Albanian Discussion Thread

[Beast]

An interesting book by Oliver Jens Schmitt I came across that talks about Albanian lands under Ottoman occupation, both the lowlands and highlands. How and why conversions occurred, the process and speed of Islamization in the towns and each area, Mentions Catholic Highlanders revolting against Ottoman occupation etc . https://books.google.com/books?id=aCdYHU...&q&f=false

[Aeolus]

A thread dedicated to the discussion of Albanian genetics, history, and other related or relevant subjects. Please let's keep discussions in good faith and avoid the politicisation or personalisation of conversations.

Hey there. I've recently been interested in the development of the Albanian culture. I was wondering how much of it is Paleo-Balkan vs Ottoman? 

Could you also tell me what you think about the Albanian and ancient Macedonian connection? Because I'm starting to believe modern-day Albanians have some level of relation to ancient Macedonians, whether that's just influence or direct descent. Their phenotypes also overlap. Especially amongst Kosovo Albanians.

[targaryen]

Modern Albanian culture is more eastern european post-communist than having anything to with paleo-balkan, roman or turkish empires. Especially when we're talking about the republic of Albania that lived under Hoxha's regime.

In terms of Turkish influence, I'd say it mostly shows up in food and drinks. The biggest religious community is also Islam, but in the Republic of Albania religion is only seriously practiced by a small minority. I'd say this is the biggest difference between Kosovars/Macedonian Albanians and the one in the republic. But even they are not super religious either.

As for ancient Macedonians, they seem to be largely of West Balkanic stock. It's likely a huge portion of them were simply assimilated Illyrians. Modern mainland Greeks look West Balkanic too in terms of autosomal DNA, unlike ancient Greeks who were Minoan like. It seems modern Greeks have absorbed a lot of this DNA.

[Kelmendasi]

A thread dedicated to the discussion of Albanian genetics, history, and other related or relevant subjects. Please let's keep discussions in good faith and avoid the politicisation or personalisation of conversations.

Hey there. I've recently been interested in the development of the Albanian culture. I was wondering how much of it is Paleo-Balkan vs Ottoman? 

Could you also tell me what you think about the Albanian and ancient Macedonian connection? Because I'm starting to believe modern-day Albanians have some level of relation to ancient Macedonians, whether that's just influence or direct descent. Their phenotypes also overlap. Especially amongst Kosovo Albanians.

It is hard to quantify these cultural influences as both pre- and post-Ottoman influences played a significant role in the development of Albanian culture (in the understanding of traditional customs, food, clothing etc). In my opinion, the Ottoman influences appear to be strongest in the food and some aspects of Albanian traditional music and clothing. The Ottomans also influenced customs and folklore to a lesser degree, although for the most part these are pre-Ottoman (same with elements of clothing and music). And as Targaryen has noted, the Hoxhaist regime played its role as well in making the population more secular and pushing away some traditions. 

I do not believe that the Albanians can be connected to the ancient Macedonians as the latter were most certainly a Hellenic peoples. That is not to say however that the Proto-Albanians weren't in contact with the Macedonians, they certainly were.

[targaryen]

I do not believe that the Albanians can be connected to the ancient Macedonians as the latter were most certainly a Hellenic peoples. That is not to say however that the Proto-Albanians weren't in contact with the Macedonians, they certainly were.

Albanians are a modern people so it'd be anachronistic to compare them to an ancient population they don't descend from, but there is 0 evidence that ancient Macedonians were Minoan-like genetically, like Myceneans, Athenians, etc...

We have two very different sites in Northern Macedonia, that have come back identical to Illyrians, even though these sites were not Illyrian in antiquity. The one in Ohrid was part of Upper Macedonia, part of the ancient Macedonian kingdom.

From the Origin of Albanian paper, where 3/4 of the authors themselves were Greek

The close clustering of BA-IA populations from Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and northern Greece is also confirmed in proximate qpAdm models, as the Çinamak MLBA-IA samples derive most of their ancestry from the West Balkans (Tables S8-S9), with a possible 15-25% contribution from a southeast Balkan source (Bulgaria EIA, Greece BA Mycenaean) after the Middle Bronze Age (MBA) (Table S9). Based on the above, the MBA-IA populations of a large geographic region spanning northern Greece, North Macedonia and the entire Adriatic coast, including the region of modern Albania, form a uniform genetic cluster with similar admixture proportions (Fig. 3B) that persists for at least 1.500 years and transcends the linguistic boundaries identified by classical authors (7, 9). Our findings are further reinforced by IBD-sharing between certain samples from Albania and North Macedonia (Table S20) (50).

"transcends the linguistic boundaries identified by classical authors." is pretty self explanatory, meaning regardless of the language (Hellenic, Hellenoid or some other), that region had a different genetic profile than Mycenean Greeks/Greeks proper.

[corrigendum]

Albanians are a modern people so it'd be anachronistic to compare them to an ancient population they don't descend from, but there is 0 evidence that ancient Macedonians were Minoan-like genetically, like Myceneans, Athenians, etc...

We have two very different sites in Northern Macedonia, that have come back identical to Illyrians, even though these sites were not Illyrian in antiquity. The one in Ohrid was part of Upper Macedonia, part of the ancient Macedonian kingdom.

The Ohrid region wasn't in Upper Macedonia. Upper Macedonia more or less includes the areas just south and east of the Prespa lakes. After the period of Philip II, the Ohrid area paid taxes to Macedonia but by the era of Philip V the situation had changed again:

Roman alliance with the Aetolians against Macedonia will have encouraged the latter's enemies to seek an immediate profit while forcing its allies to reflect on the depth of their loyalty to the king. In 210 BC Philip raided some of the most southerly Illyrian communities in the hinterland of Apollonia. In 208 BC: Philip's garrison at Lychnidus was betrayed by its commander to a local leader Aeropus, who proceeded to invite the Dardani into the area. When they reached the plain of Macedonia the king was forced to abandon operations in Greece. A similar pattern of events occurred in the following year and the Dardanians now became such a threat to the Macedonian war effort in Greece that their actions may have been instigated by the Romans, employing their allies in Illyria as intermediaries. (Wilkes 1992)

The EIA samples from Ohrid are 500 years older than this period. They are unrelated to Macedonians, who around 700 BCE mostly lived south of the Aliakmon river (Emathia). The Ohrid samples either represent Enchelei or Dassaretii, both Illyrian groups. Since they carry J-Y13128, it is more likely than not that they represent Enchelei, who are described as being a pre-IE regional group which joined Pre-Proto-Illyrians as they moved southwards, hence they have a typical west Balkan profile with Balkan Neolithic Y-DNA. In some sources the Enchelei are described as living in Montenegro before moving to the Ohrid region. As such, it's not a surprise that samples from this area have Illyrian-related profiles, but such a finding tells us nothing about ancient Macedonians.

Ancient Macedonians may have had more steppe admixture than southern Greeks because their northern neighbours had more steppe admixture and intermarriage wouldn't have been uncommon, but intermarriage with northern neighbours can be used as a counter-argument as well because south Thracians had significantly less steppe admixture than Illyrians. I don't consider it likely that Macedonians had a profile similar to Illyrians. It's clear that Macedonians came from an area south of the Aliakmon river and were a northern extension of LBA Greeks. The profiles of the oldest Macedonian samples from Emathia will probably have a bit more steppe admixture than Mycenaeans and will fall in the same position of the Paleo-Balkan cline as south Thracians or maybe the LBA "Proto-Paeonian" (?) from Dimov Grob.

[Beast]

Again the evidence of an earlier Albanian settlement in Macedonian territories relies on the phonological development of particular locations. In Macedonia the names of Ohrid (Alb Ohër) < Lychnidus, Skopje (Mk Skopje, Sr Skoplje, Alb Shkup) < Skupi, and Štip < Astibos are best explained by the phonological developments of Albanian

The place-name Shkup is evidenced as Scupi- in ancient records, as for ex. in Itineraria Romana 1916 (of the III-IV centuries A.D.)77. ln the Balkan Slavic languages this place-name sounds with initial /Sko-/: Skopie, whereas in Albanian the initial /Shku-/ in Shkup-i is a direct reflection of the ancient /Scu-/, and this excludes a Slavic intermediation. The regular evolution of Scupi > Shkup has also been admitted by Barić ( 1955, p. 49) and Skok78 (before him).

https://web.archive.org/web/202302070756...1338406907
https://web.archive.org/web/202011201143...IbAQAAIAAJ

[Ushta]

A thread dedicated to the discussion of Albanian genetics, history, and other related or relevant subjects. Please let's keep discussions in good faith and avoid the politicisation or personalisation of conversations.

Hey there. I've recently been interested in the development of the Albanian culture. I was wondering how much of it is Paleo-Balkan vs Ottoman? 

Could you also tell me what you think about the Albanian and ancient Macedonian connection? Because I'm starting to believe modern-day Albanians have some level of relation to ancient Macedonians, whether that's just influence or direct descent. Their phenotypes also overlap. Especially amongst Kosovo Albanians.

Urban areas had major Ottoman and Byzantine influence. But in the more isolated regions, mainly in the mountains, Albanians have preserved some ancient cultural aspects. One example is the pilgrimage on mountain peaks during particular festivities, which is a pan-Albanian tradition still practiced today, regardless of the modern religious affiliation. Another Albanian pre-Christian tradition is practiced during the period of the spring equinox - Verëza or Dita e Verës. This festivity is official in the Republic of Albania. A number of Albanian typical dishes appear to be pre-Christian, such as the Arbëresh kulaç (Italian: gugliaccio), the pan-Albanian laknor/lakror/lakruar, the flia in Kosovo and the ballokume of Elbasan which is associated with Dita e Verës. At least pre-Ottoman is also the Albanian petull, spread in southeastern Italy, where it is known as pettola (from Albanian petull < pet(ë) -ul(l)). Wine and diary products are from the ancient period. Non-urban traditional clothes, dances, songs, musical instruments and motifs are pre-Ottoman and even pre-Roman. The architecture of the old cities in the Balkans, including Albanian cities, is clearly Ottoman.

[Moeca]

Lake Ohrid always seemed to be under a Macedonian or Epirote dynasty

map below shows it as under the Antigonid Dynasty ( a Macedonian branch )

note..... Roman foothold in Albania from the time of Hannibal wars against Rome ..............
Reddish land owned by Romans and taken from Macedonians to deny the Hannibal-Macedonian alliance from flourishing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonid_dynasty



BTW........I seem to have a limit on size of attachments I can present, why is this ?

[targaryen]

Lake Ohrid always seemed to be under a Macedonian or Epirote dynasty

map below shows it as under the Antigonid Dynasty ( a Macedonian branch )

note..... Roman foothold in Albania from the time of Hannibal wars against Rome ..............
Reddish land owned by Romans and taken from Macedonians to deny the Hannibal-Macedonian alliance from flourishing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonid_dynasty



BTW........I seem to have a limit on size of attachments I can present, why is this ?

Alexander fought a great battle at the city of Pelium, which is around modern eastern Albania and was at the Illyrian/Macedonian border. So anything east of modern Albania seemed at least then to have been ancient Macedonian territory, including those samples southeast of Ohrid.

And yet, those samples southeast of Ohrid show identical aDNA with Illyrians and shared IBD.

I mean to me this is no surprise, since all ancient sources state that Philip II's mother and first wife were of Illyrian origin, clearly showing the deep cultural/genetic link between the two populations, despite whatever language the ancient Macedonians spoke. Both Philip and Alexander lived in Illyria when they were younger as well. Philip for a few years, and Alexander for 6 months.

[Moeca]

Lake Ohrid always seemed to be under a Macedonian or Epirote dynasty

map below shows it as under the Antigonid Dynasty ( a Macedonian branch )

note..... Roman foothold in Albania from the time of Hannibal wars against Rome ..............
Reddish land owned by Romans and taken from Macedonians to deny the Hannibal-Macedonian alliance from flourishing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonid_dynasty



BTW........I seem to have a limit on size of attachments I can present, why is this ?

Alexander fought a great battle at the city of Pelium, which is around modern eastern Albania and was at the Illyrian/Macedonian border. So anything east of modern Albania seemed at least then to have been ancient Macedonian territory, including those samples southeast of Ohrid.

And yet, those samples southeast of Ohrid show identical aDNA with Illyrians and shared IBD.

I mean to me this is no surprise, since all ancient sources state that Philip II's mother and first wife were of Illyrian origin, clearly showing the deep cultural/genetic link between the two populations, despite whatever language the ancient Macedonians spoke. Both Philip and Alexander lived in Illyria when they were younger as well. Philip for a few years, and Alexander for 6 months.

The biggest mixing of Illyrian tribal groups has always been with the Italians on the Adriatic side...........from Bronze-age times to imperial Roman times, when some Dalmatians even became Emperors of Rome

[corrigendum]

Alexander fought a great battle at the city of Pelium, which is around modern eastern Albania and was at the Illyrian/Macedonian border. So anything east of modern Albania seemed at least then to have been ancient Macedonian territory, including those samples southeast of Ohrid.

And yet, those samples southeast of Ohrid show identical aDNA with Illyrians and shared IBD.

I mean to me this is no surprise, since all ancient sources state that Philip II's mother and first wife were of Illyrian origin, clearly showing the deep cultural/genetic link between the two populations, despite whatever language the ancient Macedonians spoke. Both Philip and Alexander lived in Illyria when they were younger as well. Philip for a few years, and Alexander for 6 months.

The traditional border between Illyria and Macedonia in antiquity was the Cangonj pass which coincidentally is very close to the modern Albania-Greece border

[okshtunas]

Some interesting and (seemingly) new samples from the public Rrënjët results map:

1) A sample from the village of Fang (traditionally a settlement of Bulgëri) in Mirdita has tested as E-Z19851>FT129536, the FTDNA equivalent of this clade appearing to be E-Z19851>FT39742>FT130252. This clade branched from Z19851(>FT39742) between ca. 1587-1877 BCE and has a TMRCA of 2700 ybp (ca. 677 BCE) on YFull, while on FTDNA it is estimated that the MRCA lived during the early 1500s CE. This is due to the fact that on YFull this branch is only represented by a single German sample (with origins from Rhineland-Palatinate), while on FTDNA there are two Germans under this branch. From what I have gathered at least one of these Germans is of Volga German background - albeit with paternal roots from Nierstein in Rhineland-Palatinate during the 1700s CE. The distribution of this branch and upstream FT39742 makes its presence among Albanians interesting, as FT39742 branches have a western distribution: being present in Germany (E-FT130252 and E-FT40470), Austria (E-FT40470), England (E-BY4788), the USA and also Italy (E-BY183947). This also increases the diversity of E-Z19851 subclades, other branches found among Albanians being under: E-A18833 (such as in the case of the Shoshi and Bobi tribes) and some uncertain, possibly, basal branches found around Sukth and Radomirë. 

2) Y-DNA haplogroup Q-YP789 has been identified in a sample from the village of Polis, located just north-east of Elbasan. This branch has been identified in a number of aDNA samples ranging from the third and seventeenth centuries CE. The earliest samples date to the third century CE (ca. 254-409 CE) and were from the Berel kurgans in eastern Kazakhstan. Judging from their patrilineage, autosomal profiles, and archaeological/historical contexts these Q-YP789 samples from Berel appear to have been of Hunnic origin. Q-YP789 then appears in multiple Avar samples ranging from the sixth to tenth centuries CE, given the Hunnic association of YP789 and upstream L713, it is possible that these Avars were themselves of Hunnic extraction. In a Balkan context, Q-YP789 appears in a Bulgar sample from around Veliko Tarnovo and is dated to between 889-989 CE. As such, it would be interesting for this Albanian sample to do further testing or upload to either YFull or FTDNA, as it would narrow down when exactly this specific branch arrived in the Albania; be that with earlier Hunnic or Avar migrations/raids, or later with the expansions of the Bulgarian empires. It is also interesting to note that there a now at least three Y-DNA haplogroups that can be confidently associated with the Huns confirmed among modern Albanians: Q-YP789, R1b-Y84684, and R1a-Y155382.

3) A sample from the village of Isniq in western Kosovo has been confirmed as I2a-FT20796. This is interesting as this sample claims tribal origin from the Shala of northern Albania who are in fact R1b-FT25059, thus debunking a direct origin from the tribe. Furthermore, there are a number of samples from Sandžak who also claim descent from branches of Shala that migrated to western Kosovo (Rugova in this case) but are in fact I2a-FT14506 - and thus unrelated to the Shala of Isniq and true Shala, although they could possibly be related to a Shaljan from Deçan who is classified only as I2a-PH908. It is also of interest to note that the famous Kosovo Albanian revolutionary Isa Boletini traced his paternal roots to the Shala of Isniq, his family migrating to Shala e Bajgorës during the 1700s as a result of blood feuds. Thus, there is a possibility that Boletini was himself I2a-FT20796, although this would have to be confirmed with actual testing of a male relative.

Recently Rrenjet has tested the Çoku of Kllobçisht, Diber who are confirmed R1a-L1029>Y133367. The Çoku family was one of the main ruling families in Dibër during the Ottoman period, originating from the village of Kllobçisht. From this family came prominent patriots of the National Renaissance period, such as Iljaz Pashë Çoku (Dibra). What's interesting is that Çoku claim descent from the noble House of Gropa. If true, it would most likely mean all those under Y133360 descend from Gropa. Though this remains unconfirmed.

Recently a brotherhood by the name of Doko from Pohum, Struga, Macedonia tested positive under R1a-L1029>Y133360. The reason this is interesting is because, there is an alternative theory from a book on Pohum (which equally is unsubstantiated) that claims the line of Muhammad Ali Pasha came from a Ibrahim Doko from Pohum, instead of Korçe.

Please see attached images for point of reference. I can share the PDF of the book for anyone interested. There are a number of family trees for the brotherhoods of this region.

Additionally, the brotherhood of Lloga from this region were also confirmed positive under R1a-L1029>Y133360.

[Beast]

.....

Many city names of the Dacians were composed of an initial lexical element (often the tribe name) affixed to -dava, -daua, -deva, -deba, -daba or -dova (<PIE *dʰeh₁-, "to set, place").[2][page needed] Therefore, dava 'town' derived from the reconstructed proto-Indo-European *dhewa 'settlement'.[3] A non-Indo European, Kartvelian solution has also been briefly mentioned, but dismissed as a random occurrence (Tomaschek 1893, p. 139) e.g., see comparison with *daba, 'town, village'.

Many city names were composed of an initial lexical element affixed to -dava, -daua, -deva, -deba, -daba, or -dova, which meant "city" or "town" Endings on more southern regions are exclusively -bria ("town, city"), -disza, -diza, -dizos ("fortress, walled settlement"), -para, -paron, -pera, -phara ("town, village"). Strabo translated -bria as polis, but that may not be accurate.[4] Thracian -disza, -diza, and -dizos are derived from Proto-Indo-European *dheigh-, "to knead clay", hence to "make bricks", "build walls", "wall", "walls", and so on. These Thracian lexical items show a satemization of PIE *gh-. Cognates include Ancient Greek teichos ("wall, fort, fortified town", as in the town of Didymoteicho) and Avestan da?za ("wall").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an..._and_Dacia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dava_(Dacian)

And in any case, it is increasingly apparent that the whole satem/centum classification system does not correspond to the fundamental distinguishing features of the Indo-European languages: it may be the linguists' equivalent of one of those classifications of mammals by eighteenth-century biologists, which modern scientists have had to discard. [46] Another technical (and much more speculative) argument for identifying early Albanian with Thracian was put forward by the Bulgarian linguist Georgiev, who divided Thracian into two languages, one north-western, the other south-eastern, and argued on the basis of consonantal changes that Albanian must have come from the north-western one. But his arguments (at least in relation to the supposed Albanian connection) have been thoroughly dismantled by other scholars.

The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian. [42]

One thing is quite certain: the Albanians did acquire their Christianity from a Latin-speaking teacher or teachers. The Albanian language contains much Latin-derived vocabulary anyway, having obviously absorbed words from nearby Romans or Romanized barbarians from the second century bc onwards; but the Latin element is especially rich in the area of Christian belief and Christian practice. Thus we have meshe (mass), from missa; ipeshk (bishop), from episcopus; ungjill (gospel), from evangelium; mrekull (miracle), from miraculum; and a great number of other words, extending far into the vocabulary of psychology, morality and even the natural world (such as qiell, meaning heaven or sky, from caelum).

Many of the words that would need to be put on such a list, in fact, are not special ecclesiastical terms, for which a non-Christian population would have no equivalent of its own; they are simple words such as 'spirit', 'sin', 'pray*, 'holy', and so on, for which most languages, even in pre-Christian times, have their own vocabulary. When other early evangelizers translated the Bible or the liturgy into Armenian, or Gothic, or Anglo-Saxon, they used local words for these things - that, indeed, is what is implied by the whole idea of translation. Why should Nicetas, translating into proto-Albanian, have simply transferred huge quantities of Latin words? Schramm notes the oddity of this in passing, and suggests unconvincingly that there must have been some special cultural reasons. [59] But the oddity is more overwhelming than he admits. For example, even the word for a flock, as used in Christian discourse, was taken from the Latin (grigje, from grex) - of all the things in the world, the one for which a shepherding population must surely have had its own word already. [60]

The solution to this puzzle is blindingly simple. These elements of Latin vocabulary have undergone exactly the same sorts of sound-changes, compressions and erosions as all the other Latin words which entered the Albanian language over several centuries; and the reason why those words entered the language was that the Albanians were in contact, over a long period, with people who spoke Latin. The existence of large quantities of such Christianity-related Latin vocabulary does not show that someone 'translated' Christian discourse into early Albanian. It shows the precise opposite - namely, that Albanians were for a long time exposed to the conduct of their religion not in translation but in the original Latin.

This can even be demonstrated grammatically. The term for 'Holy Trinity', Shendertat, bears a final 't' and an accent on the last syllable: this shows that it developed from the accusative, sanctam trinitatem, not the nominative, sancta trinitas. That is in fact the normal pattern of development in Romance languages, which gives us, for example, Spanish ciudad from dvitatem (not from civitas), or French mont from montem (not from mons). (There are many other Albanian examples too, such as grigje, mentioned above, which is really from gregem, not grex.) What this phenomenon reflects is a pattern of usage in spoken Latin: these words were heard much more often as the objects in sentences than as the subjects. If Nicetas had been coining new Albanian words out of Latin for the purposes of his translation, he would surely have taken them from the nominative form. These words entered Albanian because Albanians heard them, over and over again, in spoken liturgical Latin.

Schramm's theory fails, therefore; and in so doing it performs a signal service. Thanks to Schramm, the Thracians can now be eliminated from these enquiries. His research into Nicetas's activities does indeed show that the Bessi received their Christianity, so to speak, in translation; this must force us to conclude that the Albanians, who received theirs in the original Latin, cannot be identified with the Bessi. The language of the Bessi must eventually have perished. Since the Bessi were the only Thracian tribe known to have kept their language as late as the sixth century (and Byzantine sources are naturally more detailed on the Thracian areas, which for them were closer to home, than on the Illyrian ones), it is impossible to find any other Thracian candidates. The origins of the Albanians must be sought, therefore, on the Illyrian side of the divide - particularly in the mountains round Kosovo, in the Malesi, and in the tangle of mountains stretching north from there through Montenegro.

https://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html

[Kelmendasi]

The Dacian and Thracian theories have been dismissed for a while now and are not positions held by mainstream academics specialising in Albanian linguistics or studies. The current consensus is that Albanian branched from the same linguistic ancestor as Messapic, with linguists then formulating their own paradigms from this basis and common ground. Matzinger currently argues that Proto-Messapic branched from its common ancestor with Proto-Albanian in the southern Balkans (roughly corresponding to Armenochori) and expanded northwards into Dalmatia, intermixing and merging with the local Proto-Illyrian population by ca. 1700 BCE or so before expanding across the Adriatic into Iapygia (modern Apulia). Proto-Albanian also expanded northwards at some point, apparently becoming entrenched somewhere around Dardania, before becoming established in Albania by late antiquity. On the other hand, linguists such as Hyllested and Joseph classify Albanian and Messapic as Illyric languages that developed in the western Balkans. Arguing that Albanians linguistically descend from resettled Dacians or Thracians is a fruitless endeavour. That is not to say however that there were no contacts and intermixing between the Proto-Albanians and Daco-Thracian groups, there certainly were.

What we know with a pretty high degree of confidence based on the current evidence is that (Proto-)Albanian was spoken in Albania by late antiquity at the latest with the terminus post quem being ca. 300-400 CE. This article from the Arbanology substack provides a good overview of the linguistic evidence for this.