MP
its close proximity and Baltic association could explain the early Slavic profile aswell as the single occurrences of M458 and L1029 further west in IA Hungary or Wielbark earlier on, with said profiles

I doubt Brushed Pottery Culture is Proto-Slavic or the source of M458/L1029. I find it hard to believe it will be located any further northern than Milograd.

Balts do not carry any Baltic-Specific M458/L1029 lines, and a good many of them are certainly the result of EMA Slavic migrations, and later Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Milograd was likely not much different autosomally either. For M458/L1029 (not being specific to Slavs with this comment), I see it as likely situated between Milograd/SE Bell Grave Cultures - Pretty much Volhynia and no further South than Podolia (regardless of which cultures the land shifted between). Though I am more inclined to place it within the Chernoles Culture (together with I-Y3120) also referred to as the "Scythian Ploughmen". 

The collapse of Chernoles (3rd Century BCE) coincides with the rise of Zarubintsy (3rd Century BCE), which pretty much coincides with the bottlenecks of L1029/Y3120, and their founder effects and rapid growth, that later spread into the other cultures.

Far more likely a convergence from Milograd/Brushed Pottery Cultures (likely Z280>CTS1211 & Z280>Z92 respectively) with neighboring Chernoles / Zarubintsy is what led to this.

This could explain the singletons pushing through toward Wielbark/La Tene/Hallstatt, and potentially with Chernyakhov (under subjugation of the Goths). Only under these scenarios does a transition of some (or most) subclades incubating within Kyiv Culture make sense. However, claims M458 was just in Kyiv Culture (including all it's singletons and lack of diversity) makes no sense.

M458/L1029 seems very much to be non-elite/insignificant until LA/EMA. So, it's unlikely to be the progenitor/champion of any one of these cultures before the time we see massive growth in the lineage.

[La Tene]

Any chance you or anyone here got their (new LT samples) G25 coordinates?

Yeah that would be great if we can get them. Do we have to wait for an official publication or is it just a huge workload and the adna/tech experts dont have time to do it? Can they be requested from someone?

[alexfritz]

Like for Slavs it might therefore be helpful also for the Przeworsk culture to look outside it's core regions, e.g. in Pannonia. If we look e.g. on the samples from Fonyod or Hacs after 425 AD with a "north-west European" shift, this might actually be a Celto-Germanic shift that one could expect based on archaeologic material culture for the Przeworsk culture. Will be exciting to see if these samples cluster with the upcoming Przeworsk samples from Poland.

it is def a good approach to look at sites in closer proximity but i would think that those sites are too far removed to have still gotten into contact with the prev cultural zones eg for shifts especially

for one the area was part of the Roman province so that the samples overlapping SE (and recurring in all three sites) are most prob the locals of the area they encountered once crossing over the Roman border; maybe even the locals encountered there before the Romans once established a border; eitherway a pop not sufficing a NW shift and with elements like ACD (Fonyod and Balatonszemes) and even a text in Gothic (Hacs) this is most prob a group in the context of the Hun/MP movements, and pos from areas further away; too bad that McColl did not incl these sites in his IBD analysis specially in regards to the Wielbark/eScand cluster a snow we would be smarter; in all scanning the broader areas DA119 (?Vandal) from Poprad is prob/maybe what to expect for the overall Przeworsk profile aswell

for Salvic cores there could be the Brushed-Pottery culture aswell as Milograd>Zarubintsy>Kyiv zones further south to the Black-sea; the former has an interesting passage on the German wikipedia page:

Show Content

SpoilerIm 2. Viertel des 5. Jahrhunderts werden zahlreiche Siedlungen durch Brand zerstört. Besondere Formen von Speerspitzen weisen auf Hunnen. Aus der Zeit danach gibt es keine datierbaren Zeugnisse der Strichkeramikkultur mehr.

eng:In the second quarter of the 5th century, numerous settlements were destroyed by fire. Special shapes of spearheads point to the Huns. There are no datable evidences of the Line Pottery culture from the period after that.

which would also place it within the wirrwarr of the emerging MP
its close proximity and Baltic association could explain the early Slavic profile aswell as the single occurrences of M458 and L1029 further west in IA Hungary or Wielbark earlier on, with said profiles

I doubt Brushed Pottery Culture is Proto-Slavic or the source of M458/L1029. I find it hard to believe it will be located any further northern than Milograd.

Balts do not carry any Baltic-Specific M458/L1029 lines, and a good many of them are certainly the result of EMA Slavic migrations, and later Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Milograd was likely not much different autosomally either. For M458/L1029 (not being specific to Slavs with this comment), I see it as likely situated between Milograd/SE Bell Grave Cultures - Pretty much Volhynia and no further South than Podolia (regardless of which cultures the land shifted between). Though I am more inclined to place it within the Chernoles Culture (together with I-Y3120) also referred to as the "Scythian Ploughmen". 

The collapse of Chernoles (3rd Century BCE) coincides with the rise of Zarubintsy (3rd Century BCE), which pretty much coincides with the bottlenecks of L1029/Y3120, and their founder effects and rapid growth, that later spread into the other cultures.

Far more likely a convergence from Milograd/Brushed Pottery Cultures (likely Z280>CTS1211 & Z280>Z92 respectively) with neighboring Chernoles / Zarubintsy is what led to this.

This could explain the singletons pushing through toward Wielbark/La Tene/Hallstatt, and potentially with Chernyakhov (under subjugation of the Goths). Only under these scenarios does a transition of some (or most) subclades incubating within Kyiv Culture make sense. However, claims M458 was just in Kyiv Culture (including all it's singletons and lack of diversity) makes no sense.

M458/L1029 seems very much to be non-elite/insignificant until LA/EMA. So, it's unlikely to be the progenitor/champion of any one of these cultures before the time we see massive growth in the lineage.

that sounds pretty good actually and fully agree with the last part
in terms of Baltic profile that ofc does not mean confined to modern-day speakers or the political borders, i think we have seen that type of profile already at Trzciniec (TCC) both with R- CTS1211 and M458 (both < Z282) ie a Trzciniec profile overlapping with modern Balts would thus be a clearer terming; and while CTS1211 was found already earlier (eg Somogyvár–Vinkovci culture) with the TCC we are dealing sofar with the earliest M458 (poz554 site 7) 1492-1297 calBCE, described as "a nuclear family ... most likely represent a father with his two children" and now obv there must have been a few more such nuclear families otherwise we would not be seeing any further M458s (incl today)

yet we are seeing it again and indeed the most prominant (+clades) throughout the MA period specially now in a Slavic context though the two CTS11962s on Gotland (VK 438 452) still have that old Trzciniec vibe and in these days of hyper output there is still the Y-Data of alot of new sites to look out for eg Mödling or those of Sachsen-Anhalt

[Nógarðar]

[...] and while CTS1211 was found already earlier (eg Somogyvár–Vinkovci culture) 

Somogyvár-Vinkovci culture:
> Somogyvár-Vinkovci culture: > ERS16293360 [S9] R-M417* 2560-2290 calBCE
Somogyvár-Vinkovci culture:

> ERS16293360 [S9] R-M417 2560-2290 calBCE