Map of ancient DE samples

[Southpaw]

I must confess to a lot ignorance when it comes to Y-DNA haplogroup E. So, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have a basic question. What is the current consensus on the origin of E?

Horn Africa

That's kind of surprising to me. I figured E was of Eurasian origin, particular given the fact that it and D-F974 are brother clades under DE-M145. 

I just kind of assumed (I know, dangerous) that the E clades in Africa represented back migrations that occurred at various times and that the only native African Y-DNA haplogroups are A and B. 

If E-M96 was born in the Horn of Africa, that means DE-M145 must have been there. How then did D-F974 and its offspring end up where they did, far to the east?

I think Y-DNA E should be African, so East Africa makes sense to me as well. It's just that it has deeper autosomal ancestries acquired through Shum Laka(Y-dna A000, yeah newly discovered even deeper root) and Pygmies(Y-DNA B) also Bushmen to South (Y-DNA A).

[Capsian20]

Anway in actually origin Haplogroup DE and E is still ambiguous but is likely this Haplogroup is formed a Horn Africa because isn't there any sample ancient belong a Haplogroup E example back a 33.000 B.C like Haplogroup C and F

[rmstevens2]

I must confess to a lot ignorance when it comes to Y-DNA haplogroup E. So, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have a basic question. What is the current consensus on the origin of E?

Horn Africa

That's kind of surprising to me. I figured E was of Eurasian origin, particular given the fact that it and D-F974 are brother clades under DE-M145. 

I just kind of assumed (I know, dangerous) that the E clades in Africa represented back migrations that occurred at various times and that the only native African Y-DNA haplogroups are A and B. 

If E-M96 was born in the Horn of Africa, that means DE-M145 must have been there. How then did D-F974 and its offspring end up where they did, far to the east?

I think Y-DNA E should be African, so East Africa makes sense to me as well. It's just that it has deeper autosomal ancestries acquired through Shum Laka(Y-dna A000, yeah newly discovered even deeper root) and Pygmies(Y-DNA B) also Bushmen to South (Y-DNA A).

Curious! So, DE-M145 would have had to have been in Africa at that time. Is the idea that D-F974 was born in Africa, as well?

D must have hightailed it out to East Asia pretty soon thereafter. Look at the ancient D-F974 samples in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections. I realize the oldest of them is Neolithic and not Paleolithic, but still, look where they are. None of them is African or even Near Eastern.

[Southpaw]

I must confess to a lot ignorance when it comes to Y-DNA haplogroup E. So, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have a basic question. What is the current consensus on the origin of E?

Horn Africa

That's kind of surprising to me. I figured E was of Eurasian origin, particular given the fact that it and D-F974 are brother clades under DE-M145. 

I just kind of assumed (I know, dangerous) that the E clades in Africa represented back migrations that occurred at various times and that the only native African Y-DNA haplogroups are A and B. 

If E-M96 was born in the Horn of Africa, that means DE-M145 must have been there. How then did D-F974 and its offspring end up where they did, far to the east?

I think Y-DNA E should be African, so East Africa makes sense to me as well. It's just that it has deeper autosomal ancestries acquired through Shum Laka(Y-dna A000, yeah newly discovered even deeper root) and Pygmies(Y-DNA B) also Bushmen to South (Y-DNA A).

Curious! So, DE-M145 would have had to have been in Africa at that time. Is the idea that D-F974 was born in Africa, as well?

D must have hightailed it out to East Asia pretty soon thereafter. Look at the ancient D-F974 samples in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections. I realize the oldest of them is Neolithic and not Paleolithic, but still, look where they are. None of them is African or even Near Eastern.

I don't know man, the deepest i was interested was in E-M35.

If i have to guess is that Y-DNA C, F, D left North Africa likely not too far timewise from each other. But if Y-DNA E so deep was an Eurasian one, it might be, but i put my bet on East Africa more. It's 65-80k old timeline we are talking, so hard to guess.

[rmstevens2]

Horn Africa

That's kind of surprising to me. I figured E was of Eurasian origin, particular given the fact that it and D-F974 are brother clades under DE-M145. 

I just kind of assumed (I know, dangerous) that the E clades in Africa represented back migrations that occurred at various times and that the only native African Y-DNA haplogroups are A and B. 

If E-M96 was born in the Horn of Africa, that means DE-M145 must have been there. How then did D-F974 and its offspring end up where they did, far to the east?

I think Y-DNA E should be African, so East Africa makes sense to me as well. It's just that it has deeper autosomal ancestries acquired through Shum Laka(Y-dna A000, yeah newly discovered even deeper root) and Pygmies(Y-DNA B) also Bushmen to South (Y-DNA A).

Curious! So, DE-M145 would have had to have been in Africa at that time. Is the idea that D-F974 was born in Africa, as well?

D must have hightailed it out to East Asia pretty soon thereafter. Look at the ancient D-F974 samples in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections. I realize the oldest of them is Neolithic and not Paleolithic, but still, look where they are. None of them is African or even Near Eastern.

I don't know man, the deepest i was interested was in E-M35.

If i have to guess is that Y-DNA C, F, D left North Africa likely not too far timewise from each other. But if Y-DNA E so deep was an Eurasian one, it might be, but i put my bet on East Africa more. It's 65-80k old timeline we are talking, so hard to guess.

I don't know either, but if you look at the other really old offspring of CT-M168 (the father of DE-M145 and CF-P143) they're all Eurasian, not African. It doesn't seem likely that C or F came out of Africa, not given the oldest ancient samples we know about.

[rmstevens2]

I don't want to sound like I'm arguing. Actually I'm just trying to learn. But if one looks at the very oldest C and F, some of them seriously old, they're Eurasian, and then you have the oldest D samples - admittedly not older than the Neolithic - out in East Asia.

With everybody else from the CT-M168 neighborhood, including D, apparently Eurasian, it seems odd that DE-M145 would have been in the Horn of Africa for the birth of E-M96.

Stranger things have happened, I guess, and only a very narrow strait separates the Horn of Africa from Yemen and Eurasia. Still, I wonder if E-M96 wasn't born someplace a little farther east, well into Eurasia.

[Riverman]

I must confess to a lot of ignorance when it comes to Y-DNA haplogroup E. So, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have a basic question. What is the current consensus on the origin of E?

As far as I'm concerned, there is no definite consensus on the origin of haplogroup E, just different models and hypotheses. The most common ones include North East Africa (Egypt), the Southern Levante-Arabia and East Africa (Horn).

But nobody can really tell at this point and what we really need is pre-Natufian DNA from the abovementioned regions. In my personal opinion Southern Arabia is the most likely contender, but then again, without more ancient DNA samples, we're still in the dark.

An option I consider likely is that there was for some branches forth and back migration between Egypt and the Southern Levante-Arabia. E in general and E1b1b in particular being in my opinion associated with Basal Eurasian ancestry.

[Capsian20]

I must confess to a lot of ignorance when it comes to Y-DNA haplogroup E. So, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have a basic question. What is the current consensus on the origin of E?

As far as I'm concerned, there is no definite consensus on the origin of haplogroup E, just different models and hypotheses. The most common ones include North East Africa (Egypt), the Southern Levante-Arabia and East Africa (Horn).

But nobody can really tell at this point and what we really need is pre-Natufian DNA from the abovementioned regions. In my personal opinion Southern Arabia is the most likely contender, but then again, without more ancient DNA samples, we're still in the dark.

An option I consider likely is that there was for some branches forth and back migration between Egypt and the Southern Levante-Arabia. E in general and E1b1b in particular being in my opinion associated with Basal Eurasian ancestry.

E1b1b ( E-M215) I don't think is Basal Eurasian ancestry , anyway i believe Haplogroup E-M35 is formed in Egypt

[Capsian20]

I don't want to sound like I'm arguing. Actually I'm just trying to learn. But if one looks at the very oldest C and F, some of them seriously old, they're Eurasian, and then you have the oldest D samples - admittedly not older than the Neolithic - out in East Asia.

With everybody else from the CT-M168 neighborhood, including D, apparently Eurasian, it seems odd that DE-M145 would have been in the Horn of Africa for the birth of E-M96.

Stranger things have happened, I guess, and only a very narrow strait separates the Horn of Africa from Yemen and Eurasia. Still, I wonder if E-M96 wasn't born someplace a little farther east, well into Eurasia.

Well actually origin Haplogroup DE is still ambiguous 

[Riverman]

I must confess to a lot of ignorance when it comes to Y-DNA haplogroup E. So, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have a basic question. What is the current consensus on the origin of E?

As far as I'm concerned, there is no definite consensus on the origin of haplogroup E, just different models and hypotheses. The most common ones include North East Africa (Egypt), the Southern Levante-Arabia and East Africa (Horn).

But nobody can really tell at this point and what we really need is pre-Natufian DNA from the abovementioned regions. In my personal opinion Southern Arabia is the most likely contender, but then again, without more ancient DNA samples, we're still in the dark.

An option I consider likely is that there was for some branches forth and back migration between Egypt and the Southern Levante-Arabia. E in general and E1b1b in particular being in my opinion associated with Basal Eurasian ancestry.

E1b1b ( E-M215) I don't think is Basal Eurasian ancestry , anyway i believe Haplogroup E-M35 is formed in Egypt

The strongest correlation is with Basal Eurasian ancestry, but this could be due to secondary events also, therefore we need actual, hard evidence, from ancient DNA to really know.

[rmstevens2]

I'm still pretty ignorant when it comes to the origin of E-M96, but from what I can see of the ancient Y-DNA evidence from the nearest relatives of E-M96, who are all Eurasian, I am leaning toward a Eurasian origin for E-M96, probably someplace in the Near East.

Let's hope some really old E-M96 remains are found someplace that clear things up.

[Southpaw]

There is still a lot of unknowns regarding of what is Basal Eurasian.

I think Y-DNA E has no connection to Basal Eurasian primarily, but to ANA for the sheer fact that the Iranian Farmer scores more Basal Eurasian than the Natufians, and the Natufian scores some ANA, so it's telling that the autosomal we are looking for should be ANA.

My two cents here.

[rmstevens2]

There is still a lot of unknowns regarding of what is Basal Eurasian.

I think Y-DNA E has no connection to Basal Eurasian primarily, but to ANA for the sheer fact that the Iranian Farmer scores more Basal Eurasian than the Natufians, and the Natufian scores some ANA, so it's telling that the autosomal we are looking for should be ANA.

My two cents here.

That could just be down to proximity. The Natufians were closer to North Africa than the Iranians were. The presence of some ANA in them should be no surprise and might have nothing to do with the origin of E-M96. And once E-M96 got into Africa, if it actually had to go into Africa and wasn't born there, just naturally its men would pick up a lot of ANA through admixture with native Africans.

It seems to me you have to look at the ancient Y-DNA phylogenetic neighbors of E-M96 and see where they were.

But of course, you could be right, and that is something to take into consideration.

[Riverman]

There is still a lot of unknowns regarding of what is Basal Eurasian.

I think Y-DNA E has no connection to Basal Eurasian primarily, but to ANA for the sheer fact that the Iranian Farmer scores more Basal Eurasian than the Natufians, and the Natufian scores some ANA, so it's telling that the autosomal we are looking for should be ANA.

My two cents here.

That could just be down to proximity. The Natufians were closer to North Africa than the Iranians were. The presence of some ANA in them should be no surprise and might have nothing to do with the origin of E-M96. And once E-M96 got into Africa, if it actually had to go into Africa and wasn't born there, just naturally its men would pick up a lot of ANA through admixture with native Africans.

It seems to me you have to look at the ancient Y-DNA phylogenetic neighbors of E-M96 and see where they were.

But of course, you could be right, and that is something to take into consideration.

Their Basal Eurasian wasn't down due to African/ANA influences, but due to a strong more European HG influence they got, apparently from the female side mostly. Therefore they had three components:
- Basal Eurasian
- Anatolian HG
- very little, potentially, ANA

There is no reason to assume that the smallest of the three components had to bring in all the patrilineages. I mean its possible, it is surely remotely possible, but that's not the most parsimonious model.

The reason for the Iranians having so much Basal Eurasian seems to be that the Persian Gulf region was part of the Basal Eurasian zone. That doesn't mean, however, that this was where Basal Eurasian was living all the time or was most common in the earlier periods.

We have, so far, no samples from Arabia, from the regions which are most likely to have been the core Basal Eurasian homelands.

The Natufians look like a stream of people coming from two main sources, Anatolia (Anatolian HG) and Basal Eurasian (I would also call them Arabian HG). In the Southern Levante the mix could have met with some people which got ANA-related ancestry, from Egypt. But again, there is no reason to assume that the smallest component brought all the male lineages.

Not impossible, but surely not most likely. And again, the main reason for Natufians having less Basal Eurasian is that they got so much Anatolian HG ancestry. Which is also why they are so close to Southern Europeans, relatively speaking.

[rmstevens2]

Fun and interesting discussion, folks! I'm enjoying it.

In case you're wondering why I stuck my nose into this thread, one of my second great grandfathers on my dad's side (the father of one of my great grandmothers) was E-V13, so, naturally, I'm curious about it. I wish some of my cousins on that line would do the Big Y-700, because for now E-V13 is as far as they've gone.

I believe Riverman is already aware that my Holmes second great grandfather was E-V13, because we discussed him in another thread. The MDKA on that line was born in Northern Ireland.