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Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Printable Version +- The GenArchivist Forum (https://genarchivist.com) +-- Forum: Human Population Genetics (https://genarchivist.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=21) +--- Forum: Y-Chromosome (Y-DNA) Haplogroups (https://genarchivist.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=22) +---- Forum: R (https://genarchivist.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=53) +----- Forum: R1b-P312 (https://genarchivist.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=65) +------ Forum: R1b-U152 (https://genarchivist.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=67) +------- Forum: L2 (https://genarchivist.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=68) +------- Thread: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 (/showthread.php?tid=36) Pages:
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Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 09-30-2023 This is a continuation of my "Help me solve a family mystery thread" from anthrogenica.com started back in 2014: Summary: After 44 years of personal research and 9 years of genetic testing, I learned the identity of my patrilineal great great grandfather. On Oct 8th 2021, a FTDNA 111 marker test result helped identify him as Wilfred Charles Atkins (1866-1897). This line goes back 2 more generations to a William Atkins b. 1812 in Wicklow, Ireland (my current patrilineal brick wall). His son Charles (my great great great grandfather) was born in Dublin, Ireland in 1838. In 1841 and 1851, William's occupation was listed as railroad police constable. In 1861 his occupation is railway ticket collector. I have no information about William or Charles prior to 1841 in Ireland, but William's children were baptized in an Anglican church in London, in the 1840s, so I'm assuming he was working class Anglo-Irish. While there were at least 3 Anglo-Irish Atkins lines in Cork, Ireland, none of their descendants are members of the ADKINS/ATKINS FTDNA Project. Because police constable was considered a working class occupation, and the above Anglo-Irish Atkins lines were landed gentry, I've doubted my line descends from one of these lines. However, I recently came across this article, which may mean I need to reconsider the possibility. alburyhistory.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Heyward-Atkins.pdf Quote:Heyward St Leger Atkins (1812-1890) was born in County Cork, Ireland, and died at St Helier, Jersey. Besides sharing a surname and an occupation in police work, both Heyward Atkins and William Atkins were born in Ireland in 1812. Heyward left Ireland for Australia in 1832, and William left for England sometime between 1838 and 1841. I know a police magistrate is more of a mid level position, while my William Atkins had more pedestrian jobs, but Australia was probably less class conscious than Victorian England. To eliminate this possibility, I will just to find some patrilineal descendants of these Anglo-Irish Atkins lines that would be willing to do dna testing to see if there is a match. There are presently 2 FGC2384 subclades: FGC12390 (known TMRCA, 1838 AD). Oldest known ancestor, William Atkins, born 1812, Wicklow, Ireland. FGC47883 (estimated TMRCA ~1606 AD). Oldest known ancestor, William Adamthwaite, m. 1769 in Brough, Westmorland, Joseph Guess b 1790, Orange, Co., NC. Their TMRCA is estimated to be 1286 AD...most likely in Britain...possibly Northern England or southern Scotland. ![]() A comparison of different dating methodologies from FTDNA and Iain McDonald. On the left side is the Age estimates for the Guess-Adamthwaite FGC12384>FGC47883 TMRCA and on the right the age estimates for the FGC12384 Guess-Adamthwaite/Mitchell-Atkins TMRCA. The Mitchell-Atkins FGC12384>FGC12390 line has a known TMRCA of 1838 AD. Iain's hybrid method uses both STR and SNP inputs as well as genealogical info when available. I place more confidence in his dates than in FTDNA's SNP method. As you can see on the right, Iain's best guess date for the FGC12384 TMRCA 1286 CE, is in between FTDNA's STR age estimates of 1250 and 1350 CE. The FTDNA STR age estimates are ~300 years later than their SNP age estimates. RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 10-17-2023 Quote:Summary: After 44 years of personal research and 9 years of genetic testing, I learned the identity of my patrilineal great great grandfather. On Oct 8th 2021, a FTDNA 111 marker test result helped identify him as Wilfred Charles Atkins (1866-1897).I have no pictures of my previously unknown patrilineal great great grandfather, Wilfred Charles Atkins; but a kind lady (and a newly found Atkins cousin) on ancestry.com reached out and sent me a picture of Wilfred's eldest brother, Charles William Atkins (1859-1938) So this is my patrilineal great great great uncle and the oldest known picture (~1904 when he would have been 46 years old) of a R-FGC12384 man ![]() Very thankful to get this picture. RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - rmstevens2 - 10-21-2023 Worthy moustache. Awesome. RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 10-21-2023 My daughter said he looked like Teddy Roosevelt due mustache. He was President when picture was taken. It must have been the style of that period. I believe picture was taken in Australia. RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 12-24-2023 Quote:This line goes back 2 more generations to a William Atkins b. 1812 in Wicklow, Ireland (my current patrilineal brick wall). His son Charles (my great great great grandfather) was born in Dublin, Ireland in 1838. In 1841 and 1851, William's occupation was listed as railroad police constable. In 1861 his occupation is railway ticket collector. I have no information about William or Charles prior to 1841 in Ireland, but William's children were baptized in an Anglican church in London, in the 1840s, so I'm assuming he was working class Anglo-Irish. Just wanted to save some info I recently gathered. My hypothesis is that my William Atkins b 1812 in Wicklow Ireland (current patrilineal brickwall), who was a railway constable in 1841 England, got his start in railway associated work in Ireland. He left Dublin for England between 1838 and 1841. Quote:The Dublin and Kingstown Railway (D&KR), which opened in 1834, was Ireland's first passenger railway. It linked Westland Row in Dublin with Kingstown Harbour (Dún Laoghaire) in County Dublin. The D&KR was also notable for a number of other achievements besides being Ireland's first passenger railway: it operated an atmospheric railway for ten years; claimed the first use of a passenger tank engine; was the world's first commuter railway and was the first railway company to build its own locomotives. I wondered if this railway has a police force, but couldn't find any evidence for this until today Quote:Robert Collis was a member of the ‘day police’ of the Kingstown and Dublin railway. On Thursday 10 January 1839, the five o’clock train stopped at Booterstown, station, and the doors were opened as usual by the officer, for passengers who were getting out. After the doors were closed, a gentleman thought of stopping and knocked at the window on the opposite side to that at which it is usual to get out. The officer opened the door for him and let him out. The train was at this time in motion and as he hastily shut the door it is supposed that his coat was caught in it, for he was immediately pulled down and two of the carriages passed over his body. When the train had stopped the body was carried to the station-house but all life was departed from it. An Inquest on Robert Collis was held at Booterstown, Co. Dublin, on Friday 11 January 1839 by Sir Nicholas Brady. The verdict of the jury was Accidental death. SOURCE: PSR2 BTP HG Service Record, Dublin Weekly Register 12 January 1839 https://www.btphg.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/RoH-Citations-October-2021.docx So I now know there was a railway police force in operation while William Atkins was still in Ireland. I think there is a good chance, this or other related railway work may have been his occupation in the Dublin area in the late 1830s. This 8 mile long railway line terminated in Monkstown near Kingstown Harbor (now called Dún Laoghaire Harbour). In Griffith’s Valuation, 1847-1864, in 1853 there was a William Atkins living Gibraltar Place, to the rear of Marine Terrace, Dunleary Monkstown, Dublin. This address is about 3 city blocks from the south end of the railway line. I'm wondering if this might be my William Atkin's father, who stayed in Ireland after his son left. Maybe they both were employed by this railway company. The house rented by this William Atkins was valued at 6 pounds while most of the neighboring houses were valued at 77 to 100 pounds. Houses rented by people with an "Esquire" at the end of their names in this area averaged about 90 pounds in value. I mention this because my William Atkins b in 1812, probably was from the working class based on his constable career choice; so one wouldn't expect his father's house rental to be on par with folks with an "Esquire" at the end of their name. In this case, it's less than 7% of the average esquire's home value. Ironically, I've actually been to this harbor in 1997 when I took a high speed ferry from Holy Head, Wales to Dublin. There was a Reverend William Atkins who lived 0.6 miles away from this William Atkins living in in Monkstown in 1853. However, the Reverend was living in Donnybrook, Dublin, Ireland in 1853 and his rental home value was 42 pounds, so probably a different William Atkins. Another angle I'm looking into whether my line may have arrived in Ireland from England via the Quaker movement. On ancestry, I've found a few Irish Quaker matches...the Quaker movement in England started in the same area where my brother paternal line has its TMRCA in Westmorland, England. The Quakers were heavily involved in the construction of the railway in Dublin. Quote:Monkstown Quakers and the Railways RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 12-26-2023 I subscribed to the British Newpaper Archieves site and found this story about my patrilineal great great great great grandfather William Atkins, a railway police constable in England during the 1840s to 1860s. Quote:Weekly Dispatch (London) - Sunday 07 February 1841 This is of interest on multiple levels. It's currently the oldest record I have for William Atkins, it's an actual quote from a 4th great grandfather, and this story further narrows the timeline of when William Atkins, wife Elizabeth and son Charles (my 3 great grandfather) moved from Dublin to London (I know Charles was born in Dublin in 1838, and that William and Elizabeth's twins were christened in Hackney, London in July 1841, where he is also listed as a police constable) I've found a few more similar stories of him being assaulted during his police work. I'll post them later. RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 12-26-2023 In another newspaper article about the same incident, the defendant is called a "navigator". This was a term used to describe railway workers during this period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navvy So in 1840 there must have been railway construction in Tottenham "The main railway line through Tottenham is one of the oldest in the country. The Northern and Eastern Railway produced a scheme in 1839 to install a trunk railway from Islington in North London to York, by way of Ware and Cambridge, Peterborough and Lincoln...The Company found, however that their powers were limited to a railway just 53 miles in length, from London to Cambridge. The original plan had to be curtailed still further and the company applied for additional Acts in 1839 and 1840 to abandon plans for a line north of Bishop’s Stortford and for a deviation at the London end" So these workers/navigators were probably working on the line North of Tottenham to Cambridge in Sep 1840. Image of the Totteham station in ~1840 ![]() https://tottenham-summerhillroad.com/early_railways_of_tottenham.htm RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 12-27-2023 Quote:South Eastern Gazette - Tuesday 30 October 1849I know this is my William Atkins because he and his family appear here in the 1851 census. William Atkins is on the receiving end of 3 different assaults as a railway police constable in Folkestone, Kent Quote:South Eastern Gazette - Tuesday 09 July 1850 Quote:South Eastern Gazette - Tuesday 13 August 1850 Quote:South Eastern Gazette - Tuesday 25 November 1851 RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 12-27-2023 A quote of what life was like in 1820s and 1830s in the not so nice parts of Dublin Quote:The disorder in Dublin before the establishment of the Dublin Metropolitan Police - D.M.P. was graphically described by a chief superintendent Not sure if my William Atkins was a police constable in Dublin prior to taking up this occupation in London in 1840, but here is the life of a typical, Dublin Metropolitan Policeman in the late 1830s Quote:The duty for 24 hours was divided between a night relief and two day reliefs. The men of a relief for duty were expected to assemble at their station house around a quarter of an hour before starting the beat, when they were inspected by their respective sergeants to see that they were "all perfectly sober, and correctly dressed and appointed." Each division was divided into a number of sub-divisions, which were supervised by inspectors; sub-divisions were divided into sections, each section being under the charge of a sergeant or, after 1855, an acting sergeant, and each section was divided into a number of beats. Constables were held responsible for the "protection of life and property" on their beat. After hearing the orders of the day from their sergeant, the men were marched off to their respective beats. They were expected to patrol these at the rate of two and a half miles an hour. Constables usually did beat duty singly; however, at the height of the Fenian scare, and also in areas considered dangerous for a lone policeman to enter, the beats were doubled.(51) The weapon usually carried by a beat constable https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/214368856.pdf RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 12-29-2023 I've been plotting various matches who have ancestry from Wicklow Ireland using 3 of my paternal Mitchell close relatives, and a couple of Atkins cousins. There appears to be a concentration of matches in Rathdrum, Ireland. I know my William Atkins was born in Wicklow in 1812, but by 1838 he was in Dublin. Quote:We are told that during the first years of the century twelve fairs used to be held every year at Rathdrum, in County Wicklow, and 1,200 pieces of flannel on an average offered for sale at a single fair. But after 1820 the trade began to decline, and in 1830 the Flannel Hall had to be closed and the fairs stopped. A weaver from County Roscommon stated before the Poor Enquiry Commission of 1835 that eighteen years before he could earn 2s. or 2s. 6d. every day in the year by weaving woollens or linens. For five or six years these wages had continued, but about 1822 or 1823 they had begun to drop. All the weavers in his neighbourhood who were able to turn their hands to something else had done so, only the old men who were fit for no other work keeping to the trade. Now 8d. a day was the most that could be earned. No friezes or flannels had been made at all during the last two years. https://celt.ucc.ie/published/E900040.htmlMaybe he or his father was involved in the Flannel industry, and had to move to Dublin to find work when it collapsed. RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 12-30-2023 (12-29-2023, 04:16 AM)Mitchell-Atkins Wrote: I've been plotting various matches who have ancestry from Wicklow Ireland using 3 of my paternal Mitchell close relatives, and a couple of Atkins cousins. There appears to be a concentration of matches in Rathdrum, Ireland. I know my William Atkins was born in Wicklow in 1812, but by 1838 he was in Dublin. I use a dedicated google map which I've been collecting data in for a couple of years. It has the location of paternal line dna matches with ancestors from Wicklow and Atkins people I've found with a connection to Wicklow in the 17th to 19th centuries; from various sources (family trees, tax/birth/death/census records etc) The stars on the map are the locations in Wicklow and Wexford, where an Atkins cousin and a Mitchell relative share a dna match with ancestry from Wicklow. The darker the red, the more centimorgans shared (20-33 cM from orange to dark red/purple). I placed a diamond outline on 4 of them and in the bottom map I also plotted the Atkins folks I found in this area (red pins). Most of the Atkins folk tend to cluster in Rathdrum. ![]() RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - brunolord15 - 01-24-2024 what subclade from R-L2 Would be Latins/Etruscans? RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 01-24-2024 (01-24-2024, 10:09 PM)brunolord15 Wrote: what subclade from R-L2 Would be Latins/Etruscans? That question isn't really related to this thread. Recommend you ask it in the L2 section. As I mentioned before Richard Rocca is much more knowledgeable than I when it comes to U152 in Italia. RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 03-23-2024 Plotting the center point for known FGC47875 (one SNP above the FGC12384 SNP block. FGC47875 has members from Britain, Hungary, and Italy), comes out to N 51.232269, E 3.928879 which is west of Antwerp and Northeast of Ghent. This would be in the old Menapi tribal area Quote:Roman Britain https://www.roman-britain.co.uk/regiments/coh1men/ Plotting the center point for known FGC12401 (SNP block above FGC47875) is N 49.050664 E 5.845546, which is just to the west of Xonville, France (18 mile west of Metz, France, in the Mediomatrici tribal area, just to the south of the Treveri tribe) Quote:Elements of the Mediomatrici may have settled near Novara, in northwestern Italy, where place-names allude to their presence, such as Mezzomerico, attested as Mediomadrigo in 980. RE: Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>>FGC47869>Y9080>FGC47875>FGC12384 - Mitchell-Atkins - 04-14-2024 Not much new to report, but in an effort to get past my William Atkins b 1812 in Wicklow Ireland, who was a constable in England in 1840; I did a search of the British newspaper archive for "Atkins" and "Constable" filtered to Ireland And I came across a Edward Walter Atkin/Atkins who was a head constable/sub-inspector in Dublin. His father's brother was a George Atkin who married a Matilda Burke and they had a son William Atkin born in 1812. Same birth year and almost same name (Atkin vs Atkins) as my current brick wall. So far, I've been unable to learn anymore about this William Atkin, but if this happened to be my patrilineal line, then it goes back 8 more generations to John Atkin b 1568, Bilbrook, Somerset County, England. His son John died in Cork, Ireland in 1641. |