Haplogroup V is EEF or WHG?

[JonikW]

Among ancient samples the oldest HV0 are:
VINK3 from Croatia 5600 BC
PEN001 from France 5400 BC

The oldest V are:
VINJ3, VINJ4 from Croatia 5600 BC
BAM06 from Hungary 5585 BC
I0413, Troc13 from Spain 5190 BC

According to this, their TMRCA is not far from 6000 BC.
It is hard to expect to find many samples older than 6000 BC belonging to HV0 and V.

I wonder why YFull don't tweak their methodology given we already have samples that predate their estimated TMRCA by a long way.

My very tentative idea is that V emerged from what had previously been the Balkan refugium (I used to think Spain was more likely). That might explain a small Mesolithic spread including Cnoc Coig as well as a later and more obvious dispersal in the Neolithic.

One thing I would like to see is a study that identifies the rough timeframe that V reached the ancestors of the Saami. Allentoft had a good number of Mesolithic and Neolithic samples in the Eurasia paper but missed whatever the right geographical areas must be and so shed no light on V and the Saami.

[ph2ter]

The divergence time for the Sami haplogroup V sequences is estimated by M. Ingman and U. Gyllensten at 7,600 years ago which is exactly 5600 BC when we found the earliest HV0 and V samples.

This is taken from the old study of Tambets and all from 2004:
Schematic reconstruction of possible entry routes of the predominant Saami maternal (A) ... lineages to Fennoscandia. Broken lines indicate that the exact place of origin/route of spread of the haplogroup is unsolved/not indicated:

[ph2ter]

Some other calculations from De Fanti and all from 2014:

[Capsian20]

Some other calculations from De Fanti and all from 2014:

 Do you post here link 
Thanks you

[Capsian20]

Target: FRA_EN_PENEN001_real1__BC_5411__Cov_80.35%
Distance: 3.7374% / 0.03737377
77.4 Early_European_Farmer
22.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Iberia_N:I0413__BC_5193__Cov_61.06%
Distance: 4.6314% / 0.04631384
87.8 Early_European_Farmer
12.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

[ph2ter]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26640946/

[Quint]

Saami do have Corded Ware ancestry.

V7 has an interesting distribution. As for the V7a in Finns and Saami (and Maris, apparently), I think it comes from Funnelbeaker, probably mediated by CWC.

V7 was also found in a Maikop sample in the North Caucasus, I'm not sure where that comes from.

What comes to mind is a possible link to the eastward spread of the megalithic tradition across Europe.

In any case, it looks to me like V originated among EEF and then further diversified in Western Europe before it migrated eastward.

[Capsian20]

Saami do have Corded Ware ancestry.
V7 has an interesting distribution. As for the V7a in Finns and Saami (and Maris, apparently), I think it comes from Funnelbeaker, probably mediated by CWC.
V7 was also found in a Maikop sample in the North Caucasus, I'm not sure where that comes from.
What comes to mind is a possible link to the eastward spread of the megalithic tradition across Europe.
In any case, it looks to me like V originated among EEF and then further diversified in Western Europe before it migrated eastward.

Yes I see there sample belong a subclade V7 from North Caucasus
is seems to me this comes from Yamnaya there sample from Poland belong a culture Trzciniec ( have subclade subclade V7a and others subclades under V )

This Admixture DNA this samples
Target: POL_poz930:poz930
Distance: 4.0543% / 0.04054344
54.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
24.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
20.2 Early_European_Farmer
1.0 SSA

[Jaska]

The Saami have both V near the root and V7a1 (pages 24-26):
https://www.alkuperasivusto.fi/SaameMTDNA.pdf

V7a1 seems to concentrate in the Saami, Finnish, and Danish populations. V7a is found in many Slavic populations.

[ph2ter]

The Saami have both V near the root and V7a1 (pages 24-26):
https://www.alkuperasivusto.fi/SaameMTDNA.pdf

V7a1 seems to concentrate in the Saami, Finnish, and Danish populations. V7a is found in many Slavic populations.

The map in this work is very like the one I posted before:

[Capsian20]

Haplogroup V is ancient, estimated to be almost 10,000 years old (Behar et al. 2012). The Sámi represent
mostly founder haplotype and its subtypes; many close matches also represent already known subhaplogroups (V1, V2, V3, etc.) that have been left out of the family tree. Subhaplogroup V7a is discussed separately below).
Haplogroup V has been found in ancient DNA since the end of the Stone Age in Spain and Great Britain,
and starting from the Copper Age in Germany (AmtDB). It is also found in Swedish Late Stone Age pit pottery
from the sphere of culture (Malmström et al. 2009: Ajv52).
Haplotype V-16183G, which occurs in Finns (Kymi), Tatars and Koltan Sámi. Kyme's Finnish sample is the only one that is definitely not V1a1a but V-16183G. Instead, the Sami and Tatars
samples could also be V1a1a.

[Capsian20]

I asked ChatGPT ( I Would ask about what culture is related with mtDNA Haplogroup V , is EEF or WHG ?)

this his answer

Haplogroup V in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is associated with European populations. It has been found at higher frequencies in certain European regions, particularly in Scandinavia and parts of the Iberian Peninsula.

The origins of this haplogroup trace back to prehistoric Europe, and it's often associated with populations who were among the early settlers of the region. However, assigning it specifically to either the Early European Farmers (EEF) or
Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHG) exclusively isn't straightforward.

Genetic studies have shown that European populations have a complex ancestry, with contributions from both early farming communities (EEF) and hunter-gatherer groups (WHG). Haplogroup V might be connected to either or both of these ancestral populations, indicating a complex interplay of migrations and intermixing that occurred in ancient Europe.

The story of human migration and settlement is intricate, and while genetics can provide insights, the complete narrative often involves multiple factors such as cultural exchanges, movements, and adaptations over thousands of years.

[Capsian20]

Hello @JonikW , I did G25sim_K12b to sample from Denmark back a 5400 years its half EEF + WHG +Yamnaya

Target: NEO933
Distance: 5.3202% / 0.05320216
67.6 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 WHG
11.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6 MAR_Taforalt

NEO933,0.120991,0.175653,0.051342,-0.015165,0.070476,-0.015821,0.002980,0.015980,0.044751,0.057974,-0.001768,0.008894,-0.016440,-0.012645,0.006501,0.000798,-0.003314,0.000565,0.000460,-0.001383,0.004751,-0.001851,-0.004612,-0.003074,0.001428