Croatian Migration Era breakdown

[Leeloo]

Target: Bukva_father
Distance: 1.8274% / 0.01827435
67.2 Slav_proxy
32.4 Illyro-Roman
0.4 Asian

Your Slav_medieval doesn't fit to us that well. This is one I made is more Balto-Slavic like. From 3.17 to 1.82 reduction in distance, and German is gone.

Code:

Slav_proxy,0.13100482,0.127428115,0.076713868,0.070202767,0.037995783,0.031810557,0.011687291,0.013470371,-0.002809884,-0.024040643,-0.006156002,-0.005388771,0.018035942,0.029634356,-0.010994435,-0.008493723,-0.010030366,-0.003818951,0.002675593,-0.00874243,-0.002410523,-0.002930757,0.011274889,-0.003391698,-0.003268445

Average isn't made to fit specific individuals, but everyone. It is based on EE-related Slavs from Balkan peper (medieval Czechia, Croatia, Slovakia, Austria and Avar_Szolad 2)

Goal was to estimate Slavic ancestry based on genetic makeup of Slavs from migration era.

It is pointless to look for better fit for individual samples, averages matter. There is no model which produces tight fit for every indivudual and tighter fit does not equal being historically accurate.

I know that you can't make it fit great for everyone, thats not the point I made. Not all Slavic populations were identical, even if you put Lithuania_Marvele sample, some Slovenian and Croatian samples lose your slavic sample entirely.

Just wanted to add to discussion, point out that for some South Slavs and Ukranians slavic ancestry is much more Baltic shifted, not that your slavic sample is wrong.

True.

In my own case my Slavic ancestry is very Baltic shifted. My Slavic part corresponds better with Lithuania and even Latvia than with anything Slavic which never made much sense to me.

[Leeloo]

here are some samples I have at hand right now (list is incomplete)

Code:

Dalmatia_Žirje_Island_scaled,0.129758,0.140143,0.050534,0.020672,0.035699,0.009761,0.00658,0.012692,-0.003068,0.002005,-0.008931,-0.002847,0.004311,0.014726,-0.006243,0.002784,0.003781,-0.001014,0.004148,-0.005253,-0.009483,-0.011623,0.00419,-0.001928,-0.001197
Dalmatia_Zlarin_Island_scaled,0.125205,0.145221,0.051666,0.030039,0.035083,0.013945,0.00799,0.007384,-0.003477,-0.008201,-0.003573,-0.005095,0.008028,0.02202,-0.018187,-0.014054,-0.011343,0.002534,0.00729,-0.004877,-0.004617,-0.006554,0.010476,-0.006989,0.002515
Dalmatia_Zlarin_Island_scaled,0.132035,0.13405,0.050911,0.030362,0.035083,0.006972,0.005405,0.008769,0,-0.003462,-0.008282,-0.001798,0.002379,0.009771,-0.005157,-0.004375,-0.004694,0.001394,0.001508,0.00075,-0.002496,-0.012118,-0.002218,-0.008194,-0.003592
Gorski_kotar_Razloge_scaled,0.130897 ,0.132019,0.053551,0.031977,0.0397,0.014502,0.0136 31,0.013153,0.003886,-0.008383,-0.004222,-0.004946,0.005946,0.004542,-0.006922,0.006232,0.008214,0.003927,0.001383,0.000 875,-0.002995,0.005688,0.000986,0.004579,-0.001557
Varazdin_scaled,0.1286 2,0.128972,0.057699,0.04522,0.040315,0.011435,0.00 4465,0.000923,0.001227,-0.01221,-0.006008,-0.007643,0.007136,0.008533,-0.003257,0.000663,0.000391,0.000633,-0.001383,-0.007504,-0.005865,0.005812,0.0053,0.001084,0.002874
Prigorje_Jastrebarsko_scaled,0.121791,0.128972 ,0.057322,0.047481,0.042162,0.014502,0.0094,0.0009 23,0.005727,-0.009112,-0.003248,0.001049,0.005203,0.019955,-0.005836,-0.010209,-0.01356,-0.0019,0.005405,-0.001,0.002246,-0.002597,0.005546,0.004458,0.00012
Primorje_Veli_Brgud+Lošinj_Island_scaled,0.133173,0.137096,0.055814, 0.039729,0.041238,0.014223,0.006815,0.007154,-0.005318,-0.010934,-0.003085,-0.002698,0.002527,0.015276,-0.009636,0.000928,0.013169,-0.00114,0.003142,-0.002876,0.003868,-0.001855,0.004807,-0.00494,-0.002515
Primorje+Murter_Island_scaled,0.132035,0.139128,0.049403, 0.029393,0.036622,0.005578,0.00799,0.008077,-0.00225,0.000364,0.00341,-0.015436,0.002973,0.028901,-0.013165,-0.010209,-0.011213,-0.004181,0.009804,0.008879,-0.006863,-0.000866,0,0.000482,-0.003832
Dubrovnik_scaled,0.13317 3,0.13405,0.048271,0.025517,0.03693,0.011713,0.007 05,0.003923,0.004909,-0.002187,-0.001786,-0.009442,0.001933,0.011285,-0.007465,-0.003978,0.004303,-0.00076,0.009553,0.002126,-0.00574,-0.000742,0.006286,-0.008073,0.00502
Slavonia_Šokac+Lika_scaled,0.126344,0.132019,0 .037335,0.044897,0.026159,0.015339,0.00423,0.00369 2,0.000614,-0.012392,-0.003248,-0.004046,0.002973,0.015414,-0.010722,-0.007823,0.00352,-0.003421,0.014078,0.001376,-0.013975,-0.008408,0.008381,-0.000723,-0.000958
Bosnia_scaled,0.12862,0.131 003,0.041483,0.025517,0. 02462,0.005857,-0.001645,0.004846,0.008181,-0.001458,0.001299,-0.007343,0.010109,0.024222,-0.011808,-0.008884,-0.004955,0.001014,0.004274,-0.007879,-0.006738,-0.005688,0.005546,0.006868,-0.004191
Bosnia_Livno_scaled,0.121791,0.133034,0.0445,0.023 902,0.032929,0.007251,0.00611,0.009923,0.002659,-0.002734,-0.00406,-0.009442,0.006987,0.017203,-0.014929,0.008618,0.021905,-0.001647,0.002514,0.005253,-0.010107,-0.000495,0.003697,0.003374,-0.000239
Bosnia_Livno_scaled,0.117238,0.14319,0.040729,0 .020349,0.028005,0.006693,0.0094,0.013153,0.002045 ,-0.00328,-0.004222,-0.011989,0.008176,0.018717,-0.014794,0.009281,0.022687,0.000887,0.003771,0.012 131,-0.010357,0.005317,0.007518,0.003494,-0.000479
Hvar_Island+Banovina+Bosnia_scaled,0.12862,0.127957,0. 058077,0.027455,0.036007,0.017012,0.00564,0.001846 ,0.00225,-0.005467,-0.005034,-0.001349,0.0055,0.008533,-0.013843,0.009944,0.022035,-0.006461,0.003897,-0.002001,0.004118,-0.002968,0.009737,-0.003133,-0.003353

[ph2ter]

Isn't the Germanic component a bit high for the North Western group? Looks as high as in some Slovenians and Hungarians. Do the Kajkavians have known German-Hungarian settlement? How many Kajkavian samples did you use?

It's the reality. Kajkavian Croats are more northern shifted than Slovenes and Hungarians on average and many cluster closest to academic average of Czechs from Prague.

Germanic ancestry in the region seems medieval since it is evenly spread in the rural population. There were some German Saxon miners in some towns, but far too little to impact autosomal genetics in such a way.

It is quite interesting since historiography did not record a major Germanic expansion in the area as far as I am aware. I used 7-8 samples with deeply rooted ancestry, which should be enough since they all have rather uniform scores and come from various locations. Only one sample is different to others, and that one is Kajkavian speaker from Gorski kotar which is region cut from main Kajkavian region in north Croatia and with complex settlement history. His score is more Slovene-like than Kajkavian like and it actually correlates with dialect spoken in his region that some lignuists classify as Slovene-proper influenced.

Well, thank you, but there is a contradiction. If its Medieval, but there were just a few Saxon miners with no big impact, what else could it have been? Must be Pre-Medieval.

I thought its particularly odd that other Croatians get zero Germanic, even though I know that some components can leap, like low admixture being sometimes overlooked by the algorithm.

Such a high number should be reflected in uniparentals too by the way. Is that the case?

Perhaps I should have clarified better. It should be from migration era, not from later Saxon arrivals. There were Langobards and Goths in the region, but I believed they just passed trough the area without significant settlement. Well, genetics say otherwise.

There is pretty sharp cut between Kajkavian and non Kajkavian speakers that I find rather surprising. There are some more transitional zones indeed, like southern part of central Croatia where all three major Croatian dialects once met (so modern štokavian speaking Croats from there can have kajkavian-like substrata, I saw some examples like that, on gedmatch though).

Never studied haplogroups of the region much tbh. I know they have notably more R1b than other Croatian regions, but I think most of it is of Celtic variety, if I am not mistaken. There is some I1 too but overall I can't say I noticed large presence of Germanic-related haplogroups. Ph2ter should know more, he is from the region.

Varaždin has 17% of R1b+I1. In Varaždin case these R1b and I1 should not be the usual Balkan I1 or Balkan R1b clades (but nobody made the proper research of these y-DNA clades yet).

[Bukva_]

Isn't the Germanic component a bit high for the North Western group? Looks as high as in some Slovenians and Hungarians. Do the Kajkavians have known German-Hungarian settlement? How many Kajkavian samples did you use?

It's the reality. Kajkavian Croats are more northern shifted than Slovenes and Hungarians on average and many cluster closest to academic average of Czechs from Prague.

Germanic ancestry in the region seems medieval since it is evenly spread in the rural population. There were some German Saxon miners in some towns, but far too little to impact autosomal genetics in such a way.

It is quite interesting since historiography did not record a major Germanic expansion in the area as far as I am aware. I used 7-8 samples with deeply rooted ancestry, which should be enough since they all have rather uniform scores and come from various locations. Only one sample is different to others, and that one is Kajkavian speaker from Gorski kotar which is region cut from main Kajkavian region in north Croatia and with complex settlement history. His score is more Slovene-like than Kajkavian like and it actually correlates with dialect spoken in his region that some lignuists classify as Slovene-proper influenced.

Well, thank you, but there is a contradiction. If its Medieval, but there were just a few Saxon miners with no big impact, what else could it have been? Must be Pre-Medieval.

I thought its particularly odd that other Croatians get zero Germanic, even though I know that some components can leap, like low admixture being sometimes overlooked by the algorithm.

Such a high number should be reflected in uniparentals too by the way. Is that the case?

Perhaps I should have clarified better. It should be from migration era, not from later Saxon arrivals. There were Langobards and Goths in the region, but I believed they just passed trough the area without significant settlement. Well, genetics say otherwise.

There is pretty sharp cut between Kajkavian and non Kajkavian speakers that I find rather surprising. There are some more transitional zones indeed, like southern part of central Croatia where all three major Croatian dialects once met (so modern štokavian speaking Croats from there can have kajkavian-like substrata, I saw some examples like that, on gedmatch though).

Never studied haplogroups of the region much tbh. I know they have notably more R1b than other Croatian regions, but I think most of it is of Celtic variety, if I am not mistaken. There is some I1 too but overall I can't say I noticed large presence of Germanic-related haplogroups. Ph2ter should know more, he is from the region.

When you look at my father, he's profile is mostly like that of kajkavian Croat, but missing that Germanic like component. Regarding his ancestry and paper trail, majority of surnames are natives of medieval Gorica and Modruše county and migrants from Turkish Croatia (Pounje). That was inland chakavian population, but also transitional zone with kajkavian (in area between Kupa and Dobra).

As of haplogroups, not a lot of them tested, but what I found that R-Y2613 dominates. With few I2a2 and I-S17250 samples.

Distance to: Bukva_father
0.02497643 Croat_Kajkavian
0.02672309 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.02755750 Slovenian*
0.02832215 Croatian
0.02978552 Hungarian

* - not davidski standard, added samples from other study

[Leeloo]

Would really like to see more samples from Kordun and Banovina, since I have minor ancestry from there (Banovina/Pounje) as well. Unfortunately southern part of central Croatia is very undertested.

I saw one fully native sample from Zrin, Banovina (village that doesn't exist anymore), but on gedmatch only and it had similar profile like your father. Here are simulated coords, but keep in mind they can be rather innacurate compared to the real thing:

Code:

Croat_Zrin,0.134147,0.138565,0.060681,0.038417,0.041538,0.015319,0.007083,0.008504,0.004872,-0.002676,-0.004154,-0.003581,0.005145,0.016941,-0.004995,0.001521,0.002067,0.001012,0.005994,-0.000393,0.000216,-0.005576,0.002665,0.002213,0.000084

[Leeloo]

Also I edited list of samples I posted. One of them I wrongly labeled as part from Cres, while it is Lošinj instead. Corrected.

[Leeloo]

I gave it a try:

Target: Mik
Distance: 1.7705% / 0.01770530
64.6 Slavic_medieval
35.4 Illyro-Roman

Target: Mik_Mom
Distance: 1.8938% / 0.01893774
57.8 Slavic_medieval
42.2 Illyro-Roman

Target: Mik_Dad
Distance: 2.7812% / 0.02781229
61.2 Slavic_medieval
38.8 Illyro-Roman

Target: Mik_Cousin
Distance: 1.3690% / 0.01369035
63.4 Slavic_medieval
36.4 Illyro-Roman
0.2 Asian

Are you perhaps willing to share your's family coords? They would serve my database well since you are entirely from one region. I could make a PCA. And also, are the coords genuine?

[Bukva_]

My father and me, he is a great sample for Croats from Kordun, few villages next to each other back to 1700s, also I have minor ancestry from Hrvatsko Zagorje (Great great grandfather).

Code:

Kordun_Slunj_scaled,0.132035,0.131003,0.056945,0.036822,0.033545,0.021753,0.00517,0.00923,0.00409,-0.005103,-0.008444,-0.002997,0.004906,0.018992,-0.011943,-0.01432,-0.010561,-0.004434,0.003897,-0.012631,-0.005241,-0.003957,0.007272,-0.00241,-0.002155
Kordun_Slunj+Ogulin_scaled,0.134311,0.129988,0.058077,0.0323,0.03416,0.016733,0.008225,0.005307,0.002045,0,-0.012504,-0.001798,0.008771,0.016652,-0.012215,-0.011933,-0.01017,-0.001267,0.005279,-0.007253,-0.000749,0,0.00419,-0.005422,0.00012

Some other samples I found online

Code:

Croat_Kajkavian,0.134311,0.127957,0.060339,0.044574,0.034468,0.018128,0.004935,0.004384,0.001636,-0.008747,-0.003735,-0.001948,0.006244,0.015551,-0.0057,-0.008353,-0.006128,-0.00152,0.007668,0.002751,-0.002121,0,0.002095,-0.00012,-0.000958
Croat_Main,0.1271975,0.1370968,0.0439345,0.030039,0.031929,0.0098308,0.0071675,0.0072112,0.0013295,-0.0043738,-0.0014615,-0.0102282,0.0040138,0.0185792,-0.0115365,-0.0031822,0.0048242,-0.0018688,0.0093015,0.006128,-0.0092338,-0.0011748,0.0055462,-0.001205,-0.0000622
Croat_North,0.1289048,0.1277028,0.0581705,0.0453815,0.0376225,0.0175005,0.00564,0.0028268,0.0014828,-0.0096585,-0.0032478,-0.0034092,0.0052775,0.014932,-0.0044108,-0.003613,-0.0021515,-0.000285,0.0050592,-0.0014695,-0.0010295,0.0022568,0.0036975,0.0021085,-0.0000298

Simulated sample, his sim is very similar to my fathers

Code:

Croat_Slunj+Bosiljevo,0.136316,0.133618,0.062405,0.045421,0.039019,0.018082,0.008318,0.009734,-0.000734,-0.006985,-0.004557,-0.001306,0.002041,0.016441,-0.005299,-0.002582,0.002254,-0.000749,0.004543,0.000744,-0.000380,-0.004031,0.001272,0.000607,0.001184

Slovenian samples not included in Davidski average

Code:

Slovenian:F037395,0.125205,0.136081,0.062979,0.04199,0.018157,0.017012,-0.009635,0.003461,-0.003068,-0.012028,-0.00065,-0.016785,0.015312,0.009909,0.00285,0.006762,-0.014081,0.006714,0.006285,-0.00075,-0.028575,0.00272,0.015899,-0.004458,0.001437
Slovenian:F037870,0.136588,0.133034,0.067882,0.041344,0.02462,0.016176,0.00235,0.000923,-0.003886,0.002187,-0.005034,-0.007044,-0.006838,-0.001789,-0.008143,0.000398,0.031814,-0.007728,0.01345,0.002376,-0.012228,-0.008285,-0.003081,-0.015424,-0.006586
Slovenian:F037872,0.134311,0.137096,0.062225,0.050065,0.024004,0.031515,0.014101,-0.003461,0.00634,-0.01385,-0.012991,0.002398,0.000892,0.012799,0.006243,0.007823,0.015516,0.011275,0.011313,-0.002876,0.002371,-0.008532,-0.006162,-0.004097,0.017004
Slovenian:F037892,0.126344,0.127957,0.059585,0.037791,0.025543,0.031794,0.012926,0.003,-0.008181,-0.00492,-0.00341,-0.003147,0.005203,0.010597,-0.006379,-0.016839,0.012256,0.000253,0.006788,0.002001,-0.005989,-0.017806,0.000739,-0.012893,0.002275
Slovenian:F037911,0.135449,0.123895,0.04978,0.03876,0.03416,0.013387,0.010575,0.014538,0.00225,-0.001458,0.008444,0,0.002081,0.005505,-0.001086,-0.003978,0.013169,-0.007095,0.004399,-0.004502,0,-0.001484,0.005176,-0.003615,-0.006826
Slovenian:F037921,0.135449,0.131003,0.056568,0.046189,0.028313,0.015618,0.022091,0.010846,0.002863,0.011299,0.016726,-0.002698,0.018731,0.018029,-0.011401,0.015646,0.014994,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.007003,-0.003244,-0.001237,-0.011092,0.013737,-0.007424
Slovenian:F037924,0.125205,0.138112,0.046763,0.02584,0.037545,0.005578,0.004935,0.014538,0.002454,0.000911,0.005846,0.005245,-0.002676,0.014863,-0.00475,0.01127,-0.013169,-0.002787,0.01986,-0.013381,-0.002246,-0.011252,0.000863,-0.009881,-0.005628
Slovenian:F037925,0.126344,0.136081,0.051666,0.037468,0.032006,0.006693,-0.006815,0.013384,0.00225,-0.012757,-0.006658,-0.004346,0.000149,0.015689,-0.010722,-0.006895,0.013038,-0.005828,0.005656,-0.005378,-0.005116,-0.002226,0.015776,0.007832,-0.008742
Slovenian:F037926,0.132035,0.138112,0.026776,0.02907,0.029852,0.008088,0.005875,0.009461,0.010635,0.015855,-0.016726,0.003747,0.007879,0.021744,-0.012758,-0.01432,-0.01369,0.002787,0.005782,0.008754,-0.015098,-0.015086,0.009244,0.011447,-0.000838
Slovenian:F038033,0.127482,0.132019,0.055814,0.039406,0.044008,0.019522,0.00376,0.014999,0.002454,-0.000364,-0.003735,-0.004646,0.017096,0.022295,-0.005293,0.00716,0.021383,-0.004687,0.004777,-0.005378,-0.003119,0.009769,-0.001232,0.011327,0.000239
Slovenian:F038074,0.133173,0.136081,0.052043,0.043605,0.035083,0.013666,0.007755,0.00923,-0.004909,-0.01385,-0.004709,-0.007194,0.005054,0.01679,0.006922,0.007955,0.018384,0.00114,0.015209,0.006378,-0.006489,0.000618,0.006409,0.011929,0.005508
Slovenian:F038083,0.143417,0.136081,0.046009,0.039083,0.045547,0.014223,0.00376,0.008769,0.005522,-0.003098,0.000325,0.007044,0.002081,0.022432,-0.004886,0.005569,-0.014473,0.00152,0.00088,0.001876,-0.013227,-0.001237,-0.00493,0.006025,0.006586
Slovenian:F038210,0.122929,0.139128,0.050157,0.023902,0.032314,0.011992,0.00141,0.002077,-0.010431,0.003098,-0.00747,-0.000599,0.011001,0.015964,-0.0095,0.00769,0.006128,-0.015076,0.008547,-0.002626,-0.003119,0.002968,0.009244,0.005784,-0.003952
Slovenian:F038211,0.134311,0.126941,0.053928,0.046189,0.024928,0.019522,0.005405,0.008538,0.015953,-0.006378,-0.00065,-0.003597,0.011893,0.017203,-0.000407,-0.012596,-0.001565,0.005194,-0.004399,-0.003377,-0.006114,0.01014,-0.003574,-0.004458,-0.004431
Slovenian:F038235,0.127482,0.118817,0.059208,0.045866,0.041546,0.017849,0.007285,-0.000462,0.002659,-0.002551,-0.003248,-0.003897,0.007879,0.002202,-0.014115,0.010607,0.018906,0.003674,-0.003017,0.016633,0.002496,0.006306,0.001849,0.013857,0.001437
Slovenian:F038247,0.12862,0.142174,0.060339,0.033915,0.028313,0.007809,0.007285,0.005307,-0.011658,-0.004556,-0.000974,-0.00015,-0.001784,-0.001239,-0.001357,0.006099,0.002347,-0.002407,-0.000628,0.016133,-0.00574,0.007172,-0.005176,-0.016629,0.000958
Slovenian:F038257,0.117238,0.136081,0.059962,0.040375,0.025235,0.026495,0.000705,0.00923,-0.012271,-0.002734,-0.002273,-0.007044,0.008771,-0.004817,-0.007329,-0.006232,-0.012778,-0.004307,0.005279,0.001251,0,-0.001237,-0.00419,-0.000723,-0.006706
Slovenian:F038306,0.134311,0.132019,0.067882,0.053618,0.032929,0.017012,0.012691,0.003231,-0.002045,-0.012028,-0.004384,-0.002997,0.013677,0.015551,-0.013165,-0.011403,-0.014342,0.009502,-0.000754,0.014632,0.001996,0.016446,0.012571,-0.000241,-0.00946
Slovenian:F038327,0.118376,0.133034,0.050911,0.038114,0.023389,0.013666,0.019271,-0.000231,-0.015135,-0.004738,0.00341,0.00045,0.009366,0.009083,0.001764,0.015248,0.005476,0,0.021243,0.006003,-0.014724,-0.003957,0.002588,0.005784,-0.002036
Slovenian:F038350,0.127482,0.141159,0.051288,0.032946,0.044316,0.009203,0.001645,0,-0.012067,-0.010752,-0.016726,0.001199,-0.008325,0.001101,-0.004343,0.006895,0.007953,-0.004561,-0.00264,0.004877,-0.003369,-0.009398,-0.001972,0.003494,-0.007305
Slovenian:F038376,0.127482,0.132019,0.058454,0.053295,0.039392,0.014502,-0.005405,0.004154,0.018203,-0.005103,0.002923,0.0003,0.000892,0.008257,-0.006515,0.000663,-0.001825,-0.001394,-0.001383,-0.004377,-0.009608,-0.007914,0.003328,-0.013978,-0.000359
Slovenian:F038390,0.095611,0.117801,0.063733,0.04522,0.025851,-0.001394,0.00188,0.001615,0.007772,0.000182,-0.006171,-0.001049,-0.00773,0.00289,-0.009636,0.013922,0.018906,-0.0019,-0.01257,0.009379,0.001373,-0.00371,0.007888,0.002048,0
Slovenian:F038394,0.129758,0.138112,0.058454,0.044251,0.035083,0.007809,0.00282,0.02123,0.005318,-0.002551,0.000812,-0.001798,0.002973,0.007707,-0.000271,-0.007027,-0.005215,-0.007728,0.005908,0.001876,0.001373,-0.002349,0.010106,0.011086,0.012693
Slovenian:F038408,0.134311,0.141159,0.05242,0.034884,0.041854,0.004462,-0.00141,0.001615,0.016975,-0.009112,-0.010555,-0.004946,0.003568,0.018717,-0.002443,-0.001856,0.005085,-0.003801,0.016089,-0.0005,0.006114,-0.001855,0.005053,-0.008073,-0.003233
Slovenian:F038433,0.137726,0.133034,0.061471,0.036499,0.041546,0.026774,0.00329,0.005077,0.012885,0.000547,-0.005196,-0.004796,-0.011001,0.015827,-0.0095,-0.023336,-0.005737,-0.006208,-0.002765,-0.00988,-0.013601,-0.008037,0.001602,-0.001446,-0.00958
West_Slovene,0.125205,0.133034,0.051666,0.035207,0 .034776,0.019243,0.011281,0.011538,0,-0.008565,-0.002598,-0.001199,0.001338,0.015138,-0.004614,-0.001326,0.004955,0.000887,0.002263,0.001376,-0.006364,-0.003339,0.005423,0.006748,-0.000359
Alp+West_Slovene,0.12862,0.132019,0.050911,0.03972 9,0.037238,0.009203,0.00141,0.005077,0.002659,-0.010023,-0.004384,-0.002398,0.006838,0.009634,-0.003936,0.004906,0.017732,0.001647,0.00176,0.0078 79,-0.00262,-0.005564,0.002958,-0.000361,-0.006107
East_Slovene,0.126344,0.138112,0.056945,0.040375,0 .03693,0.018128,0.00752,0.008769,0.004295,-0.014943,-0.000812,-0.006894,0.005649,0.018992,-0.0076,0.00358,0.005346,0.002027,-0.001383,-0.000875,0.000873,0.000124,0.007888,0.006386,0.005 987

Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia in the new study

Code:

Serb_Plaški,0.12862,0.135065,0.039975,0.013566,0.027697,-0.001952,0.00799,0.013384,-0.00225,-0.00164,-0.002273,-0.001199,-0.001189,0.01101,-0.018594,-0.004375,0.009779,0.006081,0.005028,-0.002001,-0.00262,0.000371,0.009983,0.001325,-0.003592
Serb_Banija,0.124067,0.138112,0.041483,0.010336,0.034776,-0.002231,0.0047,-0.006461,-0.001227,0.00328,0.003735,0.004946,-0.001487,0.008395,-0.016829,-0.005436,0.007302,0.004434,0.025894,-0.000625,-0.015473,-0.002968,0.005916,-0.00494,-0.007185
Serb_Kistanje,0.132035,0.147252,0.043746,0.031977,0.029236,0.007809,0.002115,0.005307,0.001227,0.000364,-0.005684,0.003747,0.00446,0.029451,-0.019815,0.002121,0.008736,0.000507,0.008045,-0.005378,-0.006988,-0.002597,0.003328,-0.001325,-0.001437
Serb_Kistanje,0.12862,0.129988,0.038466,0.021318,0.037853,0.002231,0.00188,0.004154,-0.002045,0.006196,0.006171,-0.000749,0,0.009083,-0.017779,0.001989,0.007041,-0.003547,0.003897,-0.005753,-0.009982,-0.008779,0.008134,0.007471,-0.000359
Serb_Banja_Luka,0.12862,0.145221,0.042992,0.027455,0.032621,0.008367,0.005405,0.007615,-0.005522,0.005285,0.000162,-0.003597,0.004608,0.014038,-0.02348,-0.00053,0.013299,0.003674,0.002137,0.00025,-0.009358,-0.001113,-0.002218,-0.001084,0.000838

Other

Code:

Croat_Bosnia,0.122929,0.1370965,0.041106,0.022933,0.0263125,0.006275,0.0038775,0.0089995,0.005113,-0.002369,-0.0014615,-0.009666,0.0091425,0.0214695,-0.013301,0.0001985,0.008866,0.0009505,0.0040225,0.002126,-0.0085475,-0.0001855,0.006532,0.005181,-0.002335
Croat_Dalmatia,0.132035,0.132019,0.055437,0.026809,0.036007,0.014223,0.012456,0.005538,-0.002045,-0.005285,-0.006171,0.001199,-0.000297,0.010872,-0.008822,0.012463,0.025034,0.001647,0.007793,0.002751,0.000125,-0.005688,0.002218,-0.009519,-0.000239
Serb_Bosnia,0.134311,0.135065,0.051288,0.02261,0.030159,0.006136,0.005875,0.010846,0.00225,0.000547,-0.001461,-0.003747,0.007879,0.01101,-0.014794,0.006232,0.010561,-0.00076,0.006159,0.005628,-0.005116,-0.005812,0.004437,0.00241,-0.001078
Serb_Croatia,0.127482,0.1365885,0.0418605,0.0163115,0.0312365,0.0076695,0.001175,0.003,-0.00225,-0.001822,-0.003329,-0.003372,0.0023785,0.0104595,-0.0186615,-0.0090825,-0.0028035,0.0020905,0.003331,-0.004565,-0.0068625,-0.0102635,0.005423,0.002952,-0.003712

[Mik]

I gave it a try:

Target: Mik
Distance: 1.7705% / 0.01770530
64.6 Slavic_medieval
35.4 Illyro-Roman

Target: Mik_Mom
Distance: 1.8938% / 0.01893774
57.8 Slavic_medieval
42.2 Illyro-Roman

Target: Mik_Dad
Distance: 2.7812% / 0.02781229
61.2 Slavic_medieval
38.8 Illyro-Roman

Target: Mik_Cousin
Distance: 1.3690% / 0.01369035
63.4 Slavic_medieval
36.4 Illyro-Roman
0.2 Asian

Are you perhaps willing to share your's family coords? They would serve my database well since you are entirely from one region. I could make a PCA. And also, are the coords genuine?

Sure, the coords are genuine, obtained from Illustrative DNA:

Mik,0.125205,0.138112,0.049403,0.031654,0.033545,0.005578,0.00705,0.004846,0.001227,-0.01057,0.003573,-0.003447,0.005352,0.018854,-0.00855,0.005171,0.008736,0.001774,0.008045,-0.00075,-0.007237,-0.004946,0.007641,-0.002289,0.004191
Mik_Mom,0.124067,0.144205,0.042992,0.025517,0.036622,0.008646,0.004465,0.007384,-0.001023,-0.002187,0.003248,-0.006894,0.009514,0.015689,-0.008822,-0.000398,0.00678,-0.000507,0.00993,-0.001626,-0.006863,-0.008408,0.006655,-0.001325,-0.003952
Mik_Dad,0.12862,0.139128,0.043369,0.031008,0.028928,0.009203,0.00329,0.006,-0.00409,-0.007836,-0.002761,-0.004346,0.007879,0.0139,-0.011265,0.014983,0.026338,-0.000127,0.00088,0.000875,-0.004492,-0.001113,0.006286,-0.004458,-0.003832
Mik_Cousin,0.127482,0.133034,0.050157,0.028747,0.03693,0.011435,0.003995,0.007154,0.00409,-0.00164,-0.003248,-0.002698,0.008325,0.014038,-0.019137,0.001061,0.011083,-0.00114,-0.00088,0.002251,-0.008111,0.001607,0.004683,-0.005302,-0.001796

[Leeloo]

Thank you both very much!

[Riverman]

Isn't the Germanic component a bit high for the North Western group? Looks as high as in some Slovenians and Hungarians. Do the Kajkavians have known German-Hungarian settlement? How many Kajkavian samples did you use?

It's the reality. Kajkavian Croats are more northern shifted than Slovenes and Hungarians on average and many cluster closest to academic average of Czechs from Prague.

Germanic ancestry in the region seems medieval since it is evenly spread in the rural population. There were some German Saxon miners in some towns, but far too little to impact autosomal genetics in such a way.

It is quite interesting since historiography did not record a major Germanic expansion in the area as far as I am aware. I used 7-8 samples with deeply rooted ancestry, which should be enough since they all have rather uniform scores and come from various locations. Only one sample is different to others, and that one is Kajkavian speaker from Gorski kotar which is region cut from main Kajkavian region in north Croatia and with complex settlement history. His score is more Slovene-like than Kajkavian like and it actually correlates with dialect spoken in his region that some lignuists classify as Slovene-proper influenced.

Well, thank you, but there is a contradiction. If its Medieval, but there were just a few Saxon miners with no big impact, what else could it have been? Must be Pre-Medieval.

I thought its particularly odd that other Croatians get zero Germanic, even though I know that some components can leap, like low admixture being sometimes overlooked by the algorithm.

Such a high number should be reflected in uniparentals too by the way. Is that the case?

Perhaps I should have clarified better. It should be from migration era, not from later Saxon arrivals. There were Langobards and Goths in the region, but I believed they just passed trough the area without significant settlement. Well, genetics say otherwise.

There is pretty sharp cut between Kajkavian and non Kajkavian speakers that I find rather surprising. There are some more transitional zones indeed, like southern part of central Croatia where all three major Croatian dialects once met (so modern štokavian speaking Croats from there can have kajkavian-like substrata, I saw some examples like that, on gedmatch though).

Never studied haplogroups of the region much tbh. I know they have notably more R1b than other Croatian regions, but I think most of it is of Celtic variety, if I am not mistaken. There is some I1 too but overall I can't say I noticed large presence of Germanic-related haplogroups. Ph2ter should know more, he is from the region.

Varaždin has 17% of R1b+I1. In Varaždin case these R1b and I1 should not be the usual Balkan I1 or Balkan R1b clades (but nobody made the proper research of these y-DNA clades yet).

Varaždin has high E-V13, I1 and R1b by comparison and relatively lower I2a. Would speak for a higher rate of Late Antiquity survival there.

[Bukva_]

Does anyone know from which study did Davidski take Croatian and Slovenian samples?

[Genetics189291]

My father and me, he is a great sample for Croats from Kordun, few villages next to each other back to 1700s, also I have minor ancestry from Hrvatsko Zagorje (Great great grandfather).

Code:

Kordun_Slunj_scaled,0.132035,0.131003,0.056945,0.036822,0.033545,0.021753,0.00517,0.00923,0.00409,-0.005103,-0.008444,-0.002997,0.004906,0.018992,-0.011943,-0.01432,-0.010561,-0.004434,0.003897,-0.012631,-0.005241,-0.003957,0.007272,-0.00241,-0.002155
Kordun_Slunj+Ogulin_scaled,0.134311,0.129988,0.058077,0.0323,0.03416,0.016733,0.008225,0.005307,0.002045,0,-0.012504,-0.001798,0.008771,0.016652,-0.012215,-0.011933,-0.01017,-0.001267,0.005279,-0.007253,-0.000749,0,0.00419,-0.005422,0.00012

Some other samples I found online

Code:

Croat_Kajkavian,0.134311,0.127957,0.060339,0.044574,0.034468,0.018128,0.004935,0.004384,0.001636,-0.008747,-0.003735,-0.001948,0.006244,0.015551,-0.0057,-0.008353,-0.006128,-0.00152,0.007668,0.002751,-0.002121,0,0.002095,-0.00012,-0.000958
Croat_Main,0.1271975,0.1370968,0.0439345,0.030039,0.031929,0.0098308,0.0071675,0.0072112,0.0013295,-0.0043738,-0.0014615,-0.0102282,0.0040138,0.0185792,-0.0115365,-0.0031822,0.0048242,-0.0018688,0.0093015,0.006128,-0.0092338,-0.0011748,0.0055462,-0.001205,-0.0000622
Croat_North,0.1289048,0.1277028,0.0581705,0.0453815,0.0376225,0.0175005,0.00564,0.0028268,0.0014828,-0.0096585,-0.0032478,-0.0034092,0.0052775,0.014932,-0.0044108,-0.003613,-0.0021515,-0.000285,0.0050592,-0.0014695,-0.0010295,0.0022568,0.0036975,0.0021085,-0.0000298

Simulated sample, his sim is very similar to my fathers

Code:

Croat_Slunj+Bosiljevo,0.136316,0.133618,0.062405,0.045421,0.039019,0.018082,0.008318,0.009734,-0.000734,-0.006985,-0.004557,-0.001306,0.002041,0.016441,-0.005299,-0.002582,0.002254,-0.000749,0.004543,0.000744,-0.000380,-0.004031,0.001272,0.000607,0.001184

Slovenian samples not included in Davidski average

Code:

Slovenian:F037395,0.125205,0.136081,0.062979,0.04199,0.018157,0.017012,-0.009635,0.003461,-0.003068,-0.012028,-0.00065,-0.016785,0.015312,0.009909,0.00285,0.006762,-0.014081,0.006714,0.006285,-0.00075,-0.028575,0.00272,0.015899,-0.004458,0.001437
Slovenian:F037870,0.136588,0.133034,0.067882,0.041344,0.02462,0.016176,0.00235,0.000923,-0.003886,0.002187,-0.005034,-0.007044,-0.006838,-0.001789,-0.008143,0.000398,0.031814,-0.007728,0.01345,0.002376,-0.012228,-0.008285,-0.003081,-0.015424,-0.006586
Slovenian:F037872,0.134311,0.137096,0.062225,0.050065,0.024004,0.031515,0.014101,-0.003461,0.00634,-0.01385,-0.012991,0.002398,0.000892,0.012799,0.006243,0.007823,0.015516,0.011275,0.011313,-0.002876,0.002371,-0.008532,-0.006162,-0.004097,0.017004
Slovenian:F037892,0.126344,0.127957,0.059585,0.037791,0.025543,0.031794,0.012926,0.003,-0.008181,-0.00492,-0.00341,-0.003147,0.005203,0.010597,-0.006379,-0.016839,0.012256,0.000253,0.006788,0.002001,-0.005989,-0.017806,0.000739,-0.012893,0.002275
Slovenian:F037911,0.135449,0.123895,0.04978,0.03876,0.03416,0.013387,0.010575,0.014538,0.00225,-0.001458,0.008444,0,0.002081,0.005505,-0.001086,-0.003978,0.013169,-0.007095,0.004399,-0.004502,0,-0.001484,0.005176,-0.003615,-0.006826
Slovenian:F037921,0.135449,0.131003,0.056568,0.046189,0.028313,0.015618,0.022091,0.010846,0.002863,0.011299,0.016726,-0.002698,0.018731,0.018029,-0.011401,0.015646,0.014994,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.007003,-0.003244,-0.001237,-0.011092,0.013737,-0.007424
Slovenian:F037924,0.125205,0.138112,0.046763,0.02584,0.037545,0.005578,0.004935,0.014538,0.002454,0.000911,0.005846,0.005245,-0.002676,0.014863,-0.00475,0.01127,-0.013169,-0.002787,0.01986,-0.013381,-0.002246,-0.011252,0.000863,-0.009881,-0.005628
Slovenian:F037925,0.126344,0.136081,0.051666,0.037468,0.032006,0.006693,-0.006815,0.013384,0.00225,-0.012757,-0.006658,-0.004346,0.000149,0.015689,-0.010722,-0.006895,0.013038,-0.005828,0.005656,-0.005378,-0.005116,-0.002226,0.015776,0.007832,-0.008742
Slovenian:F037926,0.132035,0.138112,0.026776,0.02907,0.029852,0.008088,0.005875,0.009461,0.010635,0.015855,-0.016726,0.003747,0.007879,0.021744,-0.012758,-0.01432,-0.01369,0.002787,0.005782,0.008754,-0.015098,-0.015086,0.009244,0.011447,-0.000838
Slovenian:F038033,0.127482,0.132019,0.055814,0.039406,0.044008,0.019522,0.00376,0.014999,0.002454,-0.000364,-0.003735,-0.004646,0.017096,0.022295,-0.005293,0.00716,0.021383,-0.004687,0.004777,-0.005378,-0.003119,0.009769,-0.001232,0.011327,0.000239
Slovenian:F038074,0.133173,0.136081,0.052043,0.043605,0.035083,0.013666,0.007755,0.00923,-0.004909,-0.01385,-0.004709,-0.007194,0.005054,0.01679,0.006922,0.007955,0.018384,0.00114,0.015209,0.006378,-0.006489,0.000618,0.006409,0.011929,0.005508
Slovenian:F038083,0.143417,0.136081,0.046009,0.039083,0.045547,0.014223,0.00376,0.008769,0.005522,-0.003098,0.000325,0.007044,0.002081,0.022432,-0.004886,0.005569,-0.014473,0.00152,0.00088,0.001876,-0.013227,-0.001237,-0.00493,0.006025,0.006586
Slovenian:F038210,0.122929,0.139128,0.050157,0.023902,0.032314,0.011992,0.00141,0.002077,-0.010431,0.003098,-0.00747,-0.000599,0.011001,0.015964,-0.0095,0.00769,0.006128,-0.015076,0.008547,-0.002626,-0.003119,0.002968,0.009244,0.005784,-0.003952
Slovenian:F038211,0.134311,0.126941,0.053928,0.046189,0.024928,0.019522,0.005405,0.008538,0.015953,-0.006378,-0.00065,-0.003597,0.011893,0.017203,-0.000407,-0.012596,-0.001565,0.005194,-0.004399,-0.003377,-0.006114,0.01014,-0.003574,-0.004458,-0.004431
Slovenian:F038235,0.127482,0.118817,0.059208,0.045866,0.041546,0.017849,0.007285,-0.000462,0.002659,-0.002551,-0.003248,-0.003897,0.007879,0.002202,-0.014115,0.010607,0.018906,0.003674,-0.003017,0.016633,0.002496,0.006306,0.001849,0.013857,0.001437
Slovenian:F038247,0.12862,0.142174,0.060339,0.033915,0.028313,0.007809,0.007285,0.005307,-0.011658,-0.004556,-0.000974,-0.00015,-0.001784,-0.001239,-0.001357,0.006099,0.002347,-0.002407,-0.000628,0.016133,-0.00574,0.007172,-0.005176,-0.016629,0.000958
Slovenian:F038257,0.117238,0.136081,0.059962,0.040375,0.025235,0.026495,0.000705,0.00923,-0.012271,-0.002734,-0.002273,-0.007044,0.008771,-0.004817,-0.007329,-0.006232,-0.012778,-0.004307,0.005279,0.001251,0,-0.001237,-0.00419,-0.000723,-0.006706
Slovenian:F038306,0.134311,0.132019,0.067882,0.053618,0.032929,0.017012,0.012691,0.003231,-0.002045,-0.012028,-0.004384,-0.002997,0.013677,0.015551,-0.013165,-0.011403,-0.014342,0.009502,-0.000754,0.014632,0.001996,0.016446,0.012571,-0.000241,-0.00946
Slovenian:F038327,0.118376,0.133034,0.050911,0.038114,0.023389,0.013666,0.019271,-0.000231,-0.015135,-0.004738,0.00341,0.00045,0.009366,0.009083,0.001764,0.015248,0.005476,0,0.021243,0.006003,-0.014724,-0.003957,0.002588,0.005784,-0.002036
Slovenian:F038350,0.127482,0.141159,0.051288,0.032946,0.044316,0.009203,0.001645,0,-0.012067,-0.010752,-0.016726,0.001199,-0.008325,0.001101,-0.004343,0.006895,0.007953,-0.004561,-0.00264,0.004877,-0.003369,-0.009398,-0.001972,0.003494,-0.007305
Slovenian:F038376,0.127482,0.132019,0.058454,0.053295,0.039392,0.014502,-0.005405,0.004154,0.018203,-0.005103,0.002923,0.0003,0.000892,0.008257,-0.006515,0.000663,-0.001825,-0.001394,-0.001383,-0.004377,-0.009608,-0.007914,0.003328,-0.013978,-0.000359
Slovenian:F038390,0.095611,0.117801,0.063733,0.04522,0.025851,-0.001394,0.00188,0.001615,0.007772,0.000182,-0.006171,-0.001049,-0.00773,0.00289,-0.009636,0.013922,0.018906,-0.0019,-0.01257,0.009379,0.001373,-0.00371,0.007888,0.002048,0
Slovenian:F038394,0.129758,0.138112,0.058454,0.044251,0.035083,0.007809,0.00282,0.02123,0.005318,-0.002551,0.000812,-0.001798,0.002973,0.007707,-0.000271,-0.007027,-0.005215,-0.007728,0.005908,0.001876,0.001373,-0.002349,0.010106,0.011086,0.012693
Slovenian:F038408,0.134311,0.141159,0.05242,0.034884,0.041854,0.004462,-0.00141,0.001615,0.016975,-0.009112,-0.010555,-0.004946,0.003568,0.018717,-0.002443,-0.001856,0.005085,-0.003801,0.016089,-0.0005,0.006114,-0.001855,0.005053,-0.008073,-0.003233
Slovenian:F038433,0.137726,0.133034,0.061471,0.036499,0.041546,0.026774,0.00329,0.005077,0.012885,0.000547,-0.005196,-0.004796,-0.011001,0.015827,-0.0095,-0.023336,-0.005737,-0.006208,-0.002765,-0.00988,-0.013601,-0.008037,0.001602,-0.001446,-0.00958
West_Slovene,0.125205,0.133034,0.051666,0.035207,0 .034776,0.019243,0.011281,0.011538,0,-0.008565,-0.002598,-0.001199,0.001338,0.015138,-0.004614,-0.001326,0.004955,0.000887,0.002263,0.001376,-0.006364,-0.003339,0.005423,0.006748,-0.000359
Alp+West_Slovene,0.12862,0.132019,0.050911,0.03972 9,0.037238,0.009203,0.00141,0.005077,0.002659,-0.010023,-0.004384,-0.002398,0.006838,0.009634,-0.003936,0.004906,0.017732,0.001647,0.00176,0.0078 79,-0.00262,-0.005564,0.002958,-0.000361,-0.006107
East_Slovene,0.126344,0.138112,0.056945,0.040375,0 .03693,0.018128,0.00752,0.008769,0.004295,-0.014943,-0.000812,-0.006894,0.005649,0.018992,-0.0076,0.00358,0.005346,0.002027,-0.001383,-0.000875,0.000873,0.000124,0.007888,0.006386,0.005 987

Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia in the new study

Code:

Serb_Plaški,0.12862,0.135065,0.039975,0.013566,0.027697,-0.001952,0.00799,0.013384,-0.00225,-0.00164,-0.002273,-0.001199,-0.001189,0.01101,-0.018594,-0.004375,0.009779,0.006081,0.005028,-0.002001,-0.00262,0.000371,0.009983,0.001325,-0.003592
Serb_Banija,0.124067,0.138112,0.041483,0.010336,0.034776,-0.002231,0.0047,-0.006461,-0.001227,0.00328,0.003735,0.004946,-0.001487,0.008395,-0.016829,-0.005436,0.007302,0.004434,0.025894,-0.000625,-0.015473,-0.002968,0.005916,-0.00494,-0.007185
Serb_Kistanje,0.132035,0.147252,0.043746,0.031977,0.029236,0.007809,0.002115,0.005307,0.001227,0.000364,-0.005684,0.003747,0.00446,0.029451,-0.019815,0.002121,0.008736,0.000507,0.008045,-0.005378,-0.006988,-0.002597,0.003328,-0.001325,-0.001437
Serb_Kistanje,0.12862,0.129988,0.038466,0.021318,0.037853,0.002231,0.00188,0.004154,-0.002045,0.006196,0.006171,-0.000749,0,0.009083,-0.017779,0.001989,0.007041,-0.003547,0.003897,-0.005753,-0.009982,-0.008779,0.008134,0.007471,-0.000359
Serb_Banja_Luka,0.12862,0.145221,0.042992,0.027455,0.032621,0.008367,0.005405,0.007615,-0.005522,0.005285,0.000162,-0.003597,0.004608,0.014038,-0.02348,-0.00053,0.013299,0.003674,0.002137,0.00025,-0.009358,-0.001113,-0.002218,-0.001084,0.000838

Other

Code:

Croat_Bosnia,0.122929,0.1370965,0.041106,0.022933,0.0263125,0.006275,0.0038775,0.0089995,0.005113,-0.002369,-0.0014615,-0.009666,0.0091425,0.0214695,-0.013301,0.0001985,0.008866,0.0009505,0.0040225,0.002126,-0.0085475,-0.0001855,0.006532,0.005181,-0.002335
Croat_Dalmatia,0.132035,0.132019,0.055437,0.026809,0.036007,0.014223,0.012456,0.005538,-0.002045,-0.005285,-0.006171,0.001199,-0.000297,0.010872,-0.008822,0.012463,0.025034,0.001647,0.007793,0.002751,0.000125,-0.005688,0.002218,-0.009519,-0.000239
Serb_Bosnia,0.134311,0.135065,0.051288,0.02261,0.030159,0.006136,0.005875,0.010846,0.00225,0.000547,-0.001461,-0.003747,0.007879,0.01101,-0.014794,0.006232,0.010561,-0.00076,0.006159,0.005628,-0.005116,-0.005812,0.004437,0.00241,-0.001078
Serb_Croatia,0.127482,0.1365885,0.0418605,0.0163115,0.0312365,0.0076695,0.001175,0.003,-0.00225,-0.001822,-0.003329,-0.003372,0.0023785,0.0104595,-0.0186615,-0.0090825,-0.0028035,0.0020905,0.003331,-0.004565,-0.0068625,-0.0102635,0.005423,0.002952,-0.003712

Thanks was looking for tha Slovenian samples for my wife


Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.1160% / 0.01115952
63.0 Berber_MAR_ERR
13.4 Berber_MAR_TIZ
8.0 Slovenian
5.4 Mozabite
3.2 Fulani
2.8 Gambian
2.4 Spanish_Asturias
1.2 Mbuti
0.4 Koinanbe
0.2 Sardinian

Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.3203% / 0.01320348 | R5P
69.4 Berber_MAR_ERR
16.0 Mozabite
8.4 Slovenian
4.8 Gambian
1.4 Hadza

Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.3409% / 0.01340862 | R4P
72.8 Berber_MAR_ERR
12.8 Mozabite
8.6 Slovenian
5.8 Gambian

Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.3418% / 0.01341846 | R3P
85.4 Berber_MAR_ERR
9.2 Slovenian
5.4 Gambian

[elflock]

I would heavily disregard the "Illyro" as a prefix before the Roman because of the archaeogenetic contexts of these CE samples. Given the uniparental distribution of Croats it is rather evident that BA-IA Illyrian Y-DNA and mtDNA are very rare. Imperial Roman era ancestry, some southeast Urnfield, perhaps also some Daco-Thracian-like source pop would fit the overall picture much better.

Also, on a side note "Balkan_IA" or "Old Balkan" as toponyms are extremely generic considering the diverse genetic makeup of the Paleo-Balkans, as in there is not some sort of homogenous bunch.

No, I disagree. Illyro-Roman is used historiographic term to label Romanized population of Dalmatia and Panonnia. I used both native Balkan like samples (from Croatia only) and Roman_Anatolian like samples (also from Croatia only). Our pre-Slavic part is certainly not fitting to Imperial Roman.

Urnfield sound irrelevant to describe pre-Slavic late antiquity/early medieval population of Croatia, as does Daco-Thracian.

Label Illyro-Roman is generic and describes exatly what it states - Romanized native population. This average is most similar to Tuscans, and it makes sense since Illyrians from Croatia were North Italian like and Anatolian Romans from same area were much more southern, thus a Romanized native mix will come out central-Italian like.

That's not really a counterargument. You're again using a pretty generic term that was used in the Serbian article, you keep referencing, which is "Balkan IA". This will ultimately lead to falsehoods and erroneous conclusions.

The BA-IA Illyrian related archaeogenetic landscape in what is today Croatia is very well mapped out. The CE era samples of that study do not represent an unbroken continuation of BA-IA Illyrian samples of the same region, neither uniparentally nor autosomally.

Modern Croats, again, totally lack Illyrian Y-DNA and mtDNA, some maximum 3% here and there is incredibly rare. E1b-V13 for instance is the most common Paleo-Balkan lineage in Croats but it was absolutely irrelevant during pre-Roman times in the area. Imperial Era Middleastern uniparentals are combined also much more present.

There was not a strict in situ assimilation and non-Slavic components were also picked up along the way.

[Genetics189291]

My father and me, he is a great sample for Croats from Kordun, few villages next to each other back to 1700s, also I have minor ancestry from Hrvatsko Zagorje (Great great grandfather).

Code:

Kordun_Slunj_scaled,0.132035,0.131003,0.056945,0.036822,0.033545,0.021753,0.00517,0.00923,0.00409,-0.005103,-0.008444,-0.002997,0.004906,0.018992,-0.011943,-0.01432,-0.010561,-0.004434,0.003897,-0.012631,-0.005241,-0.003957,0.007272,-0.00241,-0.002155
Kordun_Slunj+Ogulin_scaled,0.134311,0.129988,0.058077,0.0323,0.03416,0.016733,0.008225,0.005307,0.002045,0,-0.012504,-0.001798,0.008771,0.016652,-0.012215,-0.011933,-0.01017,-0.001267,0.005279,-0.007253,-0.000749,0,0.00419,-0.005422,0.00012

Some other samples I found online

Code:

Croat_Kajkavian,0.134311,0.127957,0.060339,0.044574,0.034468,0.018128,0.004935,0.004384,0.001636,-0.008747,-0.003735,-0.001948,0.006244,0.015551,-0.0057,-0.008353,-0.006128,-0.00152,0.007668,0.002751,-0.002121,0,0.002095,-0.00012,-0.000958
Croat_Main,0.1271975,0.1370968,0.0439345,0.030039,0.031929,0.0098308,0.0071675,0.0072112,0.0013295,-0.0043738,-0.0014615,-0.0102282,0.0040138,0.0185792,-0.0115365,-0.0031822,0.0048242,-0.0018688,0.0093015,0.006128,-0.0092338,-0.0011748,0.0055462,-0.001205,-0.0000622
Croat_North,0.1289048,0.1277028,0.0581705,0.0453815,0.0376225,0.0175005,0.00564,0.0028268,0.0014828,-0.0096585,-0.0032478,-0.0034092,0.0052775,0.014932,-0.0044108,-0.003613,-0.0021515,-0.000285,0.0050592,-0.0014695,-0.0010295,0.0022568,0.0036975,0.0021085,-0.0000298

Simulated sample, his sim is very similar to my fathers

Code:

Croat_Slunj+Bosiljevo,0.136316,0.133618,0.062405,0.045421,0.039019,0.018082,0.008318,0.009734,-0.000734,-0.006985,-0.004557,-0.001306,0.002041,0.016441,-0.005299,-0.002582,0.002254,-0.000749,0.004543,0.000744,-0.000380,-0.004031,0.001272,0.000607,0.001184

Slovenian samples not included in Davidski average

Code:

Slovenian:F037395,0.125205,0.136081,0.062979,0.04199,0.018157,0.017012,-0.009635,0.003461,-0.003068,-0.012028,-0.00065,-0.016785,0.015312,0.009909,0.00285,0.006762,-0.014081,0.006714,0.006285,-0.00075,-0.028575,0.00272,0.015899,-0.004458,0.001437
Slovenian:F037870,0.136588,0.133034,0.067882,0.041344,0.02462,0.016176,0.00235,0.000923,-0.003886,0.002187,-0.005034,-0.007044,-0.006838,-0.001789,-0.008143,0.000398,0.031814,-0.007728,0.01345,0.002376,-0.012228,-0.008285,-0.003081,-0.015424,-0.006586
Slovenian:F037872,0.134311,0.137096,0.062225,0.050065,0.024004,0.031515,0.014101,-0.003461,0.00634,-0.01385,-0.012991,0.002398,0.000892,0.012799,0.006243,0.007823,0.015516,0.011275,0.011313,-0.002876,0.002371,-0.008532,-0.006162,-0.004097,0.017004
Slovenian:F037892,0.126344,0.127957,0.059585,0.037791,0.025543,0.031794,0.012926,0.003,-0.008181,-0.00492,-0.00341,-0.003147,0.005203,0.010597,-0.006379,-0.016839,0.012256,0.000253,0.006788,0.002001,-0.005989,-0.017806,0.000739,-0.012893,0.002275
Slovenian:F037911,0.135449,0.123895,0.04978,0.03876,0.03416,0.013387,0.010575,0.014538,0.00225,-0.001458,0.008444,0,0.002081,0.005505,-0.001086,-0.003978,0.013169,-0.007095,0.004399,-0.004502,0,-0.001484,0.005176,-0.003615,-0.006826
Slovenian:F037921,0.135449,0.131003,0.056568,0.046189,0.028313,0.015618,0.022091,0.010846,0.002863,0.011299,0.016726,-0.002698,0.018731,0.018029,-0.011401,0.015646,0.014994,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.007003,-0.003244,-0.001237,-0.011092,0.013737,-0.007424
Slovenian:F037924,0.125205,0.138112,0.046763,0.02584,0.037545,0.005578,0.004935,0.014538,0.002454,0.000911,0.005846,0.005245,-0.002676,0.014863,-0.00475,0.01127,-0.013169,-0.002787,0.01986,-0.013381,-0.002246,-0.011252,0.000863,-0.009881,-0.005628
Slovenian:F037925,0.126344,0.136081,0.051666,0.037468,0.032006,0.006693,-0.006815,0.013384,0.00225,-0.012757,-0.006658,-0.004346,0.000149,0.015689,-0.010722,-0.006895,0.013038,-0.005828,0.005656,-0.005378,-0.005116,-0.002226,0.015776,0.007832,-0.008742
Slovenian:F037926,0.132035,0.138112,0.026776,0.02907,0.029852,0.008088,0.005875,0.009461,0.010635,0.015855,-0.016726,0.003747,0.007879,0.021744,-0.012758,-0.01432,-0.01369,0.002787,0.005782,0.008754,-0.015098,-0.015086,0.009244,0.011447,-0.000838
Slovenian:F038033,0.127482,0.132019,0.055814,0.039406,0.044008,0.019522,0.00376,0.014999,0.002454,-0.000364,-0.003735,-0.004646,0.017096,0.022295,-0.005293,0.00716,0.021383,-0.004687,0.004777,-0.005378,-0.003119,0.009769,-0.001232,0.011327,0.000239
Slovenian:F038074,0.133173,0.136081,0.052043,0.043605,0.035083,0.013666,0.007755,0.00923,-0.004909,-0.01385,-0.004709,-0.007194,0.005054,0.01679,0.006922,0.007955,0.018384,0.00114,0.015209,0.006378,-0.006489,0.000618,0.006409,0.011929,0.005508
Slovenian:F038083,0.143417,0.136081,0.046009,0.039083,0.045547,0.014223,0.00376,0.008769,0.005522,-0.003098,0.000325,0.007044,0.002081,0.022432,-0.004886,0.005569,-0.014473,0.00152,0.00088,0.001876,-0.013227,-0.001237,-0.00493,0.006025,0.006586
Slovenian:F038210,0.122929,0.139128,0.050157,0.023902,0.032314,0.011992,0.00141,0.002077,-0.010431,0.003098,-0.00747,-0.000599,0.011001,0.015964,-0.0095,0.00769,0.006128,-0.015076,0.008547,-0.002626,-0.003119,0.002968,0.009244,0.005784,-0.003952
Slovenian:F038211,0.134311,0.126941,0.053928,0.046189,0.024928,0.019522,0.005405,0.008538,0.015953,-0.006378,-0.00065,-0.003597,0.011893,0.017203,-0.000407,-0.012596,-0.001565,0.005194,-0.004399,-0.003377,-0.006114,0.01014,-0.003574,-0.004458,-0.004431
Slovenian:F038235,0.127482,0.118817,0.059208,0.045866,0.041546,0.017849,0.007285,-0.000462,0.002659,-0.002551,-0.003248,-0.003897,0.007879,0.002202,-0.014115,0.010607,0.018906,0.003674,-0.003017,0.016633,0.002496,0.006306,0.001849,0.013857,0.001437
Slovenian:F038247,0.12862,0.142174,0.060339,0.033915,0.028313,0.007809,0.007285,0.005307,-0.011658,-0.004556,-0.000974,-0.00015,-0.001784,-0.001239,-0.001357,0.006099,0.002347,-0.002407,-0.000628,0.016133,-0.00574,0.007172,-0.005176,-0.016629,0.000958
Slovenian:F038257,0.117238,0.136081,0.059962,0.040375,0.025235,0.026495,0.000705,0.00923,-0.012271,-0.002734,-0.002273,-0.007044,0.008771,-0.004817,-0.007329,-0.006232,-0.012778,-0.004307,0.005279,0.001251,0,-0.001237,-0.00419,-0.000723,-0.006706
Slovenian:F038306,0.134311,0.132019,0.067882,0.053618,0.032929,0.017012,0.012691,0.003231,-0.002045,-0.012028,-0.004384,-0.002997,0.013677,0.015551,-0.013165,-0.011403,-0.014342,0.009502,-0.000754,0.014632,0.001996,0.016446,0.012571,-0.000241,-0.00946
Slovenian:F038327,0.118376,0.133034,0.050911,0.038114,0.023389,0.013666,0.019271,-0.000231,-0.015135,-0.004738,0.00341,0.00045,0.009366,0.009083,0.001764,0.015248,0.005476,0,0.021243,0.006003,-0.014724,-0.003957,0.002588,0.005784,-0.002036
Slovenian:F038350,0.127482,0.141159,0.051288,0.032946,0.044316,0.009203,0.001645,0,-0.012067,-0.010752,-0.016726,0.001199,-0.008325,0.001101,-0.004343,0.006895,0.007953,-0.004561,-0.00264,0.004877,-0.003369,-0.009398,-0.001972,0.003494,-0.007305
Slovenian:F038376,0.127482,0.132019,0.058454,0.053295,0.039392,0.014502,-0.005405,0.004154,0.018203,-0.005103,0.002923,0.0003,0.000892,0.008257,-0.006515,0.000663,-0.001825,-0.001394,-0.001383,-0.004377,-0.009608,-0.007914,0.003328,-0.013978,-0.000359
Slovenian:F038390,0.095611,0.117801,0.063733,0.04522,0.025851,-0.001394,0.00188,0.001615,0.007772,0.000182,-0.006171,-0.001049,-0.00773,0.00289,-0.009636,0.013922,0.018906,-0.0019,-0.01257,0.009379,0.001373,-0.00371,0.007888,0.002048,0
Slovenian:F038394,0.129758,0.138112,0.058454,0.044251,0.035083,0.007809,0.00282,0.02123,0.005318,-0.002551,0.000812,-0.001798,0.002973,0.007707,-0.000271,-0.007027,-0.005215,-0.007728,0.005908,0.001876,0.001373,-0.002349,0.010106,0.011086,0.012693
Slovenian:F038408,0.134311,0.141159,0.05242,0.034884,0.041854,0.004462,-0.00141,0.001615,0.016975,-0.009112,-0.010555,-0.004946,0.003568,0.018717,-0.002443,-0.001856,0.005085,-0.003801,0.016089,-0.0005,0.006114,-0.001855,0.005053,-0.008073,-0.003233
Slovenian:F038433,0.137726,0.133034,0.061471,0.036499,0.041546,0.026774,0.00329,0.005077,0.012885,0.000547,-0.005196,-0.004796,-0.011001,0.015827,-0.0095,-0.023336,-0.005737,-0.006208,-0.002765,-0.00988,-0.013601,-0.008037,0.001602,-0.001446,-0.00958
West_Slovene,0.125205,0.133034,0.051666,0.035207,0 .034776,0.019243,0.011281,0.011538,0,-0.008565,-0.002598,-0.001199,0.001338,0.015138,-0.004614,-0.001326,0.004955,0.000887,0.002263,0.001376,-0.006364,-0.003339,0.005423,0.006748,-0.000359
Alp+West_Slovene,0.12862,0.132019,0.050911,0.03972 9,0.037238,0.009203,0.00141,0.005077,0.002659,-0.010023,-0.004384,-0.002398,0.006838,0.009634,-0.003936,0.004906,0.017732,0.001647,0.00176,0.0078 79,-0.00262,-0.005564,0.002958,-0.000361,-0.006107
East_Slovene,0.126344,0.138112,0.056945,0.040375,0 .03693,0.018128,0.00752,0.008769,0.004295,-0.014943,-0.000812,-0.006894,0.005649,0.018992,-0.0076,0.00358,0.005346,0.002027,-0.001383,-0.000875,0.000873,0.000124,0.007888,0.006386,0.005 987

Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia in the new study

Code:

Serb_Plaški,0.12862,0.135065,0.039975,0.013566,0.027697,-0.001952,0.00799,0.013384,-0.00225,-0.00164,-0.002273,-0.001199,-0.001189,0.01101,-0.018594,-0.004375,0.009779,0.006081,0.005028,-0.002001,-0.00262,0.000371,0.009983,0.001325,-0.003592
Serb_Banija,0.124067,0.138112,0.041483,0.010336,0.034776,-0.002231,0.0047,-0.006461,-0.001227,0.00328,0.003735,0.004946,-0.001487,0.008395,-0.016829,-0.005436,0.007302,0.004434,0.025894,-0.000625,-0.015473,-0.002968,0.005916,-0.00494,-0.007185
Serb_Kistanje,0.132035,0.147252,0.043746,0.031977,0.029236,0.007809,0.002115,0.005307,0.001227,0.000364,-0.005684,0.003747,0.00446,0.029451,-0.019815,0.002121,0.008736,0.000507,0.008045,-0.005378,-0.006988,-0.002597,0.003328,-0.001325,-0.001437
Serb_Kistanje,0.12862,0.129988,0.038466,0.021318,0.037853,0.002231,0.00188,0.004154,-0.002045,0.006196,0.006171,-0.000749,0,0.009083,-0.017779,0.001989,0.007041,-0.003547,0.003897,-0.005753,-0.009982,-0.008779,0.008134,0.007471,-0.000359
Serb_Banja_Luka,0.12862,0.145221,0.042992,0.027455,0.032621,0.008367,0.005405,0.007615,-0.005522,0.005285,0.000162,-0.003597,0.004608,0.014038,-0.02348,-0.00053,0.013299,0.003674,0.002137,0.00025,-0.009358,-0.001113,-0.002218,-0.001084,0.000838

Other

Code:

Croat_Bosnia,0.122929,0.1370965,0.041106,0.022933,0.0263125,0.006275,0.0038775,0.0089995,0.005113,-0.002369,-0.0014615,-0.009666,0.0091425,0.0214695,-0.013301,0.0001985,0.008866,0.0009505,0.0040225,0.002126,-0.0085475,-0.0001855,0.006532,0.005181,-0.002335
Croat_Dalmatia,0.132035,0.132019,0.055437,0.026809,0.036007,0.014223,0.012456,0.005538,-0.002045,-0.005285,-0.006171,0.001199,-0.000297,0.010872,-0.008822,0.012463,0.025034,0.001647,0.007793,0.002751,0.000125,-0.005688,0.002218,-0.009519,-0.000239
Serb_Bosnia,0.134311,0.135065,0.051288,0.02261,0.030159,0.006136,0.005875,0.010846,0.00225,0.000547,-0.001461,-0.003747,0.007879,0.01101,-0.014794,0.006232,0.010561,-0.00076,0.006159,0.005628,-0.005116,-0.005812,0.004437,0.00241,-0.001078
Serb_Croatia,0.127482,0.1365885,0.0418605,0.0163115,0.0312365,0.0076695,0.001175,0.003,-0.00225,-0.001822,-0.003329,-0.003372,0.0023785,0.0104595,-0.0186615,-0.0090825,-0.0028035,0.0020905,0.003331,-0.004565,-0.0068625,-0.0102635,0.005423,0.002952,-0.003712

Thanks was looking for tha Slovenian samples for my wife


Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.1160% / 0.01115952
63.0 Berber_MAR_ERR
13.4 Berber_MAR_TIZ
8.0 Slovenian
5.4 Mozabite
3.2 Fulani
2.8 Gambian
2.4 Spanish_Asturias
1.2 Mbuti
0.4 Koinanbe
0.2 Sardinian

Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.3203% / 0.01320348 | R5P
69.4 Berber_MAR_ERR
16.0 Mozabite
8.4 Slovenian
4.8 Gambian
1.4 Hadza

Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.3409% / 0.01340862 | R4P
72.8 Berber_MAR_ERR
12.8 Mozabite
8.6 Slovenian
5.8 Gambian

Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.3418% / 0.01341846 | R3P
85.4 Berber_MAR_ERR
9.2 Slovenian
5.4 Gambian

Without Slovenian and more NA references



Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.2764% / 0.01276431 | R5P
36.8 MAR_Ait_ATTA
25.8 MAR_Central_Atlas
18.6 MAR_Huwara
9.8 Serb_Banija
9.0 Cameroon_Bakoko

Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.3002% / 0.01300237 | R4P
57.2 MAR_Ait_ATTA
23.2 MAR_Huwara
11.4 Serb_Banija
8.2 Cameroon_Bakoko

Target: wife_scaled
Distance: 1.4200% / 0.01419982 | R3P
85.8 Berber_MAR_ERR
9.0 Kordun_Slunj_scaled
5.2 Gambian