Albanian Discussion Thread

[Beast]

Linguist Radu Craciun points out that the ratio of Thracian : Illyrian material in Albanian is 2.5 : 1, meaning 2.5 more Thracian than Illyrian, favouring a Thracian origin for Albanian.

Cherry-picking fringe sources, doesn't change the academic consensus. Nobody - even Matzinger - considers Albanian to be related to Thracian.
.

Amusing, here is Çabej on the undeniable Thracian component in Albanian:

“Në gjuhën shqipe sot kemi edhe gjurmë të ilirishtes, edhe të trakishtes, por më të shumta janë ato të ilirishtes. 

Pra gjuha shqipe është bijë e një dialekti të ilirishtes, por ngërthen në vete edhe disa komponentë të trakishtes.”

Even under such stalinist coniditions whete the state line was that Albanian had to be autochtonous he had to concede that there was a Thracian component in Albanian, whereas you are over and above even the stalinists of the 20th century in your position.

If Albanian in the best case scenario for Illyrianists is an Illyrian language with a Thracian component, then which is the most probable source of this Thracian component in the Albanian haolo branches? Could it be J2b-L283? Maybe it is I1? Hmm

So, what does dava and para mean in Albanian? 

Is it para e beseve or is it bessapara? Seems weird how the structure of a language can change that fast from supposedly settled Daco-Thracians from Romania, one would expect such Daco-Thracians to of kept a key part of their language when even the Bessi did. Also what about Messapic? What relation does it have to Daco-Thracians anymore than it does to Illyrian?

[Beast]

We have 1 sample from Idomenae which happens to be an Ancient Macedonian site E-L618 in modern borders of North Macedonia( South of it), Late Iron Age. Sample has not been deeply tested so we can very likely talk about an E-V13 sample.

Yes, there is one E-L618 there from 300 BCE or so. That's about the only. All evidence shows E-V13 did not become a major lineage there until Roman or post Roman period.
I am willing to change my mind if further evidence shows
otherwise.

[Ushta]

Cherry-picking fringe sources, doesn't change the academic consensus. Nobody - even Matzinger - considers Albanian to be related to Thracian.
.

Amusing, here is Çabej on the undeniable Thracian component in Albanian:

“Në gjuhën shqipe sot kemi edhe gjurmë të ilirishtes, edhe të trakishtes, por më të shumta janë ato të ilirishtes. 

Pra gjuha shqipe është bijë e një dialekti të ilirishtes, por ngërthen në vete edhe disa komponentë të trakishtes.”

Even under such stalinist coniditions whete the state line was that Albanian had to be autochtonous he had to concede that there was a Thracian component in Albanian, whereas you are over and above even the stalinists of the 20th century in your position.

If Albanian in the best case scenario for Illyrianists is an Illyrian language with a Thracian component, then which is the most probable source of this Thracian component in the Albanian haolo branches? Could it be J2b-L283? Maybe it is I1? Hmm

So, what does dava and para mean in Albanian? 

Is it para e beseve or is it bessapara? Seems weird how the structure of a language can change that fast from supposedly settled Daco-Thracians from Romania, one would expect such Daco-Thracians to of kept a key part of their language when even the Bessi did. Also what about Messapic? What relation does it have to Daco-Thracians anymore than it does to Illyrian?

Before claiming that linguistic components in Albanian derived from certain ancient languages, the properties of those languages should be known, otherwise they are only empty and useless assumptions that do not bring progress to research.

Dacian is almost unknown, but for Thracian there are some inscriptions and words, in addition to personal and place names. Based on this material, major unbiased experts on the topic such as Eric Hamp, Victor Friedman, Willem Veermer, Joachim Matzinger, etc. have rejected the close relationship between Albanian and Thracian.

If in academic research a hypothetical linguistic relationship has been already abandoned, why do people keep mentioning it? Today linguists almost unanimously locate the ancient language from which Albanian originated (Proto-Albanian) in the inland areas of the western Balkans. The debate about archaeogentics and archaeology should not stray too far from this widely established notion.

[Moeca]

was not the following accepted ?

The lack of close linguistic relationship of Albanian with Illyrian, the lack
of Proto-Albanian toponymy in Illyria, and the absence of indigenous sea-
faring terminology in the reconstructed language (borrowing corresponding
words from Romance or Greek) make it likely that Albanians were unrelated
to the ancient Illyrians. It has been proposed that they came from further north,
with the settling of Proto-Albanians believed to be in Dacia Ripensis and
farther north, in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains and the
Beskidy/Bieszczady (possibly a toponym of Albanian origin), with the
migration to Illyria via the eastern slopes of the Balkans taking place before
(but not much earlier than) their contact with Romance speakers

The diversity of haplogroups among modern Albanians reflect their
complex ethnogenesis (Peričić et al. 2005; Battaglia et al. 2008): An origin of
the Albanoid homeland close to the north-west Pontic region during the Iron
Age, before their expansion and subsequent Y-DNA bottlenecks, is supported
by the prevalent E1b1b1a1b1-L618

a haplogroup found previously
in Neolithic Hungary and among Scythians of the north-west Pontic area, with
a likely origin in early European farmers; and by hg. R1b1a1b2-M269 (ca. 18–
20%), mainly R1b1a1b1b3a1a1c-Y10789 with Z2705+

after their migration from the Carpathians,
possibly as early as the 7th century BC (Witczak 2016), is to be inferred from
the presence (ca. 11–17%) of J2b2a1-L283 lineages (formed ca. 7700 BC,
TMRCA ca. 3400 BC), proper of Balkan populations; but also possibly from
hg. R1b1a1b2-PF7562 (ca. 5%)

[targaryen]

was not the following accepted ?

The lack of close linguistic relationship of Albanian with Illyrian, the lack
of Proto-Albanian toponymy in Illyria, and the absence of indigenous sea-
faring terminology in the reconstructed language (borrowing corresponding
words from Romance or Greek) make it likely that Albanians were unrelated
to the ancient Illyrians. It has been proposed that they came from further north,
with the settling of Proto-Albanians believed to be in Dacia Ripensis and
farther north, in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains and the
Beskidy/Bieszczady (possibly a toponym of Albanian origin), with the
migration to Illyria via the eastern slopes of the Balkans taking place before
(but not much earlier than) their contact with Romance speakers

The diversity of haplogroups among modern Albanians reflect their
complex ethnogenesis (Peričić et al. 2005; Battaglia et al. 2008): An origin of
the Albanoid homeland close to the north-west Pontic region during the Iron
Age, before their expansion and subsequent Y-DNA bottlenecks, is supported
by the prevalent E1b1b1a1b1-L618

a haplogroup found previously
in Neolithic Hungary and among Scythians of the north-west Pontic area, with
a likely origin in early European farmers; and by hg. R1b1a1b2-M269 (ca. 18–
20%), mainly R1b1a1b1b3a1a1c-Y10789 with Z2705+

after their migration from the Carpathians,
possibly as early as the 7th century BC (Witczak 2016), is to be inferred from
the presence (ca. 11–17%) of J2b2a1-L283 lineages (formed ca. 7700 BC,
TMRCA ca. 3400 BC), proper of Balkan populations; but also possibly from
hg. R1b1a1b2-PF7562 (ca. 5%)

There are countless Illyrian tribes whose names are related to Albanian, Dalmatians, Ulqin, Dimale, Dardania, Taulantii, even Brindisi in Italy. So not sure where you're getting this from.

As for the lack of maritime vocabulary, this is just a nonsense argument when you take a look at a simple map of the ancient Balkans



The Albanian coastline has almost always been dominated by foreign powers, be it Greek, Roman, Ottoman. While Illyrians/Albanians have lived there, they were not permanent settlers. The main Illyrians lived in the hinterland which was almost all mountainous. The "Albanoi" themselves were also an Illyrian tribe.

These arguments are straight up hilarious to me. Modern Albanian is 60% Latin, so what's a few more words about fish or crabs. The word "sky" is also borrowed from Latin, does that mean they lived in a place without a sky? Not to mention that keywords like "sea" and "ship" are native to Albanian.

[Kelmendasi]

The tone of this thread has become increasingly immature and low brow. It is a shame to see that certain users have taken online discussions and debates so personally, it really doesn't take much effort or brainpower to keep a discussion civil and impersonal. There is no reason or need to be offended from online posts and opinions on such a topic. That being said, please lets keep the discussions serious.  

Dacian is almost unknown, but for Thracian there are some inscriptions and words, in addition to personal and place names. Based on this material, major unbiased experts on the topic such as Eric Hamp, Victor Friedman, Willem Veermer, Joachim Matzinger, etc. have rejected the close relationship between Albanian and Thracian.

If in academic research a hypothetical linguistic relationship has been already abandoned, why do people keep mentioning it? Today linguists almost unanimously locate the ancient language from which Albanian originated (Proto-Albanian) in the inland areas of the western Balkans. The debate about archaeogentics and archaeology should not stray too far from this widely established notion.

Indeed. The Thracian origin theory is no longer considered in modern mainstream academia and thus discussing it as if it remains a valid and widely-held position detracts from the discussion of Albanian origins. That is not to say however that we shouldn't consider potential linguistic and genetic inputs from Daco-Thracian groups into Proto-Albanians - it is a given that contacts took place, and so discussing them would be of utility.

[targaryen]

The tone of this thread has become increasingly immature and low brow. It is a shame to see that certain users have taken online discussions and debates so personally, it really doesn't take much effort or brainpower to keep a discussion civil and impersonal. There is no reason or need to be offended from online posts and opinions on such a topic. That being said, please lets keep the discussions serious.  

Dacian is almost unknown, but for Thracian there are some inscriptions and words, in addition to personal and place names. Based on this material, major unbiased experts on the topic such as Eric Hamp, Victor Friedman, Willem Veermer, Joachim Matzinger, etc. have rejected the close relationship between Albanian and Thracian.

If in academic research a hypothetical linguistic relationship has been already abandoned, why do people keep mentioning it? Today linguists almost unanimously locate the ancient language from which Albanian originated (Proto-Albanian) in the inland areas of the western Balkans. The debate about archaeogentics and archaeology should not stray too far from this widely established notion.

Indeed. The Thracian origin theory is no longer considered in modern mainstream academia and thus discussing it as if it remains a valid and widely-held position detracts from the discussion of Albanian origins. That is not to say however that we shouldn't consider potential linguistic and genetic inputs from Daco-Thracian groups into Proto-Albanians - it is a given that contacts took place, and so discussing them would be of utility.

The issue with this is autosomal DNA which overwhemingly shows Albanians are of West Balkan ancestry. In fact, Albanian is perfectly modelled with Illyrians + some East Med/Slavic/Germanic admixtures. The eastern Balkans were very different looking in terms of autosomal DNA, clearly different than Albanians.

As for language, the Thracian inscriptions clearly show Albanian =/= Thracian, and if Daco-Thracian is a singular group, transitively it also means Dacians has little to do with Albanian either. Those -para -dava suffixes are a dead giveaway as well.

[Dreneu]

We'll know where they were when we get data, but in terms of the location of Proto-Albanian, their location in the IA doesn't have much to offer because their MRCAs among Albanians are in Roman antiquity, not earlier.

E-Y146086 has two downstream Albanian subclades, but no upstream Albanian subclades. The downstream ones have MRCAs in 900 CE and 1050 CE.

E-BY4465 has an MRCA around 150 CE.

E-Y173822 has an MRCA around 600 CE.

I'm interested to know where these clades were located, but their location doesn't impact the location of Proto-Albanian because they start to spread in later antiquity, not earlier.

They're important Albanian clades just like J-FGC12816 is an important Albanian clade, but neither has any answer to offer to the question "where was Proto-Albanian spoken during the Iron Age".

Even if E-V13 was just entirely major late add ons with founder effects, it is still clearly relevant to the question of Proto-Albanian and Albanian what language these people spoke before they spoke proto-Albanian.

I.e. did proto-Albanians absorb some chinese speaking E-Y173822? Did they add any new loanwords?

Linguist Radu Craciun points out that the ratio of Thracian : Illyrian material in Albanian is 2.5 : 1, meaning 2.5 more Thracian than Illyrian, favouring a Thracian origin for Albanian.



But hold up, this is so puzzling, because we have no possible candidate for Thracian in Albanian haplogroups according to the champions of Illyria here.

The evidence from this linguist is clear, Albanian must then be closer to Thracian than Illyrian.

The autosomal evidence of recent thracian samples and their varied clusters points to a more layered diversity than yet understood exactly among the Daco-Thracoid groups.

There is evidence that suggests that the Proto-Albanians will be from a Bassarabi or Bassarabi related group / sub group (coming soon..)

Therefore proto-Albanian was most probably a language that had the same origin as Thracian, as its 2.5 : 1 ratio of concurrences compared to Illyrian demonstrates.

[Dreneu]

Even if E-V13 was just entirely major late add ons with founder effects, it is still clearly relevant to the question of Proto-Albanian and Albanian what language these people spoke before they spoke proto-Albanian.

I.e. did proto-Albanians absorb some chinese speaking E-Y173822? Did they add any new loanwords?

Linguist Radu Craciun points out that the ratio of Thracian : Illyrian material in Albanian is 2.5 : 1, meaning 2.5 more Thracian than Illyrian, favouring a Thracian origin for Albanian.



But hold up, this is so puzzling, because we have no possible candidate for Thracian in Albanian haplogroups according to the champions of Illyria here.

The evidence from this linguist is clear, Albanian must then be closer to Thracian than Illyrian.

The autosomal evidence of recent thracian samples and their varied clusters points to a more layered diversity than yet understood exactly among the Daco-Thracoid groups.

There is evidence that suggests that the Proto-Albanians will be from a Bassarabi or Bassarabi related group / sub group (coming soon..)

Therefore proto-Albanian was most probably a language that had the same origin as Thracian, as its 2.5 : 1 ratio of concurrences compared to Illyrian demonstrates.

From this a clear picture emerges, the core proto-Albanian people were a central Balkan group related to the Thracians, maybe the Dardani or Triballi, or a fusion of them alongside other Thracoid tribals who they recognised as their blood. This group moved southwest in the post roman period where they began the albanian ethnogenesis and allowed some local latinised illyrians to learn their language, trade with them, etc.

[Dreneu]

Linguist Radu Craciun points out that the ratio of Thracian : Illyrian material in Albanian is 2.5 : 1, meaning 2.5 more Thracian than Illyrian, favouring a Thracian origin for Albanian.



But hold up, this is so puzzling, because we have no possible candidate for Thracian in Albanian haplogroups according to the champions of Illyria here.

The evidence from this linguist is clear, Albanian must then be closer to Thracian than Illyrian.

The autosomal evidence of recent thracian samples and their varied clusters points to a more layered diversity than yet understood exactly among the Daco-Thracoid groups.

There is evidence that suggests that the Proto-Albanians will be from a Bassarabi or Bassarabi related group / sub group (coming soon..)

Therefore proto-Albanian was most probably a language that had the same origin as Thracian, as its 2.5 : 1 ratio of concurrences compared to Illyrian demonstrates.

From this a clear picture emerges, the core proto-Albanian people were a central Balkan group related to the Thracians, maybe the Dardani or Triballi, or a fusion of them alongside other Thracoid tribals who they recognised as their blood. This group moved southwest in the post roman period where they began the albanian ethnogenesis and allowed some local latinised illyrians to learn their language, trade with them, etc.

This neatly ties up all the loose ends, it explains the illyrian component as well as the larger dominant thracian one [2.5 : 1 ratio] whereas the reverse model is full of holes and loose ends, i.e. post roman albanian accent in albanian toponymy, no pre roman continuity, no proto-albanian topinyms in albania, dalmatian latinity of Albania, and so on and so on. Everything is awkward and forced with the Illyrian model, everything is sleek and smooth with the Thracian model. Rejoice, besa bese, we are thracians!

[Ushta]

Linguists Hamp, Matzinger, Hyllested, Joseph, Friedman, Vermeer, etc. who focused on the history of the Albanian language do not support that Proto-Albanian was a "Thracoid" language. "Thracoid" fantastic theories have nothing to do with mainstream academia.

[Beast]

Albanian is considered related to Messapic and nothing suggests the central Balkans was mainly a Thracoid group. At best, some Thracians penetrated the area in the LBA/EIA and later. Proto-Illyrian, Messapic and whatever other related West Balkan groups clearly preceded the Thracians even in the central Balkans. 

Arguing E-V13 is a steppe haplo that expanded with proto Thracians during the EIA/LBA is admitting Thracian was a relatively late group anyway.

[Ushta]

Albanian is considered related to Messapic and nothing suggests the central Balkans was mainly a Thracoid group. At best, some Thracians penetrated the area in the LBA/EIA and later. Proto-Illyrian/Messapic and whatever other related West Balkan groups clearly preceded the Thracians even in the central Balkans. 

Arguing E-V13 is a steppe haplo that expanded with proto Thracians during the EIA/LBA is admitting Thracian was a relatively late group anyway.

The Dardani have little to do with "Thracoid" pseudolinguistic theories, Dana OnomThrac 2014:

Translation:

"the Illyrian character of Dardanian onomastics is unmistakable and it is appropriate to definitively rule out the idea of a Thracian origin or participation (at least considerable) in their ethnogenesis".

[corrigendum]

Spamming theories which never found wide acceptance and have been debunked doesn't move the discussion forward.

The Viminacium study should also close the debate about the "central Balkans". Albanian was not the IA language of eastern Serbia, maybe it was spoken in Dardania and maybe during the Roman era it spread in the Naissus region.

All E-V13 subclades which have been found in Serbia:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY15397/tree Naissus
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY5022/tree Viminacium 2x, IA Bulgaria 1x
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY4280/tree Jakovo
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY6162/tree Viminacium
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-CTS1357/tree Viminacium

Some samples were low coverage, hence they couldn't receive downstream assignments, but it's likely that many of them would be placed in these lineages. Albanians in known E-V13 subclades from eastern Serbia make up ~0.2-0.4% of total Albanian lineages. These lineages include both Thracian and Illyrian profiles.

Archaeogenetics do agree with the linguistic consensus: Albanian, a language closely linked to Messapic, couldn't have originated in any area close to the eastern Balkans and couldn't be related to Thracian/Dacian.

Albanian is considered related to Messapic and nothing suggests the central Balkans was mainly a Thracoid group. At best, some Thracians penetrated the area in the LBA/EIA and later. Proto-Illyrian/Messapic and whatever other related West Balkan groups clearly preceded the Thracians even in the central Balkans. 

Arguing E-V13 is a steppe haplo that expanded with proto Thracians during the EIA/LBA is admitting Thracian was a relatively late group anyway.

The Dardani have little to do with "Thracoid" pseudolinguistic theories, Dana OnomThrac 2014:

Translation:

"the Illyrian character of Dardanian onomastics is unmistakable and it is appropriate to definitively rule out the idea of a Thracian origin or participation (at least considerable) in their ethnogenesis".

The Çinamak samples are most likely Dardanians, not "Illyrii proprie dicti".

Dardani = J-L283 + R-Z2103 + R-PF7563, just like the Iapygians across the Adriatic.

IMO, we'll get E-V13 among Dardanians because we already have Illyrian E-V13 profiles in the Naissus-Timacum region and this answers how E-V13 became part of Proto-Albanian-speaking groups, although it doesn't have to be so as there are other options as well. The point is that E-V13 clades which are present among Albanians today don't need to have an EIA presence because they don't have such MRCAs. The quicker such concepts about E-V13 subclades are abandoned, the better the discussion will be.

We just need to follow the data, not pre-conceived notions about what the importance of any haplogroup should supposedly be because of lack of knowledge and data 10 years ago made it seem so.

[Beast]

was not the following accepted ?

The lack of close linguistic relationship of Albanian with Illyrian, the lack
of Proto-Albanian toponymy in Illyria, and the absence of indigenous sea-
faring terminology in the reconstructed language (borrowing corresponding
words from Romance or Greek) make it likely that Albanians were unrelated
to the ancient Illyrians. It has been proposed that they came from further north,
with the settling of Proto-Albanians believed to be in Dacia Ripensis and
farther north, in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains and the
Beskidy/Bieszczady (possibly a toponym of Albanian origin), with the
migration to Illyria via the eastern slopes of the Balkans taking place before
(but not much earlier than) their contact with Romance speakers

The diversity of haplogroups among modern Albanians reflect their
complex ethnogenesis (Peričić et al. 2005; Battaglia et al. 2008): An origin of
the Albanoid homeland close to the north-west Pontic region during the Iron
Age, before their expansion and subsequent Y-DNA bottlenecks, is supported
by the prevalent E1b1b1a1b1-L618

a haplogroup found previously
in Neolithic Hungary and among Scythians of the north-west Pontic area, with
a likely origin in early European farmers; and by hg. R1b1a1b2-M269 (ca. 18–
20%), mainly R1b1a1b1b3a1a1c-Y10789 with Z2705+

after their migration from the Carpathians,
possibly as early as the 7th century BC (Witczak 2016), is to be inferred from
the presence (ca. 11–17%) of J2b2a1-L283 lineages (formed ca. 7700 BC,
TMRCA ca. 3400 BC), proper of Balkan populations; but also possibly from
hg. R1b1a1b2-PF7562 (ca. 5%)

There is no general consensus that has accepted these theories. Actually it is considered to be related to Illyrian and Messapic, claiming lack of relation is rather funny when it is believed to be related to Messapic. The arguments i presented indicate Albanian is not a daco thracian language. E-V13 is a lineage found all across the Balkans. It is even 20%-30% in Greece that doesnt mean Greek is a language that came from the Carpathians. Ancient Greek loanwords suggest a close and early contact with Greeks. As do Latin loan words suggest earliest contact with Romance speakers. And many other aspects from a cultural, linguistic and archaeological point of view suggest a homeland in the West-Central Balkans. Making such a migration impossible. And supposed lack of maritime words, if there even is such, doesnt put the home land in the carpathian mountains when there were also inland tribes. Same thing for the supposed proto Albanian toponymy in Illyria, they are mainly arguments for the areas of coastal Albania and are rather subjective. Provide evidence for the things you posted. Anyone can invent such theories of such supposed migration. Not even Romanian and Aromanian came from there let alone Albanian.

Beskidy is not a proto Albanian toponymy but most likely Indo European and similar word can be found in many indo European languages , there are far more convincing proto Albanian toponyms in Illyria so claiming lack of proto Albanian toponyms in Illyria is rather funny.