Map of ancient DE samples

[Riverman]

Fun and interesting discussion, folks! I'm enjoying it.

In case you're wondering why I stuck my nose into this thread, one of my second great grandfathers on my dad's side (the father of one of my great grandmothers) was E-V13, so, naturally, I'm curious about it. I wish some of my cousins on that line would do the Big Y-700, because for now E-V13 is as far as they've gone.

I believe Riverman is already aware that my Holmes second great grandfather was E-V13, because we discussed him in another thread. The MDKA on that line was born in Northern Ireland.

Since the British are so well-tested, its worth it, they might get close matches. That said, there are single tester-age old branches of British people around as well. I often wonder how longer some huge STR tested groups of American founder lineages need until they get their first BigY. One would assume that people with keen genealogical interest, which already tested their yDNA, would rather sooner than later do that step. But sometimes they need quite long for that decision.

Coming back to the topic of this thread, the new samples from Cambridgeshire might get analysed by FTDNA as well:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...3.531048v1

E1b1b is fairly well represented in that paper with 6 samples, about 4-5 %. Unfortunately many of these samples are rather bad quality, so I don't expect excellent downstream assignments.

[Capsian20]

Fun and interesting discussion, folks! I'm enjoying it.

In case you're wondering why I stuck my nose into this thread, one of my second great grandfathers on my dad's side (the father of one of my great grandmothers) was E-V13, so, naturally, I'm curious about it. I wish some of my cousins on that line would do the Big Y-700, because for now E-V13 is as far as they've gone.

I believe Riverman is already aware that my Holmes second great grandfather was E-V13, because we discussed him in another thread. The MDKA on that line was born in Northern Ireland.

Since the British are so well-tested, its worth it, they might get close matches. That said, there are single tester-age old branches of British people around as well. I often wonder how longer some huge STR tested groups of American founder lineages need until they get their first BigY. One would assume that people with keen genealogical interest, which already tested their yDNA, would rather sooner than later do that step. But sometimes they need quite long for that decision.

Coming back to the topic of this thread, the new samples from Cambridgeshire might get analysed by FTDNA as well:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...3.531048v1

E1b1b is fairly well represented in that paper with 6 samples, about 4-5 %. Unfortunately many of these samples are rather bad quality, so I don't expect excellent downstream assignments.

I think this samples indeed it's found in Map Passa

[Capsian20]

there this samples in Map Passa

Cambridgeshire (Medieval, Post-Medieval)
descrizione
E-M35 (1060-830 ybp)
E-M78 (1060-635 ybp)
E-Z1057 (796-489 ybp)
E-M78 (796-489 ybp)
E-M78 (x2) (710-462 ybp)

[Atlas]

It often feels like people are going in circles discussing the origin of haplogroup E, as well as its connection to the Afro-Asiatic language family. It is a popular topic, after all, as well as one that would be helped by more research. These questions were asked quite often on Anthrogenica, and the archives are available on Genoplot, so everyone is free to search there. Unfortunately, it also seems like many of the users who were more knowledgeable about this topic have not yet found their way to this site.

Here's one of the old threads which discussed this:
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...asiatic/14

There are at present three scenarios to explain the distribution of HGs D and E in Africans and Eurasians, the first two involving back-migration and the last requiring none. The authors of the paper below here favour the third scenario.

"Considering both the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic structure incorporating the D0 lineage, and published evidence for modern humans outside Africa, the most favored model involves an origin of the DE lineage within Africa with D0 and E remaining there, and migration out of the three lineages (C, D, and FT) that now form the vast majority of non-African Y chromosomes" (Haber et al., 2019).

The paper is available at: https://doi.org/10.1534/genetics.119.302368

We need more ancient DNA samples from Africa in any case.

[Capsian20]

It often feels like people are going in circles discussing the origin of haplogroup E, as well as its connection to the Afro-Asiatic language family. It is a popular topic, after all, as well as one that would be helped by more research. These questions were asked quite often on Anthrogenica, and the archives are available on Genoplot, so everyone is free to search there. Unfortunately, it also seems like many of the users who were more knowledgeable about this topic have not yet found their way to this site.
Here's one of the old threads which discussed this:
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...asiatic/14
There are at present three scenarios to explain the distribution of HGs D and E in Africans and Eurasians, the first two involving back-migration and the last requiring none. The authors of the paper below here favour the third scenario.

"Considering both the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic structure incorporating the D0 lineage, and published evidence for modern humans outside Africa, the most favored model involves an origin of the DE lineage within Africa with D0 and E remaining there, and migration out of the three lineages (C, D, and FT) that now form the vast majority of non-African Y chromosomes" (Haber et al., 2019).

The paper is available at: https://doi.org/10.1534/genetics.119.302368
We need more ancient DNA samples from Africa in any case.

Subclades others under Haplogroup E arent linked with Afro-Asiatic language family ,but Haplogroup E-M35 yes is linked with Afro-Asiatic language family

[rmstevens2]

It often feels like people are going in circles discussing the origin of haplogroup E, as well as its connection to the Afro-Asiatic language family. It is a popular topic, after all, as well as one that would be helped by more research. These questions were asked quite often on Anthrogenica, and the archives are available on Genoplot, so everyone is free to search there. Unfortunately, it also seems like many of the users who were more knowledgeable about this topic have not yet found their way to this site.

Here's one of the old threads which discussed this:
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...asiatic/14

There are at present three scenarios to explain the distribution of HGs D and E in Africans and Eurasians, the first two involving back-migration and the last requiring none. The authors of the paper below here favour the third scenario.

"Considering both the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic structure incorporating the D0 lineage, and published evidence for modern humans outside Africa, the most favored model involves an origin of the DE lineage within Africa with D0 and E remaining there, and migration out of the three lineages (C, D, and FT) that now form the vast majority of non-African Y chromosomes" (Haber et al., 2019).

The paper is available at: https://doi.org/10.1534/genetics.119.302368

We need more ancient DNA samples from Africa in any case.

Do you know of any papers that advance either or both of those first two scenarios?

[Atlas]

It often feels like people are going in circles discussing the origin of haplogroup E, as well as its connection to the Afro-Asiatic language family. It is a popular topic, after all, as well as one that would be helped by more research. These questions were asked quite often on Anthrogenica, and the archives are available on Genoplot, so everyone is free to search there. Unfortunately, it also seems like many of the users who were more knowledgeable about this topic have not yet found their way to this site.

Here's one of the old threads which discussed this:
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...asiatic/14

There are at present three scenarios to explain the distribution of HGs D and E in Africans and Eurasians, the first two involving back-migration and the last requiring none. The authors of the paper below here favour the third scenario.

"Considering both the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic structure incorporating the D0 lineage, and published evidence for modern humans outside Africa, the most favored model involves an origin of the DE lineage within Africa with D0 and E remaining there, and migration out of the three lineages (C, D, and FT) that now form the vast majority of non-African Y chromosomes" (Haber et al., 2019).

The paper is available at: https://doi.org/10.1534/genetics.119.302368

We need more ancient DNA samples from Africa in any case.

Do you know of any papers that advance either or both of those first two scenarios?

I've just done a basic, quick search and found a range of papers on the topic at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE. There are multiple papers that I saw which supported an Asian origin (Altheide and Hammer, 1997; Hammer et al., 1998; Bravi et al., 2000; Cabrera et al., 2018) for DE*, and they happen to have been published prior to the paper that I linked before (Haber et al., 2019). There are also other papers which support an African origin instead. Feel free to read all of those papers, search for more even, and see which hypothesis you think is best supported by the evidence available to us now . I still think we need more ancient samples to have a better understanding.

[Riverman]

It often feels like people are going in circles discussing the origin of haplogroup E, as well as its connection to the Afro-Asiatic language family. It is a popular topic, after all, as well as one that would be helped by more research. These questions were asked quite often on Anthrogenica, and the archives are available on Genoplot, so everyone is free to search there. Unfortunately, it also seems like many of the users who were more knowledgeable about this topic have not yet found their way to this site.

Here's one of the old threads which discussed this:
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...asiatic/14

There are at present three scenarios to explain the distribution of HGs D and E in Africans and Eurasians, the first two involving back-migration and the last requiring none. The authors of the paper below here favour the third scenario.

"Considering both the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic structure incorporating the D0 lineage, and published evidence for modern humans outside Africa, the most favored model involves an origin of the DE lineage within Africa with D0 and E remaining there, and migration out of the three lineages (C, D, and FT) that now form the vast majority of non-African Y chromosomes" (Haber et al., 2019).

The paper is available at: https://doi.org/10.1534/genetics.119.302368

We need more ancient DNA samples from Africa in any case.

Do you know of any papers that advance either or both of those first two scenarios?

I've just done a basic, quick search and found a range of papers on the topic at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE. There are multiple papers that I saw which supported an Asian origin (Altheide and Hammer, 1997; Hammer et al., 1998; Bravi et al., 2000; Cabrera et al., 2018) for DE*, and they happen to have been published prior to the paper that I linked before (Haber et al., 2019). There are also other papers which support an African origin instead. Feel free to read all of those papers, search for more even, and see which hypothesis you think is best supported by the evidence available to us now . I still think we need more ancient samples to have a better understanding.

I absolutely agree, without ancient DNA everything remains conjecture. Like even very basal upstream modern testers could have just done the same as the downstream ones: They could have migrated in more recent times. You never know whether someone with an upstream basal position has ancestors which lived in a region for e.g. 30.000 years. In fact, for most regions of the world, that's rather unlikely.
Additionally, a large fraction of the Southern Arabian diversity was going extinct when Semitic J expanded there in the Bronze and Iron Age. There might have been a population which was much more Basal Eurasian and higher in E, because the regional J branches are all pretty young and expanded there fairly recently. Even some of the modern E in those regions seems to have come in later, probably even with the same J carrying Semitic tribes.

We desperately need ancient DNA from the Green Sahara, the Southern Levante and Southern Arabia, from around the Persian Gulf and Egypt with the Red Sea coast of Africa.

[Qrts]

Keep in mind the 2019 paper was before the Yemenite, Syrian and Saudi D0 individuals popped up. If I'm not mistaken there's also a Qatari 'CT' who is possibly D0. That said, an East African or Egyptian geographic origin for E seems to make the most sense.

[rmstevens2]

It often feels like people are going in circles discussing the origin of haplogroup E, as well as its connection to the Afro-Asiatic language family. It is a popular topic, after all, as well as one that would be helped by more research. These questions were asked quite often on Anthrogenica, and the archives are available on Genoplot, so everyone is free to search there. Unfortunately, it also seems like many of the users who were more knowledgeable about this topic have not yet found their way to this site.

Here's one of the old threads which discussed this:
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...asiatic/14

There are at present three scenarios to explain the distribution of HGs D and E in Africans and Eurasians, the first two involving back-migration and the last requiring none. The authors of the paper below here favour the third scenario.

"Considering both the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic structure incorporating the D0 lineage, and published evidence for modern humans outside Africa, the most favored model involves an origin of the DE lineage within Africa with D0 and E remaining there, and migration out of the three lineages (C, D, and FT) that now form the vast majority of non-African Y chromosomes" (Haber et al., 2019).

The paper is available at: https://doi.org/10.1534/genetics.119.302368

We need more ancient DNA samples from Africa in any case.

Do you know of any papers that advance either or both of those first two scenarios?

I've just done a basic, quick search and found a range of papers on the topic at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE. There are multiple papers that I saw which supported an Asian origin (Altheide and Hammer, 1997; Hammer et al., 1998; Bravi et al., 2000; Cabrera et al., 2018) for DE*, and they happen to have been published prior to the paper that I linked before (Haber et al., 2019). There are also other papers which support an African origin instead. Feel free to read all of those papers, search for more even, and see which hypothesis you think is best supported by the evidence available to us now . I still think we need more ancient samples to have a better understanding.

Sorry to have put you out. I don't think I feel enthusiastic enough on this topic to do all that.

I do agree we need more ancient samples. That's true for all haplogroups though.

[Qrts]

Laying out a curious observation.

E-M75's (E2) West African descendant, E-M98, split c. 17 kya. Interestingly, this also coincides with E-M2's TMRCA circa 17 kya and its main descendant E-M4901 (c. 16 kya). E-M215's (E1b1b) TMRCA though seems a bit older at 35 kya and its diversification is a bit different. There's a specific sample that stands out however, a Fulani who is E-V2729*, which split c. 17 kya at the same time as E-M98 and E-M2.

~17 kya is roughly two to three thousand years prior the E-L539*/E-M78* Taforalt samples we have, but these individuals are an earlier expansion from further east c. 21 kya.

If we presume E was still in Egypt/Ethiopia at the time, a scenario where Iberomaurusians may have acted as a vector for various E subclades further west doesn't seem that far fetched, especially considering the Green Saharan input in West Africans.

[Capsian20]

Laying out a curious observation.

E-M75's (E2) West African descendant, E-M98, split c. 17 kya. Interestingly, this also coincides with E-M2's TMRCA circa 17 kya and its main descendant E-M4901 (c. 16 kya). E-M215's (E1b1b) TMRCA though seems a bit older at 35 kya and its diversification is a bit different. There's a specific sample that stands out however, a Fulani who is E-V2729*, which split c. 17 kya at the same time as E-M98 and E-M2.

~17 kya is roughly two to three thousand years prior the E-L539*/E-M78* Taforalt samples we have, but these individuals are an earlier expansion from further east c. 21 kya.

If we presume E was still in Egypt/Ethiopia at the time, a scenario where Iberomaurusians may have acted as a vector for various E subclades further west doesn't seem that far fetched, especially considering the Green Saharan input in West Africans.

I dont think this because Haplogroup E-M2 and E-M75 and E-M132 their have different history but i believe Iberomaurusian are  as a vector for various subclass Hg E-M35
Although E-M75 is spread more is south Horn Africa not west Africa
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-M75/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M75/

[Capsian20]

This paragraph about Y-DNA E-M33 in ancient samples Guanches Amazigh ( Berber)
E-M33 <M44
   
link
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/...afXEEW5zsU

[Tora_sama]

https://nplus1.ru/news/2024/01/11/genome...al-burials
E1b-V13 Berlin mideval.

[Capsian20]

https://nplus1.ru/news/2024/01/11/genome...al-burials
E1b-V13 Berlin mideval.

Thanks you for sharing , i see in Y-STR predictor maybe he is belong a subclade E-S7461