Archaeological and Modern Indo-European and Iranian Y-DNA J1 - Database

[RCO]

Continuation of :  

Archaeological Indo-European and Iranian Y-DNA J1 - Database
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/1...database/1

Oldie but Goldie - Gilak - Iran - "Testimony Peoples" from the Caspian Sea genoplot.com/discussions/topic/25511/oldie-but-goldie-gilak-iran-testimony-peoples-from-the-caspian-sea/1

Missing Links in Paternal Haplogroup J1-M267. Filling in the J1-M267 Phylogenetic Gap. Two Mesolithic Clades of Human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267: J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599.
https://zenodo.org/record/5528265

Ancient J1 Map
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid...000004&z=3

Ancient Iranian - ISBA 10 - 2023 - ABSTRACT HGP-003 Genomic analyses of Seleucid and Parthian period population in North Iran Speaker: Motahareh Amjadi
https://genarchivist.freeforums.net/thre...ranian-dna

[rmstevens2]

Afanasievo interests me a lot because a couple of ancient Afanasievo samples, Shatar Chuluu 1 and Nileke 5-3, are R1b-P310. I was reading about Afanasievo a couple of days ago, and I noticed that the Afanasievo male at Shatar Chuluu in Grave 2 (Shatar Chuluu 2) is J1-Y136779. Cool!

I read that the Afanasievo samples are virtually identical to Yamnaya in terms of autosomal DNA.

Here's a map showing the burial locations of those two R1b-P310 Afanasievo guys and the J1-Y136779 guy in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections, Shatar Chuluu 1, Nileke 5-3, and Shatar Chuluu 2. They are numbers 9 (Shatar Chuluu) and 6 (Nileke 5-3) on the map. The Nileke County site (also known as Nilka County) is referred to as G218 III. Shatar Chuluu is in Mongolia. Nileke County is in Xinjiang, China.

[rmstevens2]

Sorry to blather on, but here's my idea as to why there are a few different Y-DNA haplogroups among the early Indo-Europeans and not just one, yet their autosomal DNA is pretty uniform and consistent. I chalk that up to female exogamy. The different tribes on the steppe were dominated by different Y-DNA haplogroups - here one, there another - but they sent their daughters out to other tribes as wives of the men of that tribe. They accepted women from tribes other than their own as wives. Thus there was a constant churning and mixing that kept the autosomal DNA uniform while the dominant Y-DNA lines of the particular tribes were preserved. 

To me that makes the most sense: a handful (not many) different Y-DNA haplogroups, but pretty uniform, consistent autosomal DNA across the Indo-European steppe pastoralist tribes.

[RCO]

Yes, they had a diversity of haplogroups. They used the Afanasievo J1 IBD's in the article: "ancIBD - Screening for identity by descent segments in human ancient DNA".

We found that several nomadic Steppe groups associated with the Yamnaya culture that dates to around 3000 BCE share relatively large amounts of IBD with each other (Fig. 5). Notably, this IBD cluster includes also individuals associated with the Afanasievo culture near the Central Asian Altai mountains several thousands of kilometers east. This signal of IBD sharing confirms the previous archaeological hypothesis that Afanasievo and Yamnaya are closely linked despite the vast geographic distance from Eastern Europe to Central Asia

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10028887/

[Sephesakueu]

If I understood correctly you think J1 men brought Indo-European languages to the steppe?
If so where are these pre bronze age Indo european languages of iran?
This is one of the original languages of Iranian neolithic farmers:"Elamite is generally considered a language isolate unrelated to any other languages." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam
BMAC was almost surely not indo-european speaking, the same goes for all of the places overwhelmingly inhabited by iranian-neolithic farmers during or before the chalcolithic, their language was likely something similar to Hurro-Urartian, Elamite or even dravidian languages.
Also the southern element present in steppe has little to do with iran and central asian neolithic farmers, it was more akin to CHG.

J1 surely was a vector of the very minor male mediated southern caucasian (CHG) genetics into the steppe since mesolithic times (due to the 3 EHGs under J1).

[rmstevens2]

Sephesakueu wrote:  If I understood correctly you think J1 men brought Indo-European languages to the steppe?

I don't want to get into an argument here, but I don't buy the "south of the Caucasus" view of the PIE Urheimat. I don't doubt that J1-M267 was one of a number of PIE Y-DNA haplogroups, including R1b-M269, R1a-M417, I-L699, and Q1 (I forget the specific subclades), but I think IE originated on the Eurasian steppe.

[RCO]

My position is the same for several years. Let's wait for new results.

- J1 was born in the Eastern Wing of the Southern Arc strongly associated with the CHG-IRAN component and expanded to all directions creating new admixed populations in the steppe.

- All recent major papers like Lazaridis, Southern Arc, Heggarty, Language trees with sampled ancestors support a hybrid model for the origin of Indo-European languages, more David Reich and Johannes Krause books are confirming the Indo-European Southern position. More papers to come with the Arrival.

- Diversity and complexity of the Indo-European languages were born in the South. Anatolian Languages were the first to split and local languages are still being discovered like the new Anatolian, Indo-European language, Kalasma in 2023. Indo-Iranian big diversity exists only in the South, side by side with Greek in the Aegean and Armenian in the Caucasus, in a big continuation of neighbour languages. The extension and diversity of languages in the Western Iranian complex in Northern Iran has a major genetic continuity since the Mesolithic in general terms, we can also observe the local and native Y-DNA clades, no local replacement, the prevail and continuity of Ancient Iranian Y-DNA lineages and no sign of any major external Bronze Age or Iron Age recent expansion, what means "no big daddy club" of immediate/primary descendant lineages in the ancient settled Iranian core areas in opposition to the newly invaded peripherical expansion areas like Europe, where local clades were Indo-Europeanized from the forest-steppe to the West.

- My J1-FGC6035 lineage was Iranian in the Iron Age via local matches and was in NW Iran or somewhere adjacent since the Mesolithic as a lineage split in J1-L620. We are one of the few Iranian lineages to reach the Westernmost End of Eurasia in Atlantic NW Iberia (Iranic Alans as one hypothesis or other) and ramificated in Northern Portugal with the "Portuguese Reconquista" since before the year 1000 CE as "Cristãos Velhos". We are part of the Conquest and Formation of Brazilian Portuguese Colonial Elite and we speak Medieval Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese as a continuity and I think we have been speaking forms of Proto-Indo-European since the beginning in some Ancient Iranian population.

[AboveHeights]

My position is the same for several years. Let's wait for new results.

- J1 was born in the Eastern Wing of the Southern Arc strongly associated with the CHG-IRAN component and expanded to all directions creating new admixed populations in the steppe.

- All recent major papers like Lazaridis, Southern Arc, Heggarty, Language trees with sampled ancestors support a hybrid model for the origin of Indo-European languages, more David Reich and Johannes Krause books are confirming the Indo-European Southern position. More papers to come with the Arrival.

- Diversity and complexity of the Indo-European languages were born in the South. Anatolian Languages were the first to split and local languages are still being discovered like the new Anatolian, Indo-European language, Kalasma in 2023. Indo-Iranian big diversity exists only in the South, side by side with Greek in the Aegean and Armenian in the Caucasus, in a big continuation of neighbour languages. The extension and diversity of languages in the Western Iranian complex in Northern Iran has a major genetic continuity since the Mesolithic in general terms, we can also observe the local and native Y-DNA clades, no local replacement, the prevail and continuity of Ancient Iranian Y-DNA lineages and no sign of any major external Bronze Age or Iron Age recent expansion, what means "no big daddy club" of immediate/primary descendant lineages in the ancient settled Iranian core areas in opposition to the newly invaded peripherical expansion areas like Europe, where local clades were Indo-Europeanized from the forest-steppe to the West.

- My J1-FGC6035 lineage was Iranian in the Iron Age via local matches and was in NW Iran or somewhere adjacent since the Mesolithic as a lineage split in J1-L620. We are one of the few Iranian lineages to reach the Westernmost End of Eurasia in Atlantic NW Iberia (Iranic Alans as one hypothesis or other)  and ramificated in Northern Portugal with the "Portuguese Reconquista" since before the year 1000 CE  as "Cristãos Velhos". We are part of the Conquest and Formation of Brazilian Portuguese Colonial Elite and we speak Medieval Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese as a continuity and I think we have been speaking forms of Proto-Indo-European since the beginning in some Ancient Iranian population.

I also lean towards the Southern Arc homeland, but how do we explain the fact that most Y lineages found in the early steppe cultures belong to EHG? There are only one or two haplogroup J's found.

[RCO]

I7929 REV3.19 Revova, Kurgan 3, Burial 1913 4905±20 (PSUAMS-4763) 3711-3639 calBCE M U4d3 J1 (J-FT265222)

 The J-Y6313-deived J-FT265222 lineage of Y haplogroup J1 identified in a genetically Usatove individual from the Revova kurgan (Burial 19) is present in modern populations of 30 Europe, as well as Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Another Usatove male from Mayaky carried the R1a lineage, has a widespread Eurasian distribution, but its initial diversification is thought to have started in Iran1

Suppl.

I7929 REV-3.19, Revova Kurgan 3, Burial 19, male, 3711-3639 calBCE (4905±20 BP, PSUAMS-4763) 80 Burial 19 was the main burial in the kurgan. The burial was found at a distance of 2.1 m to the east-northeast of the central benchmark, at a depth of 1.05 m. Scattered and mostly fragmentary human bones lay throughout the fill area in the eastern part of the pit. The layerby-layer analysis of the remains suggests that the state and placement of the bone remains were consistent with the rite of secondary burial, perhaps with an imitation of the sitting position of the buried, possibly wrapped in cloth. The upper level of the bone “package” was occupied by the remains of the skull (parietal bones) and cervical vertebrae, the middle level consisted of the ribs, and the lumbar vertebrae and the sacrum lay in the lower tier. The bones of the left leg were completely missing, including the foot. The tibia of the right leg, also without a foot, was in a vertical position, while the femur lay horizontally with its head turned towards the main body of bones. The vertical position was occupied by the radius of the right hand. Other bones of the arms, including the hands, were absent. The zygomatic bones were located at the bottom of the pit. A patella rested somewhat away from the main assembly. Some fragments of the skull were painted with ochre. At the bottom of the burial chamber, near the bones, grains of scarlet ochre were noted. The dust from burnt timber planks extended throughout the chamber floor.

A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...7.589600v1
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...y-material

[RCO]

The J1 in Khvalynsk-2, burial 26

The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...y-material

I6735 I6735 30 (Khvalynsk-2, burial 26) petrous whole-genome analysis First genome-wide ancient DNA data from this individual Khokhlov, Alexander A. Direct: IntCal20 (there is a freshwater reservoir effect of ~300-700 years at this site estimated based on direct dates on herbivore bones in two graves for which there is a direct date on human bone but this is not applied) 6981 71 5206-4935 calBCE (6100±25 BP, PSUAMS-4163) 17-22 yrs; female? Kmed Khvalynsk-2 (Saratov Oblast, Khvalynsky District, Khvalynsk town) Russia 52,35336944 48,07836667 1240k 1 1 4,278174128 846495 M n/a (no relatives detected) 0 0 215 U4a J-CTS1026 J1 [0.991,0.998] 0,095 0,418 [0.003,0.007] [0.005,0.007] ds.half S6735.E1.L1 S6735.E1.L1 .. PASS hapConX=[0.005,0.007]

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...82833/tree

The same J1 CTS1026 branch of:
Khvalynsk-2, Russia 5206-4935 BCE
Arslantepe 18  Malatya - Turkey 3491-3109 BCE BCE
Shatar Chuulu 2  Afanasievo - Mongolia  3316-2916 BCE
Shah Tepe 12 Golestan - Iran  3200-3100 BCE
Velikent 7 Dagestan - Russia  3000-2800 BCE