The GenArchivist Forum

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Archaeological Indo-European and Iranian Y-DNA J1 - Database
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/1...database/1

Oldie but Goldie - Gilak - Iran - "Testimony Peoples" from the Caspian Sea genoplot.com/discussions/topic/25511/oldie-but-goldie-gilak-iran-testimony-peoples-from-the-caspian-sea/1

Missing Links in Paternal Haplogroup J1-M267. Filling in the J1-M267 Phylogenetic Gap. Two Mesolithic Clades of Human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267: J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599.
https://zenodo.org/record/5528265

Ancient J1 Map
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid...000004&z=3

Ancient Iranian - ISBA 10 - 2023 - ABSTRACT HGP-003 Genomic analyses of Seleucid and Parthian period population in North Iran Speaker: Motahareh Amjadi
https://genarchivist.freeforums.net/thre...ranian-dna

Afanasievo interests me a lot because a couple of ancient Afanasievo samples, Shatar Chuluu 1 and Nileke 5-3, are R1b-P310. I was reading about Afanasievo a couple of days ago, and I noticed that the Afanasievo male at Shatar Chuluu in Grave 2 (Shatar Chuluu 2) is J1-Y136779. Cool!

I read that the Afanasievo samples are virtually identical to Yamnaya in terms of autosomal DNA.

Here's a map showing the burial locations of those two R1b-P310 Afanasievo guys and the J1-Y136779 guy in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections, Shatar Chuluu 1, Nileke 5-3, and Shatar Chuluu 2. They are numbers 9 (Shatar Chuluu) and 6 (Nileke 5-3) on the map. The Nileke County site (also known as Nilka County) is referred to as G218 III. Shatar Chuluu is in Mongolia. Nileke County is in Xinjiang, China.

Sorry to blather on, but here's my idea as to why there are a few different Y-DNA haplogroups among the early Indo-Europeans and not just one, yet their autosomal DNA is pretty uniform and consistent. I chalk that up to female exogamy. The different tribes on the steppe were dominated by different Y-DNA haplogroups - here one, there another - but they sent their daughters out to other tribes as wives of the men of that tribe. They accepted women from tribes other than their own as wives. Thus there was a constant churning and mixing that kept the autosomal DNA uniform while the dominant Y-DNA lines of the particular tribes were preserved. 

To me that makes the most sense: a handful (not many) different Y-DNA haplogroups, but pretty uniform, consistent autosomal DNA across the Indo-European steppe pastoralist tribes.

Yes, they had a diversity of haplogroups. They used the Afanasievo J1 IBD's in the article: "ancIBD - Screening for identity by descent segments in human ancient DNA".

Quote:We found that several nomadic Steppe groups associated with the Yamnaya culture that dates to around 3000 BCE share relatively large amounts of IBD with each other (Fig. 5). Notably, this IBD cluster includes also individuals associated with the Afanasievo culture near the Central Asian Altai mountains several thousands of kilometers east. This signal of IBD sharing confirms the previous archaeological hypothesis that Afanasievo and Yamnaya are closely linked despite the vast geographic distance from Eastern Europe to Central Asia

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10028887/

If I understood correctly you think J1 men brought Indo-European languages to the steppe?
If so where are these pre bronze age Indo european languages of iran?
This is one of the original languages of Iranian neolithic farmers:"Elamite is generally considered a language isolate unrelated to any other languages." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam
BMAC was almost surely not indo-european speaking, the same goes for all of the places overwhelmingly inhabited by iranian-neolithic farmers during or before the chalcolithic, their language was likely something similar to Hurro-Urartian, Elamite or even dravidian languages.
Also the southern element present in steppe has little to do with iran and central asian neolithic farmers, it was more akin to CHG.

J1 surely was a vector of the very minor male mediated southern caucasian (CHG) genetics into the steppe since mesolithic times (due to the 3 EHGs under J1).

Quote:Sephesakueu wrote:  If I understood correctly you think J1 men brought Indo-European languages to the steppe?

I don't want to get into an argument here, but I don't buy the "south of the Caucasus" view of the PIE Urheimat. I don't doubt that J1-M267 was one of a number of PIE Y-DNA haplogroups, including R1b-M269, R1a-M417, I-L699, and Q1 (I forget the specific subclades), but I think IE originated on the Eurasian steppe.

My position is the same for several years. Let's wait for new results.

- J1 was born in the Eastern Wing of the Southern Arc strongly associated with the CHG-IRAN component and expanded to all directions creating new admixed populations in the steppe.

- All recent major papers like Lazaridis, Southern Arc, Heggarty, Language trees with sampled ancestors support a hybrid model for the origin of Indo-European languages, more David Reich and Johannes Krause books are confirming the Indo-European Southern position. More papers to come with the Arrival.

- Diversity and complexity of the Indo-European languages were born in the South. Anatolian Languages were the first to split and local languages are still being discovered like the new Anatolian, Indo-European language, Kalasma in 2023. Indo-Iranian big diversity exists only in the South, side by side with Greek in the Aegean and Armenian in the Caucasus, in a big continuation of neighbour languages. The extension and diversity of languages in the Western Iranian complex in Northern Iran has a major genetic continuity since the Mesolithic in general terms, we can also observe the local and native Y-DNA clades, no local replacement, the prevail and continuity of Ancient Iranian Y-DNA lineages and no sign of any major external Bronze Age or Iron Age recent expansion, what means "no big daddy club" of immediate/primary descendant lineages in the ancient settled Iranian core areas in opposition to the newly invaded peripherical expansion areas like Europe, where local clades were Indo-Europeanized from the forest-steppe to the West.

- My J1-FGC6035 lineage was Iranian in the Iron Age via local matches and was in NW Iran or somewhere adjacent since the Mesolithic as a lineage split in J1-L620. We are one of the few Iranian lineages to reach the Westernmost End of Eurasia in Atlantic NW Iberia (Iranic Alans as one hypothesis or other) and ramificated in Northern Portugal with the "Portuguese Reconquista" since before the year 1000 CE as "Cristãos Velhos". We are part of the Conquest and Formation of Brazilian Portuguese Colonial Elite and we speak Medieval Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese as a continuity and I think we have been speaking forms of Proto-Indo-European since the beginning in some Ancient Iranian population.

(10-19-2023, 02:50 PM)RCO Wrote: [ -> ]My position is the same for several years. Let's wait for new results.

- J1 was born in the Eastern Wing of the Southern Arc strongly associated with the CHG-IRAN component and expanded to all directions creating new admixed populations in the steppe.

- All recent major papers like Lazaridis, Southern Arc, Heggarty, Language trees with sampled ancestors support a hybrid model for the origin of Indo-European languages, more David Reich and Johannes Krause books are confirming the Indo-European Southern position. More papers to come with the Arrival.

- Diversity and complexity of the Indo-European languages were born in the South. Anatolian Languages were the first to split and local languages are still being discovered like the new Anatolian, Indo-European language, Kalasma in 2023. Indo-Iranian big diversity exists only in the South, side by side with Greek in the Aegean and Armenian in the Caucasus, in a big continuation of neighbour languages. The extension and diversity of languages in the Western Iranian complex in Northern Iran has a major genetic continuity since the Mesolithic in general terms, we can also observe the local and native Y-DNA clades, no local replacement, the prevail and continuity of Ancient Iranian Y-DNA lineages and no sign of any major external Bronze Age or Iron Age recent expansion, what means "no big daddy club" of immediate/primary descendant lineages in the ancient settled Iranian core areas in opposition to the newly invaded peripherical expansion areas like Europe, where local clades were Indo-Europeanized from the forest-steppe to the West.

- My J1-FGC6035 lineage was Iranian in the Iron Age via local matches and was in NW Iran or somewhere adjacent since the Mesolithic as a lineage split in J1-L620. We are one of the few Iranian lineages to reach the Westernmost End of Eurasia in Atlantic NW Iberia (Iranic Alans as one hypothesis or other)  and ramificated in Northern Portugal with the "Portuguese Reconquista" since before the year 1000 CE  as "Cristãos Velhos". We are part of the Conquest and Formation of Brazilian Portuguese Colonial Elite and we speak Medieval Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese as a continuity and I think we have been speaking forms of Proto-Indo-European since the beginning in some Ancient Iranian population.

I also lean towards the Southern Arc homeland, but how do we explain the fact that most Y lineages found in the early steppe cultures belong to EHG? There are only one or two haplogroup J's found.

I7929 REV3.19 Revova, Kurgan 3, Burial 1913 4905±20 (PSUAMS-4763) 3711-3639 calBCE M U4d3 J1 (J-FT265222)

Quote:  The J-Y6313-deived J-FT265222 lineage of Y haplogroup J1 identified in a genetically Usatove individual from the Revova kurgan (Burial 19) is present in modern populations of 30 Europe, as well as Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Another Usatove male from Mayaky carried the R1a lineage, has a widespread Eurasian distribution, but its initial diversification is thought to have started in Iran1

Suppl.

Quote: I7929 REV-3.19, Revova Kurgan 3, Burial 19, male, 3711-3639 calBCE (4905±20 BP, PSUAMS-4763) 80 Burial 19 was the main burial in the kurgan. The burial was found at a distance of 2.1 m to the east-northeast of the central benchmark, at a depth of 1.05 m. Scattered and mostly fragmentary human bones lay throughout the fill area in the eastern part of the pit. The layerby-layer analysis of the remains suggests that the state and placement of the bone remains were consistent with the rite of secondary burial, perhaps with an imitation of the sitting position of the buried, possibly wrapped in cloth. The upper level of the bone “package” was occupied by the remains of the skull (parietal bones) and cervical vertebrae, the middle level consisted of the ribs, and the lumbar vertebrae and the sacrum lay in the lower tier. The bones of the left leg were completely missing, including the foot. The tibia of the right leg, also without a foot, was in a vertical position, while the femur lay horizontally with its head turned towards the main body of bones. The vertical position was occupied by the radius of the right hand. Other bones of the arms, including the hands, were absent. The zygomatic bones were located at the bottom of the pit. A patella rested somewhat away from the main assembly. Some fragments of the skull were painted with ochre. At the bottom of the burial chamber, near the bones, grains of scarlet ochre were noted. The dust from burnt timber planks extended throughout the chamber floor.

A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...7.589600v1
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...y-material

The J1 in Khvalynsk-2, burial 26

The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...y-material

Quote:I6735 I6735 30 (Khvalynsk-2, burial 26) petrous whole-genome analysis First genome-wide ancient DNA data from this individual Khokhlov, Alexander A. Direct: IntCal20 (there is a freshwater reservoir effect of ~300-700 years at this site estimated based on direct dates on herbivore bones in two graves for which there is a direct date on human bone but this is not applied) 6981 71 5206-4935 calBCE (6100±25 BP, PSUAMS-4163) 17-22 yrs; female? Kmed Khvalynsk-2 (Saratov Oblast, Khvalynsky District, Khvalynsk town) Russia 52,35336944 48,07836667 1240k 1 1 4,278174128 846495 M n/a (no relatives detected) 0 0 215 U4a J-CTS1026 J1 [0.991,0.998] 0,095 0,418 [0.003,0.007] [0.005,0.007] ds.half S6735.E1.L1 S6735.E1.L1 .. PASS hapConX=[0.005,0.007]

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...82833/tree

The same J1 CTS1026 branch of:
Khvalynsk-2, Russia 5206-4935 BCE
Arslantepe 18  Malatya - Turkey 3491-3109 BCE BCE
Shatar Chuulu 2  Afanasievo - Mongolia  3316-2916 BCE
Shah Tepe 12 Golestan - Iran  3200-3100 BCE
Velikent 7 Dagestan - Russia  3000-2800 BCE

The genetic and demographic concept of Caucasus/Iranian hunter-gatherers (CIHG) in the new Pathak (2024) article is just noting what we know for a long time.
A big and diverse Caucasus/Iranian hunter-gatherers (CIHG) in the Southern Caucasus and Northern Iran with small local specific differences.
Other example: - The explanation of five phylogenetic J1-L620 nodes around Armenia 12,000/11,000 BCE is another evidence of an ancient big local population still branching and expanding associated to a new mode of production.

7 J-L620 12,000 BCE info stone Stone Age 3,000 years 2 18,213
6 J-FGC6064 12,000 BCE info stone Stone Age <1,000 years 2 24
5 J-ZS7134 12,000 BCE info stone Stone Age <1,000 years 2 7
4 J-BY97605 11,000 BCE info stone Stone Age 1,000 years 2 5
3 J-BY221827 11,000 BCE info stone Stone Age <1,000 years 2 4

Quote: RCO
We are here debating about the origins of Yamnaya and Yamanya steppe's formation where CHG-IRAN and J1 were present and in my position J haplogroup was extremely decisive since the Mesolithic.

I agree with you that the authors (Lazaridis, Anthony, Reich) are not interested in explaining why J1 was found in the steppe in all major movements and populations

Quote: Kale
May I ask a few questions to better understand your position?
- Just to be clear, you think PPIE was South of the Caucasus, and that the PPIE/PIE/IE bearers in CLV were their Southern ancestry component? (whom I think none would contest would have been predominantly y-hg J)
- Do you think PIE spread from the CLV population, or that CLV represents some subset of IE languages? If the latter, which stage was CLV, and who spread the earlier stages?

#38905-07-2024, 04:20 PM
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...8#pid18488

The Caucasus/Iranian hunter-gatherers (CIHG) entrance/arrival in the Northern steppe was just a Southern movement.
Caucasus-Lower Volga (CLV) cline people was just the edge of something bigger to the South, I’m always saying something that’s just the edge of something more to the South and Southeast, around the Caspian Sea, where ancient samples were still not prospected and investigated, the original and first source of PIE.


Pathak 2024 - https://www.cell.com/iscience/pdf/S2589-...all%3Dtrue

Pathak's CIHG just sounds like Iran_HG from Vallini et al 2024

"We found that after accounting for East and Basal Eurasian confounders, the populations that harbour the WEC component closer to the Hub population (grayscale gradient of population points in Fig. 2A, Supplementary Data 11) are the ones whose West Eurasian ancestry is related to the hunter gatherers and early farmers from Iran48. This is a genetic ancestry commonly referred to as the Iran Neolithic or the East Meta, here named Iran HG for clarity (Supplementary Data 11). The Iran HG ancestry is widespread not only in modern-day Iran but also across ancient and modern samples from the Caucasus (in particular in the Mesolithic hunter gatherers of that region) and in the northwestern part of South Asia. "

Lumping these together when talking about the formation of Indo-European seems counterproductive. Why would we obscure the difference between groups related to a gigantic Pleistocene ancestry pool if we're trying to talk about distinct migrations and pulses of admixture?

Vallini et al 2024 is a very interesting article, the Persian plateau served as a crucial hub but it is completely undertested and undersampled.
Sampling 200 ancient individuals from Iran and the closest regions from the Paleolithic, Mesolithic, Eneolithic, Bronze Age to the Iron Age are urgently needed.

The second most ancient J1 found in Minino (Min3), Russia, 7472 BCE (approx,)
https://x.com/PhilistiaForeva/status/179...6692980168

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/ERR8616870
PRJEB47916 SAMEA12991529 ERX8282791 ERR8616870 9606 Homo sapiens Min3.bam

http://doi.org/10.25358/openscience-3112 Autoren: Blöcher, Jens Titel: Genetic variation related to the adaptation of humans to an agriculturalist lifestyle Online-Publikationsdatum: 24-Apr-2020

The general ancient J1 list from CHG-IRAN to EHG and other admixtures:

Satsurblia Cave - Georgia 11461-11225 BCE
Minino Min3 - Russia 7472 BCE
Yuzhnyy 40 - Karelia, Russia 6773-5886 BCE
KRD003 - Karahüyük, Hatay, Turkey 5714-5572 BCE
Popovo2 - Russia 5500-5000 BCE
Khvalynsk-2 - Russia 5206-4935 BCE
Gumelnița 4 - Romenia 4045-3816 BCE
Vasilyevsky Kordon 163 - Don, Russia 3771-3536 BCE
Revova kurgan I7929 - Ukraine 3711-3639 BCE
Geoksyur 12481 - Turkmenistan 12487 3500-2800
Arslantepe 18 - Malatya, Turkey 3491-3109 BCE
Marinskaya 5008 - Stavropol, Russia 3369-3103 BCE
Shatar Chuulu 2 - Afanasievo, Mongolia 3316-2916 BCE
Shah Tepe 12 - Golestan, Iran 3200-3100 BCE
Velikent 7 - Dagestan, Russia 3000-2800 BCE
Lazarides 17 - Aegina, Greece 2881-2635 BCE
Gonur 1784 - Turkmenistan 2204-2027 BCE
Nea Styra 1 - Euboea, Greece 2568-2348 BCE

In the Ytree
https://www.theytree.com/tree/J-L255

Minino is the third most ancient, the second most ancient J1 would be Nemrik - I6457 - Mesopotamia_PPN - IRQ_Nemrik9_PPN_10700ybp around 8700-8600 BCE
Mesopotamia Pre-Pottery Neolithic - Iraq
Dados : The genetic history of the Southern Arc: a bridge between West Asia and Europe https://doi.org/10.1126/science.abm4247 recalculated