Tyrol-Trentino, Bavaro/Austrian MA, Rhaeto-Romance (Ladin)

[Riverman]

If they are Retoroman samples from North Italy and Switzerland available for G25? I know they will be user samples not academic.
Interesting how they are similar or not to Tyroleans?

Was my question before as well. Going by the last PCA posted, they plot at the Germanic end of the Italian Trentino cluster and are close to the Germanic minorities of the region.

[ChrisR]

this looks more that the german speaking isolates are intermediate to north italy (veneto/trentino) and tyrol (s-tyrol/tyrol_mix); though projecting it onto West Eurasia PCA (more pulls) that mostly applies to the cimbrians and sauris and lesser to sappada and timau; maybe that also overlaps with the origins of the former being more ambiguous than that of the latter

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using swiss germans as a standin for tyroleans (xsamples)

Yes, the german speaking isolates are shifted more in direction of the Italian speaking North Italian samples. However take into consideration the plotted Average point does not represent the diversity well. When plotting all samples they overlap broadly with Alsace-Germany-Austria and also Trentino-Lombardy-Veneto-Friuli. When plotting all Isolates the PCA becomes unreadable, because they overlap so much. The single Ladin sample has probably the opposite dynamic: pulled in direction Tyrol but still on the border of Trentino samples. All this seems reasonable, with the inability of a PCA to discern often even different continental regions well when their deep ancestral admixture seems similar. I usually find the Europe 1 PCA @ Vahaduo the one plotting the most differences.
PS: I do not trust the Swiss_Italian to plot at a representative location, as I have one Ticino sample which seems in more consistent place.

My West Eurasia PCA Plot (more references)

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For comparison the Europe 1 PCA Plot (more references)

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The two images and more High-Res can be found under https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1...eCzAFmq3Vw

If they are Retoroman samples from North Italy and Switzerland available for G25? I know they will be user samples not academic.
Interesting how they are similar or not to Tyroleans?

I have only one 75% Cortina 25% Rabbi-Malè private sample (K36 sim) which you see plotted as Ladin-SE-n1. I think the diversity in the five Ladin/Dolomites subzones is much higher.
While speculative the position of the Rhaeto-Rumansh people from Grisons (East Swiss) can be estimated.
The ancient study Late Antiquity-Early Middle Ages cemetery in the Eastern Italian Alps (Vinschgau/Venosta) should give very good proxies for those populations as soon as the data is published and G25 values available.

[ChrisR]

BTW: Beside the findings about clustering and shifts I do this mainly to find the most important/informative ancient clusters.
While I think for the rest I have a good situation, the ancient BA/IA Balkans (Dacian and Illyrian) and the Asian incursions into Hungary (Antiq/Medieval) needs improvement.
So far I only have WesternScythian_IA_Ukr as a proxy.
I could not yet find Dacian, Illyrian or Hungarian (or more to the ast) samples which complement my plot as reference for the Tyrol area well. I would like to not totally overlap with the modern references.
Need to study this area better.

[Riverman]

BTW: Beside the findings about clustering and shifts I do this mainly to find the most important/informative ancient clusters.
While I think for the rest I have a good situation, the ancient BA/IA Balkans (Dacian and Illyrian) and the Asian incursions into Hungary (Antiq/Medieval) needs improvement.
So far I only have WesternScythian_IA_Ukr as a proxy.
I could not yet find Dacian, Illyrian or Hungarian (or more to the ast) samples which complement my plot as reference for the Tyrol area well. I would like to not totally overlap with the modern references.
Need to study this area better.

Unfortunately there are no Dacian samples and as far as I know there won't be IA Dacain samples in the near future. However, we might get Bronze Age ancestral samples of core Daco-Thracian people from the Transtisza zone in the next months. And these might have moved with both Urnfield and Basarabi-early Hallstatt as far as to the Alpine region.

[ChrisR]

I mentioned the Late Antiquity-Early Middle Ages cemetery in the Eastern Italian Alps (Vinschgau/Venosta)thread/study where the published raw data seems to create difficulty for interpretation (both Y and admixture).

So far I did not see the following study:
Archaeological questions and genetic answers: Male paternal kinship in a copper age multiple burial from the eastern Italian Alps (Auer/Ora, Unterland/Upper Adige)
Paladin et al Aug. 2023
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jasrep.2023.104103
   
So two Y-DNA G2a2b2a1a1b1 (ISOGG, 2019)
One mtDNA J1c + 16261 + 189 (Ind. A , Mol. ID 3058, son? younger?) G-CTS9737/etc*(xCTS8701,S24652)
One mtDNA K1a (Ind. B, Mol. ID 3059, father? older?) G-Z3205/etc*(xZ6900,Y19947)
genome coverage 0.07 X for Ind. A and 0.34 X for Ind. B
Copper Age (Ind. A: LTL-3607A 4279 ± 45 BP, 3021–2705 cal. BC [95.4%]; Ind. B: LTL-3607A 4268 ± 35 BP, 3008–2707 cal. BC [95.4%]
Four FASTQ files for shotgun and capture generated in this study available at the European Nucleotide Archive (ENA)
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB58428

I will try if I'm able to extract anything mainly regarding Y-DNA/BAM or for atDNA

[ChrisR]

Does anybody monitor (and publish a changelog history) of the Eurogenes Global25_PCA_scaled (ancient) file and is there a ancient Y-DNA list based on YFull or FTDNA SNP-Trees reference available?
While I tried on usegalaxy so far I was not able to extract any Y or atDNA data from the ENA files.

EDIT: since my last download of Global25_PCA_scaled in November it seems 2 Alawite, 3 Saho_Eritrean, 9 Sinhala were added.