Haplogroup V is EEF or WHG?

[Capsian20]

Hello everybody
I'm very confused about what culture is possible it represent mtDNA V
Is Haplogroup EEF or WHG ?

[Capsian20]

Well i have been see ancient samples Haplogroup V its found in many cultures in ancient European
Minoan and bell-beaker and Trzciance ects...

[Capsian20]

Target: POL_Trzciniec_MBA:poz663
Distance: 5.8008% / 0.05800797
55.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
22.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
22.0 Early_European_Farmer
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: POL_poz507:poz507
Distance: 4.6654% / 0.04665363
62.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
23.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
14.2 Early_European_Farmer

Target: POL_Trzciniec_MBA:poz662
Distance: 6.5302% / 0.06530191
50.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
27.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
22.0 Early_European_Farmer

Target: POL_poz930:poz930
Distance: 4.0543% / 0.04054344
54.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
24.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
20.2 Early_European_Farmer
1.0 SSA

Target: Scotland_N:I2636__BC_3447__Cov_73.66%
Distance: 3.5677% / 0.03567654
79.0 Early_European_Farmer
21.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Well is very interesting this samples from Poland have high Yamanya

[JonikW]

Hello everybody
I'm very confused about what culture is possible it represent mtDNA V
Is Haplogroup EEF or WHG ?

I look forward to more evidence, but so far I would say both scenarios are true. On the WHG side, notably we had the British Cnoc Coig Late Mesolithic V sample in "Population Replacement in Early Neolithic Britain", Brace et al, 2019. 

I think the high prevalence among the Saami also suggests a spread during the Mesolithic as highlighted in 2019’s Översti et al “Human mitochondrial DNA lineages in Iron-Age Fennoscandia suggest incipient admixture and eastern introduction of farming-related maternal ancestry”. That paper chose to class V in that region as hunter gatherer: “This is assumed here because of V’s northern distribution and its high prevalence (up to 58%34) among the Saami, the archetypal nomadic population lacking many farmer-associated haplogroups.”

There was also a low coverage V sample that showed only the hunter gatherer component in Coutinho et al’s “The Neolithic Pitted Ware culture foragers were culturally but not genetically influenced by the Battle Axe culture herders.”

We've also seen plenty of V brought with the farmers. I personally suspect that's the majority of V in most parts of Europe today. For example a sample from Gloucestershire in "A high-resolution picture of kinship practices in an Early Neolithic tomb", Fowler et al.

But the paucity of Mesolithic testable remains compared with Neolithic ones means the full picture will probably always be difficult to assess in my view.

[Sephesakueu]

I have never seen a WHG with V mtdna , have you? So yeah it is not WHG.

[SteppesThug]

Sephesakueu:
I have never seen a WHG with V mtdna , have you? So yeah it is not WHG.

Just read the post above you

[Capsian20]

Hello everybody
I'm very confused about what culture is possible it represent mtDNA V
Is Haplogroup EEF or WHG ?

I look forward to more evidence, but so far I would say both scenarios are true. On the WHG side, notably we had the British Cnoc Coig Late Mesolithic V sample in "Population Replacement in Early Neolithic Britain", Brace et al, 2019. 

I think the high prevalence among the Saami also suggests a spread during the Mesolithic as highlighted in 2019’s Översti et al “Human mitochondrial DNA lineages in Iron-Age Fennoscandia suggest incipient admixture and eastern introduction of farming-related maternal ancestry”. That paper chose to class V in that region as hunter gatherer: “This is assumed here because of V’s northern distribution and its high prevalence (up to 58%34) among the Saami, the archetypal nomadic population lacking many farmer-associated haplogroups.”

There was also a low coverage V sample that showed only the hunter gatherer component in Coutinho et al’s “The Neolithic Pitted Ware culture foragers were culturally but not genetically influenced by the Battle Axe culture herders.”

We've also seen plenty of V brought with the farmers. I personally suspect that's the majority of V in most parts of Europe today. For example a sample from Gloucestershire in "A high-resolution picture of kinship practices in an Early Neolithic tomb", Fowler et al.

But the paucity of Mesolithic testable remains compared with Neolithic ones means the full picture will probably always be difficult to assess in my view.

Thanks you @JonikW
Unfortunately we are not lucky in ancient DNA samples Haplogroup V
is seems to me ancestry gggggreat-grandmother to people being a Haplogroup V maybe have live in Eastern-europe ? what do you think ?

[Capsian20]

I have never seen a WHG with V mtdna , have you? So yeah it is not WHG.

I guess only

[Capsian20]

Hello everybody
I'm very confused about what culture is possible it represent mtDNA V
Is Haplogroup EEF or WHG ?

I think the high prevalence among the Saami also suggests a spread during the Mesolithic as highlighted in 2019’s Översti et al “Human mitochondrial DNA lineages in Iron-Age Fennoscandia suggest incipient admixture and eastern introduction of farming-related maternal ancestry”. That paper chose to class V in that region as hunter gatherer: “This is assumed here because of V’s northern distribution and its high prevalence (up to 58%34) among the Saami, the archetypal nomadic population lacking many farmer-associated haplogroups.”

Yes for this ,i guess Haplogroup V is possible too belong a WHG because saami are mostly being a Haplogroup U5 and V
But there many ancient samples belong a Haplogroup U5 in WHG , but Haplogroup V rare in WHG
Thanks again

[ph2ter]

Maybe this question is not the right question because it is a question did the mtDNA haplogroup V exist already in Mesolithic.
For example yfull have its TMRCA 2800 ybp and formed 4000 ybp.
Its mother haplogroup HV0 TMRCA is listed as 10300 ybp.

[JonikW]

Hello everybody
I'm very confused about what culture is possible it represent mtDNA V
Is Haplogroup EEF or WHG ?

I look forward to more evidence, but so far I would say both scenarios are true. On the WHG side, notably we had the British Cnoc Coig Late Mesolithic V sample in "Population Replacement in Early Neolithic Britain", Brace et al, 2019. 

I think the high prevalence among the Saami also suggests a spread during the Mesolithic as highlighted in 2019’s Översti et al “Human mitochondrial DNA lineages in Iron-Age Fennoscandia suggest incipient admixture and eastern introduction of farming-related maternal ancestry”. That paper chose to class V in that region as hunter gatherer: “This is assumed here because of V’s northern distribution and its high prevalence (up to 58%34) among the Saami, the archetypal nomadic population lacking many farmer-associated haplogroups.”

There was also a low coverage V sample that showed only the hunter gatherer component in Coutinho et al’s “The Neolithic Pitted Ware culture foragers were culturally but not genetically influenced by the Battle Axe culture herders.”

We've also seen plenty of V brought with the farmers. I personally suspect that's the majority of V in most parts of Europe today. For example a sample from Gloucestershire in "A high-resolution picture of kinship practices in an Early Neolithic tomb", Fowler et al.

But the paucity of Mesolithic testable remains compared with Neolithic ones means the full picture will probably always be difficult to assess in my view.

Thanks you @JonikW
Unfortunately we are not lucky in ancient DNA samples Haplogroup V
is seems to me ancestry gggggreat-grandmother to people being a Haplogroup V maybe have live in Eastern-europe ? what do you think ?

My honest opinion Capsian is that we still have a lot to learn about V. The evidence so far shows carriers from both WHG and separately EEF population groups. But at least the latest studies are mostly arriving at V rather than the previously typical HV0 (potentially but by no means necessarily V) so I'm hopeful that progress will be made and we'll have a better picture one day.

[JonikW]

Maybe this question is not the right question because it is a question did the mtDNA haplogroup V exist already in Mesolithic.
For example yfull have its TMRCA 2800 ybp and formed 4000 ybp.
Its mother haplogroup HV0 TMRCA is listed as 10300 ybp.

I often wonder about YFull and their dating, especially considering the V samples we already have. 

"Cnoc Coig, Oronsay, [is] one of the few Late Mesolithic sites with human remains known in Britain" (Charlton et al, 2016).

And these are the dates for the Pitted Ware V sample of hunter gatherer ancestry:

Sample ID: ajv52; grave number: 52; Date (cal BCE, 2 sigma): 2,914–2,694. Child, no sex attributed, buried in the typical PWC supine position. Mitochondrial haplogroup: V

See also samples such as this from "Ancient genome-wide DNA from France highlights the complexity of interactions between Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers"; Rivollat et al:

OBN005, (OBN005.A0101; OB 4090-1), Obernai, (Bas-Rhin, France), Neolithic, Date calBCE 2σ (uncalBP): 5007-4847 (6044±25), Mt haplogroup V.

Behar et al had an age estimate for V of about 9,700 ybp. I hope FTDNA starts exploring mtDNA soon because it might help to shed more light.

ADD: I've said before I think it's safe enough to assume at this stage that a TMRCA for modern V lineages somewhere between YFull and Behar is likely where the truth lies.

[Capsian20]

Maybe this question is not the right question because it is a question did the mtDNA haplogroup V exist already in Mesolithic.
For example yfull have its TMRCA 2800 ybp and formed 4000 ybp.
Its mother haplogroup HV0 TMRCA is listed as 10300 ybp.

Good Morning 
Really MTree ( YFULL ) need to corrected age Haplogroup HV and others Haplogroups i remember since 1 year i posted this in group YFULL but nothing change
according study Behar et al 2012b Haplogroup HV0 is formed in 15.000 B.C and HV0a 11.000 B.Cso I believe mtDNA Haplogroup V its formed between 10.000 B.C to 8.000 B.C

[Capsian20]

Maybe this question is not the right question because it is a question did the mtDNA haplogroup V exist already in Mesolithic.
For example yfull have its TMRCA 2800 ybp and formed 4000 ybp.
Its mother haplogroup HV0 TMRCA is listed as 10300 ybp.

I often wonder about YFull and their dating, especially considering the V samples we already have. 

"Cnoc Coig, Oronsay, [is] one of the few Late Mesolithic sites with human remains known in Britain" (Charlton et al, 2016).

And these are the dates for the Pitted Ware V sample of hunter gatherer ancestry:

Sample ID: ajv52; grave number: 52; Date (cal BCE, 2 sigma): 2,914–2,694. Child, no sex attributed, buried in the typical PWC supine position. Mitochondrial haplogroup: V

See also samples such as this from "Ancient genome-wide DNA from France highlights the complexity of interactions between Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers"; Rivollat et al:

OBN005, (OBN005.A0101; OB 4090-1), Obernai, (Bas-Rhin, France), Neolithic, Date calBCE 2σ (uncalBP): 5007-4847 (6044±25), Mt haplogroup V.

Behar et al had an age estimate for V of about 9,700 ybp. I hope FTDNA starts exploring mtDNA soon because it might help to shed more light.

ADD: I've said before I think it's safe enough to assume at this stage that a TMRCA for modern V lineages somewhere between YFull and Behar is likely where the truth lies.

Unfortunately is seems to me FTDNA its interested about Y-DNA more

[ph2ter]

Among ancient samples the oldest HV0 are:
VINK3 from Croatia 5600 BC
PEN001 from France 5400 BC

The oldest V are:
VINJ3, VINJ4 from Croatia 5600 BC
BAM06 from Hungary 5585 BC
I0413, Troc13 from Spain 5190 BC

According to this, their TMRCA is not far from 6000 BC.
It is hard to expect to find many samples older than 6000 BC belonging to HV0 and V.