C-V86 thread

[Running4Borders]

Reposting a freeforums thread:

Right now all sampled modern C-V20 lineage guys are on the V86 branch.  They're fairly evenly split between the PH428 and the BY1463 branches (apparently excluding a man from Nepal).  According to the FTDNA time tree as of August 2023, the mrca of these 2 branches (V3163) lived around 21,000 BCE (+/- around 5k years).  

Think it's almost definitely the case that PH428's MRCA lived in or just outside Anatolia somewhere.  FTDNA has that mutation forming around 15-9kya, even though Pinarbasi apparently was a PH428 and has been dated around 15.5kya.  There are several ancient Barcin and Catalhoyuk etc. neolithic samples belonging to this branch as well.

BY1463 and V3918 have more ambiguous seeming geographical origins.  Both groupings, downstream from V3163 (tmrca ~23kya) (that probably arose in Europe somewhere? maybe not, I don't know), have ancient samples from the Neolithic and Chalcolithic in eastern and southeastern Europe only, primarily around the Tisza and Danube. 

The ancient sample spread also makes it seem likely that BY1463/V3918 weren't part of the same farmer's migration out of Anatolia as PH428.  I'm guessing this is the case due to PH428 diffusion across most of Europe vs the compact spread of the BY1463 branches, maybe this is faulty reasoning.  The vast majority of neolithic V86 samples are on the PH428 branch.

Personally, think the probability that BY1463 and V3918 arose in SE Europe, maybe right on the border with Anatolia in Thrace up to maybe eastern Central Europe, is moderately high based on available evidence right now.  But it could be that BY1463/V3918 both trickled into Europe from Anatolia either pre- or post-major ANF movement (or during too).  And also possible they trickled into SE Europe from elsewhere as well.  

But right now, if anyone wants to make a 5.5 dollar bet, I'm betting there are Iron Gates-like mesolithic hunter gatherer skeletons out there somewhere along or nearish to the eastern bits of the Danube that will turn out to be BY1463/V3918 guys.  And then a hedge 3 dollar bet there are pre-Neolithic BY1463 Anatolian guys.  And a 2.5 dollar bet we're not that lucky and those skeletons won't be found or won't yield enough DNA to make a call like that.   

No breakthroughs anywhere here or anything but I think, maybe barring people at Yfull and ftdna etc, I've spent more time than anyone alive staring blankly at the Yfull and Ftdna pages for C-V86, and for that demand attention and admiration.

And (10/5 edit) a 1 dollar bet that the V86 mrca was living outside the Balkans/Anatolia/Central Europe.  The V86 carried by the Vestonice 16 and 6 ~30kya is 10ky removed from this mrca man.  It could be the ancestors of extant V86 guys were huddled up farther to the east until the neolithic and that the V86 among Vestonice Gravettian folk had come from the east/wasn't absorbed from a pre-Gravettian western group.  Guess a lot of it comes down to something like where V20/V3177/(CTS11043?) formed.

[Running4Borders]

Just posting some straws to grasp at here:

From a paper called "Gravettian/Epigravettian sequences in the Balkans" by JK Kozłowski that covers stuff that might archaeologically bolster a Central European Gravettian ----> Balkans & Anatolia path argument for the branches in question, dates more or less line up as well:




"[T]he NE Balkans were inhabited in the coldest periods [of the LGM] and served as refuge for the Gravettian population from the Middle Danube area and the Carpathian Basin. This hypothesis has been corroborated by the presence of raw materials from the Carpathian Basin in the Bulgarian site of Temnata (Pawlikowski 1992).

The impact of the LGM on settlement in Central Europe is manifested in the emergence of a new facies--the facies with shouldered points. These implements are well known from the final Danubian Gravettian where they appear between 24 and 21 Kyr B.P.
...
In the Balkans, between 19 to 16 Kyr B.P., independently of the northern influences seen in the occurrence of shouldered points, industries emerge that do not know shouldered points but whose whole technological and typological tradition is linked with the Gravettian [...] elements undoubtedly derived from the tradition of the Danubian Gravettian.
...
The range of the Gravettian technological tradition covers also the territory of southern Turkey. The lowest stratigraphical series in the Okuzini Cave correspond to the Glacial Maximum on the basis of both absolute determinations (18-16 Kyr B.P.) and evidence of sedimentology and fauna. In these leves we find a technique--which is common with the Balkan Gravettian [.]
...
The formation of the cultural entity between the Balkans and Anatolia was facilitated by the sea recession during the LGM and subsequent part of the Late Glacial. The emergence of a larger continental shelf and easier connections between Aegean Islands contributed to trans-aegean links as well as to the Balkan-Anatolian migrations across Marmara sea basin.
...
We can hypothesize that in the period between 16-14 Kyr B.P. the contacts between the Balkans and southern Anatolia were enlivened[.]"

[TanTin]

I am sharing this group here:


37 C1a1a1b:JPT.SG:NA18974.SG
37 C1a1a1b:JPT.SG:NA18971.SG
37 C1b1a1a2a1:BEB.SG:HG03593.SG
37 NA:Germany DillingenSteinheim LBK EN.SG: Dil16.SG
37 C1b1a1a1:GIH.SG:NA21133.SG
37 C1b1a1a: PJL.SG:HG03228.SG
37 C1b1a1a2a1:BEB.SG:HG04155.SG
37 C1a1a1:JPT.SG:NA19006.SG
37 C1a1a1:JPT.SG:NA18989.SG
37 NA:Serbia LepenskiVir EN.SG:LEPE48.SG
37 C1a2:France MN:OBN006
37 NA:Bulgaria BachoKiro LatePleistocene:CC7−335 noUDG
37 C1a2:Spain HG:I0585
37 CF:Russia Kostenki14:Kostenki14
37 NA:Romania C Bodrogkeresztur:I18116
37 C1a:Spain HG brother.I0585:I0843
37 C1a2:Croatia N Cardial:I3947
37 NA:Bulgaria BachoKiro LatePleistocene:BB7−240 noUDG
37 C1a2a:Hungary Hunyadihalom MCHA:I2783
37 C1a2:Hungary MN LBK:I1496
37 C1a2a:Romania C Bodrogkeresztur:I4089
37 C1a2:Hungary MN ALPc:I1500
37 C1a2:Croatia C Lasinja:I10063
37 C1a2:Czech Vestonice16:Vestonice16
37 C1a2:Czech C Baalberge:I14174
37 C1a2:Italy Sicily MN:I4064
37 NA:Romania C Bodrogkeresztur:I7136
37 C1b2a1:Vanuatu 400BP:I10968

- these are generally the oldest OOA representatives of haplogroup C. And they cluster very well in the same group.
We may see a significant number of those on the Balkans.  Including the oldest  BachoKiro LatePleistocene:BB7−240 .
In this group is also Kostenki14.

As we see some people from this OOA migration wave went as far as Japan / Jomon . Another direction from this very first migration wave went to the islands to the South: Vanuatu.  However the Vanuatu is like a secondary migration from East Asia. / C1b2a1/.  There is another representative from Sicily,  which is also near the Balkans.

[kolompar]

But right now, if anyone wants to make a 5.5 dollar bet, I'm betting there are Iron Gates-like mesolithic hunter gatherer skeletons out there somewhere along or nearish to the eastern bits of the Danube that will turn out to be BY1463/V3918 guys.  And then a hedge 3 dollar bet there are pre-Neolithic BY1463 Anatolian guys.  And a 2.5 dollar bet we're not that lucky and those skeletons won't be found or won't yield enough DNA to make a call like that.   

No breakthroughs anywhere here or anything but I think, maybe barring people at Yfull and ftdna etc, I've spent more time than anyone alive staring blankly at the Yfull and Ftdna pages for C-V86, and for that demand attention and admiration.

And (10/5 edit) a 1 dollar bet that the V86 mrca was living outside the Balkans/Anatolia/Central Europe.  The V86 carried by the Vestonice 16 and 6 ~30kya is 10ky removed from this mrca man.  It could be the ancestors of extant V86 guys were huddled up farther to the east until the neolithic and that the V86 among Vestonice Gravettian folk had come from the east/wasn't absorbed from a pre-Gravettian western group.  Guess a lot of it comes down to something like where V20/V3177/(CTS11043?) formed.

I'll take those bets.
If you look at those C-V86 hunters you'll notice the only ones who have it have EHG admixture, like Iron Gates who also have a lot of R1b, and Ukrainians. EHG also have a lot of mtDNA connected to Caucasus/Middle East, like H, K, T, possibly even U4. They also seem to derive from Caucasians autosomally. So I think that points to it coming from the Caucasus, as all the unadmixed WHG who would come from a Balkans refugium don't have any of that. Maybe a post-LGM expansion, until they were overtaken by ANE.
Eastern Europe north of the Caucasus is also where the ancestral C was seen before in Sunghir and Kostenki, so that could be when and how it entered the Caucasus, or alternatively its a sign of Caucasian ancestry in them, with how deep the split is with the Asian C lineages.

[Running4Borders]

I'll take those bets.
If you look at those C-V86 hunters you'll notice the only ones who have it have EHG admixture, like Iron Gates who also have a lot of R1b, and Ukrainians. EHG also have a lot of mtDNA connected to Caucasus/Middle East, like H, K, T, possibly even U4. They also seem to derive from Caucasians autosomally. So I think that points to it coming from the Caucasus, as all the unadmixed WHG who would come from a Balkans refugium don't have any of that. Maybe a post-LGM expansion, until they were overtaken by ANE.
Eastern Europe north of the Caucasus is also where the ancestral C was seen before in Sunghir and Kostenki, so that could be when and how it entered the Caucasus, or alternatively its a sign of Caucasian ancestry in them, with how deep the split is with the Asian C lineages.

The Caucasus and right around them is mainly what I've been thinking with the "or elsewhere" category, that would make perfect sense to me.  The Levant could also work, but would stick to the original bets, don't know of any evidence that points to the other places being any likelier than ones involved in a Balkan-Danubian Gravettian ---->  _____ + Anatolia outline. 

Not sure what time frame you have in mind though.  If you mean every v86 ancestor of V3163 lived in or around the Caucasus, more than EHG signals and potential mt connections are needed.   Also possible or probably likely that 1) Vestonice 6 and 16 shared a Y ancestor who was closer in time to them than the V86 mrca on the ftdna tree, required info was just was lost, and 2) said ancestor or ancestor of that ancestor could be a closer mrca for all living V86 carriers.  No idea how much closer, but might skew up a few probability points for the central European Gravettian ---> Balkans/Anatolia picture potentially.

[kolompar]

If the Vestonice samples have a more recent common ancestor, something like 30k BC with V3163, then it could definitely come from the Caucasus, just like their haplogroup I most probably did. Sunghir's and western Gravettian's C splits around 40k BC, and I don't think they share any more recent Y-haplogroups with central European Gravettians.
Those EHG mitochondrial haplogroups are very close with the Caucasus, H and T have TMRCA around 15k BC according to YFull, so I would think C-V86 is kind of the Y equivalent. Farmers are known to come from Southeast Anatolia, and Pinarbasi's autosomes also suggest a more eastern origin, and not an Epigravettian leftover.
Those Iron Gates WHGs then don't represen the original Epigravettian diversity but have admixture from these eastern groups. Sure you get people suggesting everyone in the Middle East have WHG-like ancestry, but that just doesn't seem likely when U5, their main mtDNA line is not found there while every haplogroup they supposedly brought there disappeared from them.

[Kale]

If you look at those C-V86 hunters you'll notice the only ones who have it have EHG admixture, like Iron Gates who also have a lot of R1b, and Ukrainians.

Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying, but to date, no Epipaleolithic/Mesolithic European has been found with y-hg C-V86.

[kolompar]

You are right, they are all farmers. I got a bit carried away with my Caucasus theory with all the haplogroups. I blame OP for misguiding me.
There's also a Minoan on that branch and a modern Pontic Greek/Turk. So you might just have to go with the simple explanation that it's just a minor Anatolian line, and the C-V86 ancestor at 20k BC was in Anatolia (or wherever the ancestor of Anatolian farmers was). That is around the end of the LGM, probably still not time for a larger migration.
A lot of these splits seem to coincide with such natural events, C-V20 TMRCA is estimated at around 40k BC, roughly the same as that between I and J, which is the time of the Campanian Ignimbrite eruption which could have wiped out South/East Europe's population, leaving it to be repopulated from somewhere else.

[pkchu]

You are right, they are all farmers. I got a bit carried away with my Caucasus theory with all the haplogroups. I blame OP for misguiding me.
There's also a Minoan on that branch and a modern Pontic Greek/Turk. So you might just have to go with the simple explanation that it's just a minor Anatolian line, and the C-V86 ancestor at 20k BC was in Anatolia (or wherever the ancestor of Anatolian farmers was). That is around the end of the LGM, probably still not time for a larger migration.
A lot of these splits seem to coincide with such natural events, C-V20 TMRCA is estimated at around 40k BC, roughly the same as that between I and J, which is the time of the Campanian Ignimbrite eruption which could have wiped out South/East Europe's population, leaving it to be repopulated from somewhere else.

There's no primordialistic entity as 'Anatolian Farmers' which existed in Anatolia since 20000 bc.
A more detailed understanding of C1a-V20 reveals a different picture. Within C1a-V20 there are 2 clades.  C-BY1463 has not been found in a single Anatolian individual, despite scores of prehistoric Anatolian data, but has already been found from in high HG ancestry individuals with an east Carpathian focus. The second subclade within C1a-V20 is C-PH428, which is found in both Anatolia and European side of the Bosoprus. And given that upstream of C-V3163 can be found in Dolni Vestonice, Goyet, etc, it's actually a no brainer.

[Running4Borders]

There's also a Minoan on that branch

This is a quibble, but if you dig into the supplementary info for that sample, he was an infant who was buried in a way that was more known up to that point from the Greek mainland + autosomally he looks like later Mycenaean-mixed Cretans. Kind of an edge case because if I'm remembering right he's the earliest dated sample in the paper that looks like that there. None of that's evidence for anything involving V222 movement though far as I can tell, the mainlander tradition/admixture might not have anything to do with it.

On that note though, Yfull recently switched from 4000 ybp tmrca for V222 to 3600 ybp, which is what ftdna is saying as well. That's really close to the time that Kydonia sample was from. Plausible that the V222 mrca was from Greece.

[Kale]

C-BY1463 has not been found in a single Anatolian individual, despite scores of prehistoric Anatolian data, but has already been found from in high HG ancestry individuals with an east Carpathian focus. The second subclade within C1a-V20 is C-PH428, which is found in both Anatolia and European side of the Bosoprus. And given that upstream of C-V3163 can be found in Dolni Vestonice, Goyet, etc, it's actually a no brainer.

Quick combing of AADR v52 anno file.
- 7 examples of hg-C in ancient Anatolia
- 22 examples of hg-C in Neolithic Europe

V3163 being nested securely within 40-30bkp European samples strongly suggests a Europe > Anatolia trajectory of hg-C, but the question is, when did BY1463 get to Europe?
1) Was it formed there?
2) Did it arrive in the Mesolithic along with the Anatolian-like autosomal signal in IronGates-HG?
3) Was it a minor lineage among Anatolian farmers?

Only 7 examples of C in ancient Anatolia isn't enough to rule out option 2 or 3.

[pkchu]

C-BY1463 has not been found in a single Anatolian individual, despite scores of prehistoric Anatolian data, but has already been found from in high HG ancestry individuals with an east Carpathian focus. The second subclade within C1a-V20 is C-PH428, which is found in both Anatolia and European side of the Bosoprus. And given that upstream of C-V3163 can be found in Dolni Vestonice, Goyet, etc, it's actually a no brainer.

Quick combing of AADR v52 anno file.
- 7 examples of hg-C in ancient Anatolia
- 22 examples of hg-C in Neolithic Europe

V3163 being nested securely within 40-30bkp European samples strongly suggests a Europe > Anatolia trajectory of hg-C, but the question is, when did BY1463 get to Europe?
1) Was it formed there?
2) Did it arrive in the Mesolithic along with the Anatolian-like autosomal signal in IronGates-HG?
3) Was it a minor lineage among Anatolian farmers?

Only 7 examples of C in ancient Anatolia isn't enough to rule out option 2 or 3.

There's no Anatolian-like admixture in Iron Gates HG, aside from outliers, certainly nothing which is specific to them over other EHG & WHG. 
Id say C1a moved from Europe to Anatolia c. 30- 25000 calBP. 

There are numberous Neolithic samples in Anatolia. The sparsity of Yhg C1a and I2c is an attestment to the sparsity of population in Anatolia before the Neolithic , at which point there was a large migration from north Mesopotamia-Iran, bearin Y-hg G2 and H2, also attested at the GW level

[Kale]

A few qpadm for IronGates

Show Content

Spoiler
Serbia_Padina_HG
Italy_Tagliente_HG 0.582160 0.0119287 48.8034
RUS_Vologda_Minino_HG 0.211725 0.0187557 11.2886
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N 0.206114 0.0153570 13.4215
Tail: 0.24

Serbia_Vlasac_HG
Italy_Tagliente_HG 0.637580 0.0121299 52.5627
RUS_Vologda_Minino_HG 0.216065 0.0195070 11.0763
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N 0.146354 0.0160182 9.13674
Tail: 0.42

Romania_OstrovulCorbului_HG
Italy_Tagliente_HG 0.529431 0.0149652 35.3774
RUS_Vologda_Minino_HG 0.271828 0.0251992 10.7872
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N 0.198741 0.0201827 9.84712
Tail: 0.62

right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'ZlatyKun.SG', 'Ust_Ishim.DG', 'BachoKiro_IUP', 'China_UP', 'Kostenki14', 'Muierii1', 'GoyetQ116_1', 'Sunghir.SG', 'BachoKiro_BK1653', 'Gravettian_KremsVestonice', 'Yana_UP.SG', 'MA1.SG', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'Jomon.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG', 'Taforalt', 'Kotias_UP.SG', 'Anatolia_Epipaleolithic', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

[pkchu]

A few qpadm for IronGates

Show Content

Spoiler
Serbia_Padina_HG
Italy_Tagliente_HG    0.582160 0.0119287 48.8034
RUS_Vologda_Minino_HG 0.211725 0.0187557 11.2886
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N  0.206114 0.0153570 13.4215
Tail: 0.24

Serbia_Vlasac_HG
Italy_Tagliente_HG    0.637580 0.0121299 52.5627
RUS_Vologda_Minino_HG 0.216065 0.0195070 11.0763
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N  0.146354 0.0160182  9.13674
Tail: 0.42

Romania_OstrovulCorbului_HG
Italy_Tagliente_HG    0.529431 0.0149652 35.3774
RUS_Vologda_Minino_HG 0.271828 0.0251992 10.7872
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N  0.198741 0.0201827  9.84712
Tail: 0.62

right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'ZlatyKun.SG', 'Ust_Ishim.DG', 'BachoKiro_IUP', 'China_UP', 'Kostenki14', 'Muierii1', 'GoyetQ116_1', 'Sunghir.SG', 'BachoKiro_BK1653', 'Gravettian_KremsVestonice', 'Yana_UP.SG', 'MA1.SG', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'Jomon.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG', 'Taforalt', 'Kotias_UP.SG', 'Anatolia_Epipaleolithic', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

Nothing wrong with experimenting in contemporaneous/ quasi-anachronistic models, but cautious interpretation is required

If IG had actual Neolithic Anatolian admixture, there'd be evidence of Farming there 8000 BC and Y-hg G2a , but there isnt. Rather, qpADm is capturing the structure within WHG, with Italian WHG being a 'less basal form of WHG" than those in Iron Gates. 
I agree with Lazaridies, that theres even higher amounts of AHG-like admixture in EHG, but EHG themselves are too eastern to represent this kind of ancestry, so Boncuklu kicks in

[Kale]

Could you describe what you mean by 'less basal form of WHG'?