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Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384
#1
This is a continuation of my "Help me solve a family mystery thread" from anthrogenica.com started back in 2014:

Summary: After 44 years of personal research and 9 years of genetic testing, I learned the identity of my patrilineal great great grandfather.  On Oct 8th 2021, a FTDNA 111 marker test result helped identify him as Wilfred Charles Atkins (1866-1897).  This line goes back 2 more generations to a William Atkins b. 1812 in Wicklow, Ireland (my current patrilineal brick wall).  His son Charles (my great great great grandfather) was born in Dublin, Ireland in 1838.  In 1841 and 1851, William's occupation was listed as railroad police constable.  In 1861 his occupation is railway ticket collector.  I have no information about William or Charles prior to 1841 in Ireland, but William's children were baptized in an Anglican church in London, in the 1840s, so I'm assuming he was working class Anglo-Irish.

While there were at least 3 Anglo-Irish Atkins lines in Cork, Ireland, none of their descendants are members of the ADKINS/ATKINS FTDNA Project.

Because police constable was considered a working class occupation, and the above Anglo-Irish Atkins lines were landed gentry, I've doubted my line descends from one of these lines.  However, I recently came across this article, which may mean I need to reconsider the possibility.

alburyhistory.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Heyward-Atkins.pdf


Quote:Heyward St Leger Atkins (1812-1890) was born in County Cork, Ireland, and died at St Helier, Jersey.

He spent some 28 years in Australia, and was Albury’s first resident police magistrate from 1853 to

1860...Atkins came from two Anglo-Irish Protestant families of landed gentry, the Atkins of Waterpark,

near Cork, and the St Legers. Their estates were in the hands of richer relatives when Atkins left

Ireland for Australia about 1832.

Besides sharing a surname and an occupation in police work, both Heyward Atkins and William Atkins were born in Ireland in 1812.  Heyward left Ireland for Australia in 1832, and William left for England sometime between 1838 and 1841.

I know a police magistrate is more of a mid level position, while my William Atkins had more pedestrian jobs, but Australia was probably less class conscious than Victorian England.

To eliminate this possibility, I will just to find some patrilineal descendants of these Anglo-Irish Atkins lines that would be willing to do dna testing to see if there is a match.


There are presently 2 FGC2384 subclades:
FGC12390 (known TMRCA, 1838 AD).  Oldest known ancestor, William Atkins, born 1812, Wicklow, Ireland.
FGC47883 (estimated TMRCA ~1606 AD). Oldest known ancestor, William Adamthwaite, m. 1769 in Brough, Westmorland, Joseph Guess b 1790, Orange, Co., NC.

Their TMRCA is estimated to be 1286 AD...most likely in Britain...possibly Northern England or southern Scotland.

[Image: cAbhm37.png]

A comparison of different dating methodologies from FTDNA and Iain McDonald.

On the left side is the Age estimates for the Guess-Adamthwaite FGC12384>FGC47883 TMRCA and on the right the age estimates for the FGC12384 Guess-Adamthwaite/Mitchell-Atkins TMRCA.

The Mitchell-Atkins FGC12384>FGC12390 line has a known TMRCA of 1838 AD.


Iain's hybrid method uses both STR and SNP inputs as well as genealogical info when available.

I place more confidence in his dates than in FTDNA's SNP method.

As you can see on the right, Iain's best guess date for the FGC12384 TMRCA  1286 CE, is in between FTDNA's STR age estimates of 1250 and 1350 CE.

The FTDNA STR age estimates are ~300 years later than their SNP age estimates.
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Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
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#2
Photo 
Quote:Summary: After 44 years of personal research and 9 years of genetic testing, I learned the identity of my patrilineal great great grandfather.  On Oct 8th 2021, a FTDNA 111 marker test result helped identify him as Wilfred Charles Atkins (1866-1897).  
 I have no pictures of  my  previously unknown patrilineal great great grandfather, Wilfred Charles Atkins; but a kind lady (and a newly found Atkins cousin) on ancestry.com reached out and  sent me a picture of Wilfred's eldest brother, Charles William Atkins (1859-1938)

So this is my patrilineal great great great uncle and the oldest known picture (~1904 when he would have been 46 years old) of a R-FGC12384 man

[Image: qEYNv75.png]


Very thankful to get this picture.
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50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#3
Worthy moustache. Awesome.
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#4
My daughter said he looked like Teddy Roosevelt due mustache.  He was President when picture was taken.  It must have been the style of that period.

I believe picture was taken in Australia.
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50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#5
Quote:This line goes back 2 more generations to a William Atkins b. 1812 in Wicklow, Ireland (my current patrilineal brick wall).  His son Charles (my great great great grandfather) was born in Dublin, Ireland in 1838.  In 1841 and 1851, William's occupation was listed as railroad police constable.  In 1861 his occupation is railway ticket collector.  I have no information about William or Charles prior to 1841 in Ireland, but William's children were baptized in an Anglican church in London, in the 1840s, so I'm assuming he was working class Anglo-Irish.

Just wanted to save some info I recently gathered.
My hypothesis is that my William Atkins b 1812 in Wicklow Ireland (current patrilineal brickwall), who was a railway constable in 1841 England, got his start in railway associated work in Ireland.  He left Dublin for England between 1838 and 1841.

Quote:The Dublin and Kingstown Railway (D&KR), which opened in 1834, was Ireland's first passenger railway. It linked Westland Row in Dublin with Kingstown Harbour (Dún Laoghaire) in County Dublin.  The D&KR was also notable for a number of other achievements besides being Ireland's first passenger railway: it operated an atmospheric railway for ten years; claimed the first use of a passenger tank engine; was the world's first commuter railway and was the first railway company to build its own locomotives.

I wondered if this railway has a police force, but couldn't find any evidence for this until today
Quote:Robert Collis was a member of the ‘day police’ of the Kingstown and Dublin railway. On Thursday 10 January 1839, the five o’clock train stopped at Booterstown, station, and the doors were opened as usual by the officer, for passengers who were getting out. After the doors were closed, a gentleman thought of stopping and knocked at the window on the opposite side to that at which it is usual to get out. The officer opened the door for him and let him out. The train was at this time in motion and as he hastily shut the door it is supposed that his coat was caught in it, for he was immediately pulled down and two of the carriages passed over his body. When the train had stopped the body was carried to the station-house but all life was departed from it. An Inquest on Robert Collis was held at Booterstown, Co. Dublin, on Friday 11 January 1839 by Sir Nicholas Brady. The verdict of the jury was Accidental death.  SOURCE: PSR2 BTP HG Service Record, Dublin Weekly Register 12 January 1839

https://www.btphg.org.uk/wp-content/uplo...-2021.docx
So I now know there was a railway police force in operation while William Atkins was still in Ireland. I think there is a good chance, this or other related railway work may have been his occupation in the Dublin area in the late 1830s.

This 8 mile long railway line terminated in Monkstown near Kingstown Harbor (now called Dún Laoghaire Harbour)

In Griffith’s Valuation, 1847-1864, in 1853  there was a William Atkins living Gibraltar Place, to the rear of Marine Terrace, Dunleary Monkstown, Dublin.  This address is about 3 city blocks from the south end of the railway line. I'm wondering if this might be my William Atkin's father, who stayed in Ireland after his son left.  Maybe they both were employed by this railway company.

The house rented by this William Atkins was valued at 6 pounds while most of the neighboring houses were valued at 77 to 100 pounds. Houses rented by people with an "Esquire" at the end of their names in this area averaged about 90 pounds in value. I mention this because my William Atkins b in 1812, probably was from the working class based on his constable career choice; so one wouldn't expect his father's house rental to be on par with folks with an "Esquire" at the end of their name. In this case, it's less than 7% of the average esquire's home value.

Ironically,  I've actually been to this harbor in 1997 when I took a high speed ferry from Holy Head, Wales to Dublin.

There was a Reverend William Atkins who lived 0.6 miles away from this William Atkins living in in Monkstown in 1853. However, the Reverend was living in Donnybrook, Dublin, Ireland in 1853 and his rental home value was 42 pounds, so probably a different William Atkins.

Another angle I'm looking into whether my line may have arrived in Ireland from England via the Quaker movement.  On ancestry, I've found a few Irish Quaker matches...the Quaker movement in England started in the same area where my brother paternal line has its TMRCA in Westmorland, England. 

The Quakers were heavily involved in the construction of the railway in Dublin.

Quote:Monkstown Quakers and the Railways
The first railway in the world was the Stockton and Darlington railway in England, opened in 1826. There was Quaker involvement in that line and a number of the directors were Quakers, including a member of the Chaytor family – a name also associated with Monkstown Friends. It is not surprising, then, that when a company was formed to build a railway from Dublin to Kingstown, that several Monkstown Quakers should be involved. Three of the eight directors of the company were Quakers – Edward Alexander, Thornas Pim and James Perry. The company secretary, and later treasurer, James Pim junior, was another.

The involvement of Quakers in the Dublin and Kingstown Railway continued through the lifetime of the company. When they began to manufacture their own locomotives – the first railway company in the world to do so – it was a Quaker, Richard Pim, who was the engineer involved. One of his apprentices, Samuel Haughton, another Quaker, later looked after the building of engines. The involvement of these engineers and the directors led to the locomotives on the Dublin and Kingstown line being known as “Quaker engines”.

The opening of the Dublin and Kingstown Railway in 1834 had an immense effect on the development of the area along the line, particularly in Dun Laoghaire and Monkstown and, to a lesser extent, in Blackrock. The ease with which people could commute to work in the city and the reasonable cost of season tickets ensured that many more people, Quakers included, left the city to live in Dun Laoghaire and Monkstown.
U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#6
I  subscribed to the British Newpaper Archieves site and found this story about my patrilineal great great great great grandfather William Atkins, a railway police constable in England during the 1840s to 1860s.

Quote:Weekly Dispatch (London) - Sunday 07 February 1841
"CUTTING AND WOUNDING.—William Searing, aged 26, was indicted for feloniously cutting and wounding William Atkins, with intent to do some grievous bodily harm.

It appeared that the prosecutor, who is a police-constable, went to a place near Tottenham [Northern London, England], where two men were fighting, to put an end to the disturbance. He took one of the men into custody, and was conveying him to the station-house, when the prisoner jumped over a hedge and struck him a violent blow on the face, which knocked him down. The person he had in custody then escaped, and the prisoner also succeeded in getting away. 

The following day the constable went to this place, where the prisoner was at work, and said, "Oh, my gentleman, is this you? I want you."; seizing him by the collar, and attempting to convey him to the station-house.

The prisoner struggled to escape, and the constable said if he would not walk quietly he would use his truncheon. He accordingly took the truncheon from his pocket, and the prisoner then walked peaceably for some distance. But he a second time attempted to escape, and knocked the constable down, took his truncheon from him, and inflicted a severe wound on his head with it. The scalp cut through, and the wound was upwards of two inches in length. The constable was also kicked in several places, and the prisoner left him lying lifeless on the ground.

This happened on the 3rd of September [1840], and the prisoner was not apprehended until the 25th of January [1841].

Mr Payne addressed the Jury for the prisoner, who was found guilty of a common assault, and sentenced to be imprisoned and kept to hard labor in the House of Correction for six calendar months.

This is of interest on multiple levels.  It's currently the oldest record I have for William Atkins, it's an actual quote from a 4th great grandfather, and this story further narrows the timeline of when William Atkins, wife Elizabeth and son Charles (my 3 great grandfather) moved from Dublin to London (I know Charles was born in Dublin in 1838, and that William and Elizabeth's twins were christened in Hackney, London in July 1841, where he is also listed as a police constable)

I've found a few more similar stories of him being assaulted during his police work.  I'll post them later.
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50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
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#7
In another newspaper article about the same incident, the defendant is called a "navigator".  This was a term used to describe railway workers during this period
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navvy

So in 1840 there must have been railway construction in Tottenham

"The main railway line through Tottenham is one of the oldest in the country. The Northern and Eastern Railway produced a scheme in 1839 to install a trunk railway from Islington in North London to York, by way of Ware and Cambridge, Peterborough and Lincoln...The Company found, however that their powers were limited to a railway just 53 miles in length, from London to Cambridge.  The original plan had to be curtailed still further and the company applied for additional Acts in 1839 and 1840 to abandon plans for a line north of Bishop’s Stortford and for a deviation at the London end"

So these workers/navigators were probably working on the line North of Tottenham to Cambridge in Sep 1840.

Image of the Totteham station in ~1840
[Image: cattle_arriving_tottenham_station_.jpg]
https://tottenham-summerhillroad.com/ear...tenham.htm
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50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#8
Quote:South Eastern Gazette - Tuesday 30 October 1849
MAIDSTONE AND SOUTH EASTERN GAZETTE. LATEST INTELLIGENCE. CITY, MONDAY,
Folkestone, Kent:  Thomas Galvin and William Atkins were sworn in as constables to act in the borough, for the South Railway Company.
I know this is my William Atkins because he and his family appear here in the 1851 census.

William Atkins is on the receiving end of 3 different assaults as a railway police constable in Folkestone, Kent
Quote:South Eastern Gazette - Tuesday 09 July 1850
Folkestone, Kent.  Friday.— (Before C. Colder, Esq., In the chair, and W. Major, E«q.) —William Germany appeared to answer the information of William Atkins, constable the employ of the Railway Company on the pier, who deposed—

"On Saturday evening last I was on duty at the station, when I saw defendant and another man, with flys [one horse lightweight carriages], in the yard leading to the hooking office. I asked the defendant move the horse out of the way, and make room for the passengers, which he refused to do. 1 took hold of the horse’s head and put him back, when he struck me five or six times with his whip as he sat on the box of the fly. He then slipped down from the fly, made a blow at me with the blunt end of the whip, and said 'i l will knock you down' then struck me three or four different times, whilst 1 was standing inside the rails, with the thong of the whip."

The plaintiff [William Atkins] handed a certificate from Mr. Kaeles, surgeon, staling that the injury he received were very severe, and kept him from duty two days.
Edwin Kinch a warder in the convict department at Shorn Cliff barracks, and Benjamin Saltham, an officer in the convict department, corroborated portions of this evidence.
Henry Foreman, called for the defence, deposed—l am a fly driver the employment of Mr. Strood. I saw the defendant’s horse’s head just inside the gateway, when the defendant told him to put back, which did till he got outside of the gate. The plaintiff then came to the horse and pushed it back farther, and the defendant commenced whipping him. Defendant’s horse was not inside the gate, when the plaintiff took hold of his head put it back.

The defendant was convicted in the penalty of 10 shillings. and costs, or fourteen days’ imprisonment in Dover gaol [jail], and the magistrates hoped that that would be a lesson for the future to all fly drivers, etc., to the language they made use of was disgraceful.

Quote:South Eastern Gazette - Tuesday 13 August 1850
Folkestone, Kent:  Henry Vale appeared to answer the complaint of William Atkins, constable in the employ of the South Eastern Railway Company, for unlawfully assaulting and beating him on the 2nd inst.

Mr. Oliver appeared, on behalf of the company, for Atkins. It appeared that defendant was u touting,” near the door of the station, and on Atkins removing him, the assault was committed. —Adjourned for fortnight, there being no evidence to prove that defendant was on the company’s premises. Mr. Oliver said he had a second information against the defendant, for assaulting Atkins on the same day, and about two hours after the first assault, opposite the Pavilion, to which information the defendant pleaded guilty, and was fined 5 shillings. and costs, or fourteen days’ imprisonment.

Quote:South Eastern Gazette - Tuesday 25 November 1851
Folkestone, Kent:  Petty Sessions, Tuesday.— (Before Smith, Esq-, Mayor, and W. Major, Esq.) John Gilbert was fined for an assault upon William Atkins, police-constable, belonging to the South Eastern Railway Company. From the evidence of the complainant it appeared that he was trying to get a female friend passed to Dover, with the same ticket, she having come to Folkestone by mistake; the complainant’s duty was to charge 1 shilling extra, which did, when the defendant took his purse out of his pocket, swung it round, and struck the complainant in his face.
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50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
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#9
A quote of what life was like in 1820s and 1830s in the not so nice parts of Dublin
Quote:The disorder in Dublin before the establishment of the Dublin Metropolitan Police - D.M.P. was graphically described by a chief superintendent
twenty years later (written in 1849)
Previously(sic) to the introduction of the present police, security for person and property, peace and general good order was of the very lowest character in the Dublin police district. The public houses in low neighborhoods such as Stoneybatter, Smithfield, Church St[reetJ, Mary's Lane, Hill Lane, Thomas St[reet], [the] Coombe, [the] Liberties, Townsend st [ reet J , and the quays were furnished with relays of waiters and scarcely ever closed before one o'clock at night. Drunkenness and as a consequence disorderly conduct and fighting were almost universal amongst the lower classes. The practice of stripping, and fighting in a state of nudity, in open day, in the public streets (especially on Sabbath mornings) by violent and drunken characters, might be said to have been hourly occurrences, and was indulged in with all but absolute impunity; the instance being rare in which the parties were interfered with until the fighting ended. The suburbs, such as Ringsend, Irishtown, Harold's Cross, Phibsborough, Dolphin's Barn, and Phoenix Park were the scenes of the most disgraceful and disgusting proceedings, viz wrestling, dogfighting, cockfighting, boxing, gambling and drinking in the open ai.r. Unlawful combination in its different forms of 'Ribbonism,''Billywelterism,' 'Widdgeonism,' 'Northsidemen,' Southsidemen' - words or designations now utterly meaningless - obtained to such an extent amongst the working classes as to be the cause of unceasing alarm and apprehension to the well behaved of every class; and, as illustrative of the 'Reign of Terror' which might without exaggeration be said to [have] exist[ed] in Dublin, the most popular man of his time, Mr o' Connell, not only risked his popularity but his person by presuming even to remonstrate with the Dublin combinations. These parties were so utterly reckless from the impunity they enjoyed that they never missed an opportunity of personally injuring or insulting their opponents; and, a principal object of each was to perpetrate violence and insults at the wakes and funerals of their adversaries. The funerals generally took place on the Sabbath, and it was an unusual thing for a deceased member of any faction to be buried without a fight first taking place over his remains on its(sic) way to Glasnevin, Bluebell or Bully's Acre churchyards ...•. Highway robberies - invariably accompanied with serious injury to the person, were of nightly occurrence on the Swords, Santry, Cabra, Chapelizod, Naas, Milltown and Rack roads; and, such was the fear of highway robbers, that many persons incurred the expense of a night's stay in Dublin rather than proceed to their homes after a certain hour in the evening.

Not sure if my William Atkins was a police constable in Dublin prior to taking up this occupation in London in 1840, but here is the life of a typical, Dublin Metropolitan Policeman in the late 1830s
Quote:The duty for 24 hours was divided between a night relief and two  day reliefs. The men of a relief for duty were expected to assemble at their station house around a quarter of an hour before starting the beat, when they were inspected by their respective sergeants to see that they were "all perfectly sober, and correctly dressed and appointed." Each division was divided into a number of sub-divisions, which were supervised by inspectors; sub-divisions were divided into sections, each section being under the charge of a sergeant or, after 1855, an acting sergeant, and each section was divided into a number of beats. Constables were held responsible for the "protection of life and property" on their beat. After hearing the orders of the day from their sergeant, the men were marched off to their respective beats. They were expected to patrol these at the rate of two and a half miles an hour. Constables usually did beat duty singly; however, at the height of the Fenian scare, and also in areas considered dangerous for a lone policeman to enter, the beats were doubled.(51) The weapon usually carried by a beat constable
was the truncheon or baton. A journalist who witnessed the first parade of O.M.P. men, prior to their taking over the policing of the metropolis in January 1838, wrote of the baton that it was "composed of Lignum vitae (dense, hard, durable wood), and a stroke from which, impelled by an arm ordinarily strong, would, from the weight of the wood, be sufficient to fell an ox."...

In making the rounds of his beat the constable was required to be "perfectly acquainted" with the streets and courtways of his section, and to "possess such a knowledge of the inhabitants of each house, as will enable him to recognise 23 their persons." (60) Strict rules were laid down for his behaviour on the beat; above all, he was to have a "perfect command of temper, never suffering himself to be moved in the slightest degree by any language or threats that may be used. 11 (61) He was ordered not to "shoulder" past pedestrians, but to "give way in a mild manner:" it was hoped that his "civil and respectful" conduct would win him the support of the public in the execution of his duties.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/214368856.pdf
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50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#10
I've been plotting various matches who have ancestry from Wicklow Ireland using 3 of my paternal Mitchell close relatives, and a couple of Atkins cousins.  There appears to be a concentration of matches in Rathdrum, Ireland.  I know my William Atkins was born in Wicklow in 1812, but by 1838 he was in Dublin.

Quote:We are told that during the first years of the century twelve fairs used to be held every year at Rathdrum, in County Wicklow, and 1,200 pieces of flannel on an average offered for sale at a single fair. But after 1820 the trade began to decline, and in 1830 the Flannel Hall had to be closed and the fairs stopped.  A weaver from County Roscommon stated before the Poor Enquiry Commission of 1835 that eighteen years before he could earn 2s. or 2s. 6d. every day in the year by weaving woollens or linens. For five or six years these wages had continued, but about 1822 or 1823 they had begun to drop. All the weavers in his neighbourhood who were able to turn their hands to something else had done so, only the old men who were fit for no other work keeping to the trade. Now 8d. a day was the most that could be earned. No friezes or flannels had been made at all during the last two years.  https://celt.ucc.ie/published/E900040.html
Maybe he or his father was involved in the Flannel industry, and had to move to Dublin to find work when it collapsed.
U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#11
(12-29-2023, 04:16 AM)Mitchell-Atkins Wrote: I've been plotting various matches who have ancestry from Wicklow Ireland using 3 of my paternal Mitchell close relatives, and a couple of Atkins cousins.  There appears to be a concentration of matches in Rathdrum, Ireland.  I know my William Atkins was born in Wicklow in 1812, but by 1838 he was in Dublin.

I use a dedicated google map which I've been collecting data in for a couple of years.  It has  the location of paternal line dna matches with ancestors from Wicklow and Atkins people I've found with a connection to Wicklow in the 17th to 19th centuries; from various sources (family trees, tax/birth/death/census records etc)
 
The stars on the map are the locations in Wicklow and Wexford, where an Atkins cousin and a Mitchell relative share a dna match with ancestry from Wicklow.  The darker the red, the more centimorgans shared (20-33 cM from orange to dark red/purple).  I placed a diamond outline on 4 of them and in the bottom map I also plotted the Atkins folks I found in this area (red pins).  Most of the Atkins folk tend to cluster in Rathdrum.

[Image: 9i8Eibc.png]
U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#12
what subclade from R-L2 Would be Latins/Etruscans?
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#13
(01-24-2024, 10:09 PM)brunolord15 Wrote: what subclade from R-L2 Would be Latins/Etruscans?

That question isn't really related to this thread.  Recommend you ask it in the L2 section.  As I mentioned before Richard Rocca is much more knowledgeable than I when it comes to U152 in Italia.
brunolord15 and Manofthehour like this post
U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
Reply
#14
Plotting the center point for known FGC47875 (one SNP above the FGC12384 SNP block.  FGC47875 has members from Britain, Hungary, and Italy), comes out to

N 51.232269, E 3.928879 which is west of Antwerp and Northeast of Ghent.  This would be in the old Menapi tribal area

Quote:Roman Britain
Cohors Primae Menapiorum – The First Cohort of Menapii
This unit were recruited from among the Menapii tribe of northern Belgica, a maritime tribe who occupied the coastal region of Belgium and part of northern France. Their capital was at Castellum Menapiorum, now known as Cassel in France. They are attested in Britain only on military diplomata.

Evidence for the presence of Cohors Primae Menapiorum in Britain

Military Diplomata 122AD:  In excellent condition, this discharge certificate was found in 1930 at Brigetio in Pannonia, now known as O-Szöny on the Danube in western Hungary; evidently the soldier to whom it once belonged went home after his military service in Ala Primae Pannoniorum Tampianae in Britain. This important document has since been acquired by the British Museum. It names 13 cavalry alae and 37 infantry and mixed cohortes – the largest number recorded on any diploma throughout the Roman empire. It is thought that this list represents the entire auxiliary force assigned to the governor Aulus Platorius Nepos, with which he was to garrison the north of Britain while his legionary troops were set to work building the forts, milecastles, turrets and curtain rampart of Hadrian’s Wall.


Military Diplomata – 124AD (RIB 2401.6):  This document names six cavalry alae and twenty-one infantry (cohortes peditatae) and part-mounted (cohortes equitatae) regiments, in the army of the propraetor Platorius Nepos. Several of the cavalry wing entries are damaged, as are the names of the document witnesses also the name of the owner of the diploma...
Imperator Caesar Trajanus Hadrianus Augustus, son of the divine Trajan Parthicus, grandson of the divine Nerva, high priest, holding tribunician power for the eighth time, three times consul, proconsular. To the horsemen and foot-soldiers who are serving in the six cavalry squadrons and twenty-one infantry cohorts...which are in Britain under Platorius Nepos. The veteran soldiers who have served twenty-five years or more and have received an honourable discharge and whose names are written below. To them and to their children for posterity has been granted the citizenship. Also lawful marriage to their wives they have at that time they are assigned the citizenship, or, if they were unmarried, with those whom they later marry, provided that it be only one woman for one man.

Dated sixteen days before the calends of October in the consulship of Gaius Julius Gallus and Gaius Valerius Severus (16th September 124AD)



https://www.roman-britain.co.uk/regiments/coh1men/

Plotting the center point for known FGC12401 (SNP block above FGC47875)
is N 49.050664 E 5.845546, which is just to the west of Xonville, France (18 mile west of Metz, France, in the Mediomatrici tribal area, just to the south of the Treveri tribe)

Quote:Elements of the Mediomatrici may have settled near Novara, in northwestern Italy, where place-names allude to their presence, such as Mezzomerico, attested as Mediomadrigo in 980.
Manofthehour likes this post
U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
Reply
#15
Not much new to report, but in an effort to get past my William Atkins b 1812 in Wicklow Ireland, who was a constable in England in 1840;  I did  a search of the British newspaper archive  for "Atkins" and "Constable" filtered to Ireland

And I came across a Edward Walter Atkin/Atkins who was a head constable/sub-inspector in Dublin.  His father's brother was a George Atkin who married a Matilda Burke and they had a son William Atkin born in 1812.

Same birth year and almost same name (Atkin vs Atkins) as my current brick wall.  

So far, I've been unable to learn anymore about this William Atkin, but if this happened to be my patrilineal line, then it goes back 8 more generations to John Atkin b 1568, Bilbrook, Somerset County, England.  His son John died in Cork, Ireland in 1641.
Pylsteen likes this post
U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
Reply


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