(12-24-2023, 11:55 PM)pkchu Wrote: (12-24-2023, 07:35 PM)kolompar Wrote: You are right, they are all farmers. I got a bit carried away with my Caucasus theory with all the haplogroups. I blame OP for misguiding me.
There's also a Minoan on that branch and a modern Pontic Greek/Turk. So you might just have to go with the simple explanation that it's just a minor Anatolian line, and the C-V86 ancestor at 20k BC was in Anatolia (or wherever the ancestor of Anatolian farmers was). That is around the end of the LGM, probably still not time for a larger migration.
A lot of these splits seem to coincide with such natural events, C-V20 TMRCA is estimated at around 40k BC, roughly the same as that between I and J, which is the time of the Campanian Ignimbrite eruption which could have wiped out South/East Europe's population, leaving it to be repopulated from somewhere else.
There's no primordialistic entity as 'Anatolian Farmers' which existed in Anatolia since 20000 bc.
A more detailed understanding of C1a-V20 reveals a different picture. Within C1a-V20 there are 2 clades. C-BY1463 has not been found in a single Anatolian individual, despite scores of prehistoric Anatolian data, but has already been found from in high HG ancestry individuals with an east Carpathian focus. The second subclade within C1a-V20 is C-PH428, which is found in both Anatolia and European side of the Bosoprus. And given that upstream of C-V3163 can be found in Dolni Vestonice, Goyet, etc, it's actually a no brainer.
Please enlighten us with your more detailed understanding because you just restated what's already been posted.
The Balkans is way better sampled than Anatolia, both modern and ancient. There's only around a hundred pre-Bronze Age samples from Turkey and already by the Neolithic there was a haplogroup J takeover while the South/East was always more J/E heavy. Not a lot of chance for a line that might be a few percent to show up.
On the other hand there's around 50 Mesolithic samples just from Serbia/Romania Iron Gates, and around 200 from Neolithic/Chalcolithic Balkans. At this point the Balkans should be a better representation of Anatolian farmer haplogroup diversity than Anatolia itself, while I don't know why we would want to go by the farmers' haplogroups for Mesolithic. There's even more Mesolithic/"Neolithic" HGs from Ukraine than farmers.
The Romanian and Ukrainian C-BY1463 guys are both 80+% Anatolian, the Minoan has around 1% WHG, and Pontians are mostly assimilated locals so the modern sample should be informative too.
Why would the haplogroup come from such minority ancestry, instead of the overwhelming majority? Especially when the closest relative is also clearly Anatolian?
How do you explain a large migration from barely inhabitable Ice Age Europe? Why would it be a line that isn't even found there in the Mesolithic, and not the major I2 and U5 haplogroups?
How is the 40k BC split telling us anything? It's such an early date that there's no reason to put it in Europe as people would have just arrived there (from where do you think?). But we actually have the Balkans sampled at that period and we know those people went extinct and were replaced by the ancestors of later C-V20 people.