Albanian Discussion Thread

[Kelmendasi]

A thread dedicated to the discussion of Albanian genetics, history and other related or relevant subjects. Please lets keep discussions in good faith and avoid the politicisation or personalisation of conversations.

[Kelmendasi]

Some interesting and (seemingly) new samples from the public Rrënjët results map:

1) A sample from the village of Fang (traditionally a settlement of Bulgëri) in Mirdita has tested as E-Z19851>FT129536, the FTDNA equivalent of this clade appearing to be E-Z19851>FT39742>FT130252. This clade branched from Z19851(>FT39742) between ca. 1587-1877 BCE and has a TMRCA of 2700 ybp (ca. 677 BCE) on YFull, while on FTDNA it is estimated that the MRCA lived during the early 1500s CE. This is due to the fact that on YFull this branch is only represented by a single German sample (with origins from Rhineland-Palatinate), while on FTDNA there are two Germans under this branch. From what I have gathered at least one of these Germans is of Volga German background - albeit with paternal roots from Nierstein in Rhineland-Palatinate during the 1700s CE. The distribution of this branch and upstream FT39742 makes its presence among Albanians interesting, as FT39742 branches have a western distribution: being present in Germany (E-FT130252 and E-FT40470), Austria (E-FT40470), England (E-BY4788), the USA and also Italy (E-BY183947). This also increases the diversity of E-Z19851 subclades, other branches found among Albanians being under: E-A18833 (such as in the case of the Shoshi and Bobi tribes) and some uncertain, possibly, basal branches found around Sukth and Radomirë. 

2) Y-DNA haplogroup Q-YP789 has been identified in a sample from the village of Polis, located just north-east of Elbasan. This branch has been identified in a number of aDNA samples ranging from the third and seventeenth centuries CE. The earliest samples date to the third century CE (ca. 254-409 CE) and were from the Berel kurgans in eastern Kazakhstan. Judging from their patrilineage, autosomal profiles, and archaeological/historical contexts these Q-YP789 samples from Berel appear to have been of Hunnic origin. Q-YP789 then appears in multiple Avar samples ranging from the sixth to tenth centuries CE, given the Hunnic association of YP789 and upstream L713, it is possible that these Avars were themselves of Hunnic extraction. In a Balkan context, Q-YP789 appears in a Bulgar sample from around Veliko Tarnovo and is dated to between 889-989 CE. As such, it would be interesting for this Albanian sample to do further testing or upload to either YFull or FTDNA, as it would narrow down when exactly this specific branch arrived in the Albania; be that with earlier Hunnic or Avar migrations/raids, or later with the expansions of the Bulgarian empires. It is also interesting to note that there a now at least three Y-DNA haplogroups that can be confidently associated with the Huns confirmed among modern Albanians: Q-YP789, R1b-Y84684, and R1a-Y155382.

3) A sample from the village of Isniq in western Kosovo has been confirmed as I2a-FT20796. This is interesting as this sample claims tribal origin from the Shala of northern Albania who are in fact R1b-FT25059, thus debunking a direct origin from the tribe. Furthermore, there are a number of samples from Sandžak who also claim descent from branches of Shala that migrated to western Kosovo (Rugova in this case) but are in fact I2a-FT14506 - and thus unrelated to the Shala of Isniq and true Shala, although they could possibly be related to a Shaljan from Deçan who is classified only as I2a-PH908. It is also of interest to note that the famous Kosovo Albanian revolutionary Isa Boletini traced his paternal roots to the Shala of Isniq, his family migrating to Shala e Bajgorës during the 1700s as a result of blood feuds. Thus, there is a possibility that Boletini was himself I2a-FT20796, although this would have to be confirmed with actual testing of a male relative.

[okshtunas]

Some interesting and (seemingly) new samples from the public Rrënjët results map:

1) A sample from the village of Fang (traditionally a settlement of Bulgëri) in Mirdita has tested as E-Z19851>FT129536, the FTDNA equivalent of this clade appearing to be E-Z19851>FT39742>FT130252. This clade branched from Z19851(>FT39742) between ca. 1587-1877 BCE and has a TMRCA of 2700 ybp (ca. 677 BCE) on YFull, while on FTDNA it is estimated that the MRCA lived during the early 1500s CE. This is due to the fact that on YFull this branch is only represented by a single German sample (with origins from Rhineland-Palatinate), while on FTDNA there are two Germans under this branch. From what I have gathered at least one of these Germans is of Volga German background - albeit with paternal roots from Nierstein in Rhineland-Palatinate during the 1700s CE. The distribution of this branch and upstream FT39742 makes its presence among Albanians interesting, as FT39742 branches have a western distribution: being present in Germany (E-FT130252 and E-FT40470), Austria (E-FT40470), England (E-BY4788), the USA and also Italy (E-BY183947). This also increases the diversity of E-Z19851 subclades, other branches found among Albanians being under: E-A18833 (such as in the case of the Shoshi and Bobi tribes) and some uncertain, possibly, basal branches found around Sukth and Radomirë. 

2) Y-DNA haplogroup Q-YP789 has been identified in a sample from the village of Polis, located just north-east of Elbasan. This branch has been identified in a number of aDNA samples ranging from the third and seventeenth centuries CE. The earliest samples date to the third century CE (ca. 254-409 CE) and were from the Berel kurgans in eastern Kazakhstan. Judging from their patrilineage, autosomal profiles, and archaeological/historical contexts these Q-YP789 samples from Berel appear to have been of Hunnic origin. Q-YP789 then appears in multiple Avar samples ranging from the sixth to tenth centuries CE, given the Hunnic association of YP789 and upstream L713, it is possible that these Avars were themselves of Hunnic extraction. In a Balkan context, Q-YP789 appears in a Bulgar sample from around Veliko Tarnovo and is dated to between 889-989 CE. As such, it would be interesting for this Albanian sample to do further testing or upload to either YFull or FTDNA, as it would narrow down when exactly this specific branch arrived in the Albania; be that with earlier Hunnic or Avar migrations/raids, or later with the expansions of the Bulgarian empires. It is also interesting to note that there a now at least three Y-DNA haplogroups that can be confidently associated with the Huns confirmed among modern Albanians: Q-YP789, R1b-Y84684, and R1a-Y155382.

3) A sample from the village of Isniq in western Kosovo has been confirmed as I2a-FT20796. This is interesting as this sample claims tribal origin from the Shala of northern Albania who are in fact R1b-FT25059, thus debunking a direct origin from the tribe. Furthermore, there are a number of samples from Sandžak who also claim descent from branches of Shala that migrated to western Kosovo (Rugova in this case) but are in fact I2a-FT14506 - and thus unrelated to the Shala of Isniq and true Shala, although they could possibly be related to a Shaljan from Deçan who is classified only as I2a-PH908. It is also of interest to note that the famous Kosovo Albanian revolutionary Isa Boletini traced his paternal roots to the Shala of Isniq, his family migrating to Shala e Bajgorës during the 1700s as a result of blood feuds. Thus, there is a possibility that Boletini was himself I2a-FT20796, although this would have to be confirmed with actual testing of a male relative.

Recently Rrenjet has tested the Çoku of Kllobçisht, Diber who are confirmed R1a-L1029>Y133367. The Çoku family was one of the main ruling families in Dibër during the Ottoman period, originating from the village of Kllobçisht. From this family came prominent patriots of the National Renaissance period, such as Iljaz Pashë Çoku (Dibra). What's interesting is that Çoku claim descent from the noble House of Gropa. If true, it would most likely mean all those under Y133360 descend from Gropa. Though this remains unconfirmed.

[Gogoli]

Any possibility that Grude Albanians are of paternal Slavic origin (specifically the E-V13 Grude)?

This is certainly far out there, but I only bring this up because around 1500-1600 there was a flock of people from Herzegovina who moved to the modern-day tribal territory of Grude, Montenegro. There is even the same toponym 'Grude' in Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grude

It's likely Grude is a word of Slavic origin that was borrowed into Albanian, but I am uncertain as to whether some of the E-V13 Grudjans may have been the ones who came from Herzegovina and therefore possibly had an original paternal ancestor who was Slavic which explains how Albanians received the word. But then you have the traditional accounts of Grud Suma, etc..

I myself am of supposed Grude origin as a Shestani Albanian and I'm also E-V13 (dege unknown).

[Southpaw]

Any possibility that Grude Albanians are of paternal Slavic origin (specifically the E-V13 Grude)?

This is certainly far out there, but I only bring this up because around 1500-1600 there was a flock of people from Herzegovina who moved to the modern-day tribal territory of Grude, Montenegro. There is even the same toponym 'Grude' in Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grude

It's likely Grude is a word of Slavic origin that was borrowed into Albanian, but I am uncertain as to whether some of the E-V13 Grudjans may have been the ones who came from Herzegovina and therefore possibly had an original paternal ancestor who was Slavic which explains how Albanians received the word. But then you have the traditional accounts of Grud Suma, etc..

I myself am of supposed Grude origin as a Shestani Albanian and I'm also E-V13 (dege unknown).

The sole E-V13 Grude looks like he is E-V13 S2979 BY168279 which seems to be the lineage Kuqi tribe carries, Z5018 and S2979 is like very diverse among Albanians and quite stable from Ghegs to the north to Tosks to the South like Labs who carry rare Z5018 and specific S2979-FGC11450 mutation.

It's not uncommon among Albanian tribes/families to carry Slavic toponyms as family names, adopted over the time, like Krasniqi, Hoti, Toplana, and potentially Sopi. None of families/tribes is Slavic in origin.

[Kelmendasi]

Any possibility that Grude Albanians are of paternal Slavic origin (specifically the E-V13 Grude)?

This is certainly far out there, but I only bring this up because around 1500-1600 there was a flock of people from Herzegovina who moved to the modern-day tribal territory of Grude, Montenegro. There is even the same toponym 'Grude' in Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grude

It's likely Grude is a word of Slavic origin that was borrowed into Albanian, but I am uncertain as to whether some of the E-V13 Grudjans may have been the ones who came from Herzegovina and therefore possibly had an original paternal ancestor who was Slavic which explains how Albanians received the word. But then you have the traditional accounts of Grud Suma, etc..

I myself am of supposed Grude origin as a Shestani Albanian and I'm also E-V13 (dege unknown).

There is no evidence to suggest any paternal Slavic input in Gruda. The claim that there was a migration from Herzegovina during the 1500s or 1600s is based on questionable and clearly erroneous claims by writers such as Edith Durham. The Gruda appear as a community in the region during the 1400s and were most certainly Albanian-speakers judging from the recorded anthroponymy. The tribe would later crystalise following the incorporation of other Albanian fise such as the Tuzi and Suma. 

In the actual oral traditions of the tribe Herzegovina is never mentioned, the core of the tribe believe that they came from Suma in northern Albania and will claim as much if you were to ask them today.

Regarding the E-V13 in Gruda, I do know that one brotherhood tested as E-BY168279 under which belong neighbouring tribes such as the Trieshi and Kuči. In this context, this is without a doubt an Albanian branch that appears to have arrived from around north-central Albania based on current phylogeny and distribution. I think there is also a possibility that some E-V13 in Gruda could be E-PH2180 based on some results from Tuzi, although those brotherhoods do not appear to belong to the core brotherhoods of Gruda. Anyhow, they too arrived from northern Albania. 

So far the E-V13 in Shestani appears to be E-FT184022, though of course we will not know for sure which branch you belong to without further testing. 

[Beast]

Some interesting and (seemingly) new samples from the public Rrënjët results map:

1) A sample from the village of Fang (traditionally a settlement of Bulgëri) in Mirdita has tested as E-Z19851>FT129536, the FTDNA equivalent of this clade appearing to be E-Z19851>FT39742>FT130252. This clade branched from Z19851(>FT39742) between ca. 1587-1877 BCE and has a TMRCA of 2700 ybp (ca. 677 BCE) on YFull, while on FTDNA it is estimated that the MRCA lived during the early 1500s CE. This is due to the fact that on YFull this branch is only represented by a single German sample (with origins from Rhineland-Palatinate), while on FTDNA there are two Germans under this branch. From what I have gathered at least one of these Germans is of Volga German background - albeit with paternal roots from Nierstein in Rhineland-Palatinate during the 1700s CE. The distribution of this branch and upstream FT39742 makes its presence among Albanians interesting, as FT39742 branches have a western distribution: being present in Germany (E-FT130252 and E-FT40470), Austria (E-FT40470), England (E-BY4788), the USA and also Italy (E-BY183947). This also increases the diversity of E-Z19851 subclades, other branches found among Albanians being under: E-A18833 (such as in the case of the Shoshi and Bobi tribes) and some uncertain, possibly, basal branches found around Sukth and Radomirë. 

2) Y-DNA haplogroup Q-YP789 has been identified in a sample from the village of Polis, located just north-east of Elbasan. This branch has been identified in a number of aDNA samples ranging from the third and seventeenth centuries CE. The earliest samples date to the third century CE (ca. 254-409 CE) and were from the Berel kurgans in eastern Kazakhstan. Judging from their patrilineage, autosomal profiles, and archaeological/historical contexts these Q-YP789 samples from Berel appear to have been of Hunnic origin. Q-YP789 then appears in multiple Avar samples ranging from the sixth to tenth centuries CE, given the Hunnic association of YP789 and upstream L713, it is possible that these Avars were themselves of Hunnic extraction. In a Balkan context, Q-YP789 appears in a Bulgar sample from around Veliko Tarnovo and is dated to between 889-989 CE. As such, it would be interesting for this Albanian sample to do further testing or upload to either YFull or FTDNA, as it would narrow down when exactly this specific branch arrived in the Albania; be that with earlier Hunnic or Avar migrations/raids, or later with the expansions of the Bulgarian empires. It is also interesting to note that there a now at least three Y-DNA haplogroups that can be confidently associated with the Huns confirmed among modern Albanians: Q-YP789, R1b-Y84684, and R1a-Y155382.

3) A sample from the village of Isniq in western Kosovo has been confirmed as I2a-FT20796. This is interesting as this sample claims tribal origin from the Shala of northern Albania who are in fact R1b-FT25059, thus debunking a direct origin from the tribe. Furthermore, there are a number of samples from Sandžak who also claim descent from branches of Shala that migrated to western Kosovo (Rugova in this case) but are in fact I2a-FT14506 - and thus unrelated to the Shala of Isniq and true Shala, although they could possibly be related to a Shaljan from Deçan who is classified only as I2a-PH908. It is also of interest to note that the famous Kosovo Albanian revolutionary Isa Boletini traced his paternal roots to the Shala of Isniq, his family migrating to Shala e Bajgorës during the 1700s as a result of blood feuds. Thus, there is a possibility that Boletini was himself I2a-FT20796, although this would have to be confirmed with actual testing of a male relative.

So Boletini do not trace their origin to the Malsi or do they have tradition of having come from the Malsi prior to Isniq ? Can you tell us more about this Y-DNA ?

[Kelmendasi]

So Boletini do not trace their origin to the Malsi or do they have tradition of having come from the Malsi prior to Isniq ? Can you tell us more about this Y-DNA ?

According to tradition the Shala of Isniq stem from Pecaj in the Shala Valley from where their ancestor Lekë Vuka arrived during the late 1500s or early 1600s. Boletini's fis is supposedly descended from Leka's son Nika and it is believed that they left Isniq around the year 1750 eventually settling in Boletin. Their genealogy is as follows: Lekë Vuka > Nikë Leka > Mujë Nika > Demë Muja > Hajdar Dema > Mursel Hajdari > Adem Murseli > Isa Ademi (Boletini). 

Seems to me as if I2a-FT20796 - as a branch of Y3120>Z17855 - represents a clade that arrived with the earliest expansions of Slavs into the Balkans, and thus could have been assimilated early on by the ancestors of Albanians (on YFull there are two Albanians on separate branches of this clade). In this case it could also have been assimilated by Albanians in Kosovo. Hard to say without closer samples testing.

[targaryen]

A little off-topic, but any Albanians watch Yellowstone and any of its prequels? That show is pretty much the story of Albania but with 4500 years instead of 150 years.

Just substitute Montana/Albania, the EEF for Native Americans, and the Yamnaya with cowboys. The Yamnaya were the original cowboys after all

[Beast]

So Boletini do not trace their origin to the Malsi or do they have tradition of having come from the Malsi prior to Isniq ? Can you tell us more about this Y-DNA ?

According to tradition the Shala of Isniq stem from Pecaj in the Shala Valley from where their ancestor Lekë Vuka arrived during the late 1500s or early 1600s. Boletini's fis is supposedly descended from Leka's son Nika and it is believed that they left Isniq around the year 1750 eventually settling in Boletin. Their genealogy is as follows: Lekë Vuka > Nikë Leka > Mujë Nika > Demë Muja > Hajdar Dema > Mursel Hajdari > Adem Murseli > Isa Ademi (Boletini). 

Seems to me as if I2a-FT20796 - as a branch of Y3120>Z17855 - represents a clade that arrived with the earliest expansions of Slavs into the Balkans, and thus could have been assimilated early on by the ancestors of Albanians (on YFull there are two Albanians on separate branches of this clade). In this case it could also have been assimilated by Albanians in Kosovo. Hard to say without closer samples testing.

Makes a lot of sense. There were some movements into Kosove in the 1500's and 1600's going by the evidence, not that large but there were some, some people escaping blood feuds as noted by Mazreku. So I think Boletini can be counted as old family in Kosove, it's not like they arrived in the 18th century which is what almost the wiki page etc seem to suggest. We are old family too I know. We are Gash i Gurit. We didn't come there in the 18th century. Neither did the Berisha e Kuqe, I remember it was mentioned they arrived in 17th century. Could of been even earlier going by their matches, maybe 16th century. I assume these people arriving in the 16th-17th century already came across an overwhelming Albanian population in the plains of Dukagjin, as the registers of the 15th-16th century do seem to indicate.

[Beast]

I mean if we look at the facts, the demographics in Kosovo shifted entirely in favor of Albanians in West-Central Kosovo and the Llapi area of North-East Kosovo and the towns, at least, way before 1690, even the people who revolted were Albanians in 1690, led by Pjeter Bogdani and Toma Raspasani. Also if we use registers from 16th century and travellers and Catholic sources from 17th century, they included these territories of Kosovo and North Macedonia within Albania. This was also noted by the historian Noel Malcolm, he has written an essay about this, you can read for free here https://archive.org/details/rebels-belie...-noel-2020

So he claims most of the refugees that went to Hungary did not come from Kosovo, except for maybe some villages in Eastern Kosovo, that had a higher proportion of Slavs. I tend to agree with his conclusions, even when we look at the military archives, they mention the people that revolted as Albanians:

"The reputation of this commander grew more and more because of his orderliness such that 5,000 Arnauts [Muslim Albanians] in Pristina [Prishtina] who had risen against the Turks and [the inhabitants of] many of the major towns in the vicinity had given to understand that they would submit to the rule of the Emperor. Thus, when he arrived in Pristina, they swore allegiance to the Emperor and at that moment, this large tract of territory came under the shadow of the laurels of His Imperial Majesty."

"For his part, he continued his march and arrived on the 6th, as reported earlier, in Prisiran [Prizren], the Capital of Albania, where he was welcomed by the Archbishop (5) [36r] of that country and by the Patriarch of Clementa with their various religious ceremonies. Outside of Priserin [Prizren] there were at least 6,000 Albanese [Albanian] troops as well as others who had formerly been in the pay of the Turks and who are known as Arnauts. "

Source: Kosovo: In the Great Turkish War

The 20,000 people that revolted were mentioned as Albanian too. Prishtina was entirely Islamised, Vushtrri was entirely Islamised eventually, Prizren etc. If you look at the accounts of the Turkish traveller Evliya Celebi that mentions Vushtrri as Albanian speakers or how he mentions Peja lay in Albania, or how he mentions Llapi area lay in Albania. There are also accounts of Gjergj Bardhi, Pjeter Mazreku, and Turkish geographer Haxhi Kallfa etc

So obviously this idea that Albanians in Kosovo are supposed to be 18th century immigrants is nothing but a Serbian fairytale obviously. I sure as hell know we didn't come there in the 18th century.

What's interesting some villages even in the Nahije of Peja had significant Albanian names even in 1485 such as Lepovac was filled with Albanian names:

Gjoni son of Andrija
Pepa his son
Nenko his son
Gjoni son of Stepan
Gjini brother of Vuk
Tanush brother of Vuk
Gjini son of Bardo
Bardo Stepan
Gega son of Ivan
Andrija Gega
Gega his son
Branka Gjirakari
Bozhan Dashnanini
Dimitri son of Ulahu
Andrija Lazari
Andrija Todori
Gega son ofTurucani
Gega son of Gjeci
Gjoni son of Meksha
Gega Govedari
Branko son of Tanush
Miomani son of Bardo
Gjoni son of Gega
Kola son of Lazar
Iskender
Pepa brother of Branko
Leka son of Tanush
Tole son of Ivan
Nikola Todori
Bardo Todori
Vuku son of Dimitri
Lazar son of Dimitri
Vuk Gjeci
Lazar Gjorgji
Gega Todori
Gjeci son of Gjoni
Gjeci son of Gjoni
Gjini son of Meksha
Andrija Vukoviq
Bardo son of Andrija
Nika son of Andrija
Petri son of Gjeci
Tole son of Lazar
Bozhidar son of Todor
Nenko son of Gega



I mean the register show an Albanian majority in many areas even in the 16th century , the Muslim converts were Albanians too going by accounts.

[Beast]

How do you explain some of these medieval Albanian toponyms in the Toplica area?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%...Prokuplje)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ka_Mountain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ko_Hill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ka_River


Why are there rivers and mountains there named after Albanians ? Wtf ?

[corrigendum]

How do you explain some of these medieval Albanian toponyms in the Toplica area?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%...Prokuplje)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ka_Mountain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ko_Hill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ka_River


Why are there rivers and mountains there named after Albanians ? Wtf ?

Why wouldn't there be medieval toponyms which refer to Albanians in this region? This was an eastern area of Albanian speech in this period.

The most interesting point about such toponyms is not their existence, but the fact that they show that the name "Arbëneshë" couldn't just start its expansion from a very small microregion in central Albania.

[Beast]

How do you explain some of these medieval Albanian toponyms in the Toplica area?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%...Prokuplje)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ka_Mountain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ko_Hill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ka_River


Why are there rivers and mountains there named after Albanians ? Wtf ?

Why wouldn't there be medieval toponyms which refer to Albanians in this region? This was an eastern area of Albanian speech in this period.

The most interesting point about such toponyms is not their existence, but the fact that they show that the name "Arbëneshë" couldn't just start its expansion from a very small microregion in central Albania.

I actually agree with you. And there are more. There are also such toponyms in Romania and Bulgaria wich I think represents a migration from the West-Central Balkans into that area. This one is in Bulgaria, a village called Arbanasi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbanasi_(Veliko_Tarnovo) , possibly from the time of the second Bulgarian Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bulgarian_Empire

[Beast]

The Albanians in Toplica area were Orthodox that then converted to Islam following Ottoman occupation. This is apparently an old Orthodox Albanian church in the Gallap area in Kosova. The inhabitants converted to Islam following Ottoman occupation.