Balto-Slavic drift evolution : PCA

[Kale]

I find anachronistic to call a WHG rich component like HGBSD to model population that were likely in the proto/late IE stage. The baltoslavic drift in ukraine is just a ukraine neolithic kind of signal identifying the more western steppe cluster in comparison with people east of the Donets/Don region. HGBS drift should be renominated the proto indoeuropean drift

Proto-IndoEuropean is Yamnaya. HGBS source is zero Yamnaya.
So, how can you call it proto indoeuropean drift?

You posted a list of a few HG with BSD here https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...08#pid8308
Do all other IronGates and Latvia HG have 0 BSD, or do the examples listed just have the most?
I'm wondering to what extent the Magdelanian ancestry of 'WHG' (whatever samples that includes? I presume 'Oberkassel cluster') may be inflating levels of BSD in Balkan/Baltic HG due to them having less of that Magdelanian ancestry than WHG do.

[ambron]

old europe

The vector of Indo-Europeanization of Eurasia was the late CWC, i.e. the early CWC plus the Polish GAC.

[ph2ter]

I find anachronistic to call a WHG rich component like HGBSD to model population that were likely in the proto/late IE stage. The baltoslavic drift in ukraine is just a ukraine neolithic kind of signal identifying the more western steppe cluster in comparison with people east of the Donets/Don region. HGBS drift should be renominated the proto indoeuropean drift

Proto-IndoEuropean is Yamnaya. HGBS source is zero Yamnaya.
So, how can you call it proto indoeuropean drift?

That is an outdated  theory. proto indoeuropean is middle deon neolithic ( Dneper-Don culture) which was Ukraine neolithic+ a 20% CHG

from allentoft

Interestingly, two newly reported ~7,300-year-old genomesfrom the Middle Don River region in the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Golubaya Krinitsa, NEO113 &
NEO212) were found to be predominantly derived from earlier Ukrainian HGs, but with ~18-24%.of their ancestry contributed from a source related to HGs from the Caucasus

later on

While the broader impacts of the steppe migrations around 5,000 cal. BP are well known, the originof this ancestry has remained a mystery. Here we demonstrate that the steppe ancestry composition(Steppe_5000BP_4300BP) can be modelled as a mixture of ~65% ancestry related to herein reported HG genomes from the Middle Don River region (MiddleDon 7500BP) and ~35% ancestryrelated to HGs from Caucasus (Caucasus_13000BP_10000BP) Thus, Middle Don HGs, who already carried ancestry related to CaucasusHGs (Extended Data Fig. 4a), serve as a hitherto unknown proximal source for the majority ancestry contribution into Yamnaya-related genomes.

Yamanaya is too young to be PIE so this is not the cluster that gave rise to IE. PIE stem from the Ukranian HG which carried all the right Ylines ( R1a, I2and R1b )
we should all now model european populations with EEF,WHG and Middle Don as correctly the new figures present in the Allentoft paper do.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Original Corded Ware is essentially Yamnaya. The younger CW samples have more and more of Globular Amphora admixture (consisting od EEF + WHG) (datings are after the last underscore):



What is the origin of Yamnaya and CW is other thing.

[ph2ter]

I find anachronistic to call a WHG rich component like HGBSD to model population that were likely in the proto/late IE stage. The baltoslavic drift in ukraine is just a ukraine neolithic kind of signal identifying the more western steppe cluster in comparison with people east of the Donets/Don region. HGBS drift should be renominated the proto indoeuropean drift

Proto-IndoEuropean is Yamnaya. HGBS source is zero Yamnaya.
So, how can you call it proto indoeuropean drift?

You posted a list of a few HG with BSD here https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...08#pid8308
Do all other IronGates and Latvia HG have 0 BSD, or do the examples listed just have the most?
I'm wondering to what extent the Magdelanian ancestry of 'WHG' (whatever samples that includes? I presume 'Oberkassel cluster') may be inflating levels of BSD in Balkan/Baltic HG due to them having less of that Magdelanian ancestry than WHG do.

No, the listed samples have the most. Others in average have 10% of such HGBSD.
But these percents only indicate from which components BSD later formed. It didn't exist in that time. It formed later (probably in 4th-3rd millenium BC inside some East European HG population).

[ambron]

BSDHG may have formed genetically at the same time as WHG and EHG. Except we don't have a sample of pure BSDHG like we have WHG and EHG. Then BSDHG could add admixtures to WHG, just like they add EHG to WHG. This way we would have samples with a certain percentage of BSDHG.

[Codaman]

This is going to be an ugly effort so bear with that. This is an attempt at visualizing the data of G25 in an un-abstracted manner(nothing more simple than that) which is only complicated by, well, the amount of data involved. Color-clustering is automatic but generally corresponds with continental or regional groupings.
All populations:

There is too much going on here to even begin to analyze anything, but it seems clear the first three PCA can be dropped as they primarily concern intercontinental variance. With this done and the populations reduced to Europe-only and various HGs and proxies for Balto-Slavic drift added:


It appears that PC24 aligns with HG(and "UHG" from Anatolia) without specifically being linked with BSD, although it is in the opposite direction the drift element of NW Europeans(but not exclusively globally).
PC14 as previously noted functions as a HG dimension that excludes both WHG and even moreso EHG and therefore rather fits with HGBSD/BSD_HG in the Vatya_o dimension.
If BSD_EEF is a real thing it should align with PC15 which seemingly divides Europe in a SE/NW axis.
PC21 might have some other property regarding Eastern European-specific variance that excludes HG-based simulations.
Although I probably missed something I can't really say much more about these PC except that PC16 and PC17 seem like complete junk. Their cryptic purpose might relate to the macro-structure of the PCA but at the expense of nonsense on the smaller scale.

[Rodoorn]

This time I tried to reconstruct Balto-Slavic drift population with the assumption that such population was some Neolithic combination of HG and EEF, similar to Vatya_o, but to comply also Spiginas2 type of populations.

What I came up with is a population which on PCA falls very close to RomaniaC_oHG_GB sample:


Here is my new basic calculator with such BSD component (Balto-Slavic-Drift component which is also some kind of WHG-EEF-EHG combination):

Code:

BSD,0.139782,0.1522635,0.124916,0.0901845,0.1006165,0.0314615,0.0163085,0.0316,0.0371455,-0.004572,0.0012435,-0.0218345,0.039901,0.0662735,-0.0386175,-0.0082235,0.002497,0.0084965,0.00349,0.005984,0.009297,-0.003105,-0.0082725,-0.0721915,0.005406
EEF,0.116187154,0.182560923,0.003249077,-0.099981231,0.050991615,-0.048119308,-0.003850385,-0.007774846,0.040007923,0.082146538,0.008793923,0.011436077,-0.023797077,6.35385E-05,-0.044860692,-0.010321692,0.024121077,-0.000838154,0.011564154,-0.009398769,-0.015597385,0.006078,-0.004531692,-0.004096846,-0.005775538
WHG,0.130612,0.1112005,0.192897,0.20001875,0.14579625,0.056824,0.01562825,0.03432525,0.081912,-0.00350825,-0.01221975,-0.0175345,0.0237115,-0.00158275,0.047638,0.0614885,0.001532,0.0066195,-0.006128,0.054776,0.0923685,0.010696,-0.0403635,-0.1486655,0.01676475
EHG,0.122929,0.032496667,0.129980667,0.209843333,-0.010668667,0.056800333,-0.019036,-0.023921667,-0.002318,-0.086683333,0.017646,-0.018783333,0.033399,-0.038855667,0.018729,0.029258333,-0.014299,0.003040667,-0.003854667,0.012214,-0.007029333,0.015951,0.010558,-0.020886667,-0.009101
CHG,0.084229,0.1045995,-0.0914515,-0.003876,-0.089863,0.019662,0.0210335,-0.0036925,-0.129975,-0.076995,-0.0051965,0.02248,-0.049058,0.002133,0.029044,-0.0241975,0.029141,-0.0064615,-0.0189175,0.037768,0.0343145,-0.0069245,0.003266,-0.020846,-0.0006585
IRAN,0.045339667,0.065332333,-0.1523565,0.008021167,-0.1233565,0.026913,0.0137875,0.000846167,-0.081639,-0.056797,-0.003545333,-0.0004995,0.0043855,-0.008876833,0.0327765,0.054472333,-0.005346,0.005764333,0.013721833,-0.033578667,0.006883667,-0.029202667,-0.008771333,-0.0370135,0.0206965
SIBERIA-S,0.0665865,-0.221893,0.090886,0.088179,-0.0947865,-0.004602,-0.0300815,-0.031268,-0.0165665,-0.040274,0.0039785,-0.015586,0.0173185,-0.0526405,0.0051575,0.0027845,-0.004498,-0.007791,-0.001634,0.006816,-0.0295105,0.0115,0.01177,0.008977,-0.0222735
SIBERIA-W,0.0839445,-0.136081,0.0832495,0.15108425,-0.090863,0.02767975,-0.048882,-0.047998,-0.02684375,-0.06496725,0.0302855,-0.00588225,0.0239715,-0.0568725,0.01543825,0.0115355,-0.0144725,0.00272375,0.00399075,0.006128,-0.0354685,0.00995425,0.01996625,0.004097,-0.00805325
AMUR,0.019729333,-0.450895,0.079824,-0.055986667,-0.050060667,-0.045366333,0.013709333,0.010461,0.007294667,0.015004,-0.047092333,0.001698333,0.002329,0.017386667,-0.000724,-0.005303667,-0.005041667,0.000718,0.008966333,0.019967667,-0.00104,-0.026338333,-0.021280667,-0.003253333,-0.019958333
LEVANT,0.0685785,0.17289375,-0.027341,-0.14333225,0.028082,-0.064633,-0.01721475,-0.01407625,0.08094025,0.03603725,0.012504,-0.01618575,0.0353815,0.000688,-0.01347025,0.002917,0.00440025,-0.00456075,-0.006976,0.01572625,-0.00414875,0.005317,-0.002311,-0.00478975,-0.001946
MOROCCO,-0.189857,0.0812424,-0.0233816,-0.085918,0.026897,-0.0562244,-0.0688578,0.0189222,0.1556838,0.0023324,0.0228318,-0.0328806,0.0757278,-0.0494342,0.0694074,-0.035799,0.007719,-0.0649408,-0.1416618,0.0393438,-0.037908,-0.1254826,0.0707936,-0.0144358,0.0191596
CHINA,0.01935,-0.442263,0.0126335,-0.0560405,0.043854,0.0105975,0.003995,-0.000692,0.000102,0.0071075,-0.092724,-0.0129635,0.012859,-0.005849,-0.0065825,0.0005965,0.0022815,-0.00152,-0.002577,-0.005878,0.012041,0.01558,0.0156525,-0.000181,0.006227
INDOCHINA,-0.0034145,-0.334617,-0.0708985,-0.0040375,0.1024805,0.0292835,-0.00893,0.000577,0.015237,-0.006652,0.043601,0.007568,-0.0066895,-0.011216,-0.0050895,0.004243,0.005802,0.0020905,-0.0079815,0.0005,0.0043675,0.0072335,-0.002773,-0.0092785,0.0054485
ASIAN-PACIFIC,0.009675,-0.4087505,-0.0511,-0.0363375,0.1120205,0.040997,-0.00329,-0.00773,-0.009408,-0.0088385,0.0369435,0.002623,-0.0068385,0.0028905,0.007736,0.0082205,0.0024775,0.004434,0.0016345,-0.0116305,0.003743,-0.013911,0.0036975,-0.0134355,-0.0332905
INDIA,0.034147,-0.081242,-0.179887,0.122741,-0.096941,0.068886,0.00094,0.006923,0.035383,0.020228,-0.005034,0.004946,-0.006838,0.007019,0.002172,0.004375,0.007041,0.007348,-0.001383,0.00025,0.004367,-0.008779,-0.000863,-0.001566,-0.007065
SOUTHEAST-ASIA,-0.0381305,-0.216308,-0.1384035,0.1313,0.056626,-0.089942,-0.004935,0.004961,0.037837,0.016219,0.0107175,0.000075,-0.001561,0.0012385,-0.000407,-0.002188,0.0021515,0.0001265,-0.004462,0.0194465,0.0074245,0.0075425,-0.007703,0.0013255,-0.002455
WEST-AFRICA,-0.6038315,0.0573775,0.0139535,0.0272935,-0.00277,0.0027885,0.1236155,-0.0956495,0.0122715,-0.005285,-0.001299,-0.0219555,-0.021184,-0.0037845,0.0023075,0.0005965,0.011278,0.0184965,-0.003331,-0.001876,-0.0028075,0.000618,-0.000801,-0.00241,-0.0034725
EAST-AFRICA,-0.548058,0.051792,0.011125,0.0172805,0.001077,-0.001952,0.143709,-0.1073035,0.0579825,-0.037085,-0.003654,-0.0200075,-0.023563,-0.003303,0.0158795,-0.0101435,0.028489,0.1040115,-0.0267735,-0.0056275,-0.012166,0.0033385,0.001787,-0.004579,-0.0028735
SOUTH-AMERICA,0.050113583,-0.311090528,0.120835611,0.096469333,-0.111858417,-0.019909778,-0.288521306,-0.344466306,-0.010714917,-0.014796444,0.000320361,-0.002056472,-0.001238944,0.02309375,-0.007886694,0.004990528,0.005255028,-0.000355306,0.005474806,0.00577025,-0.001382944,0.004994139,0.000034361,-0.000796556,-0.001284111
CENTRAL-AMERICA,0.04467525,-0.317353,0.1119105,0.09197425,-0.11640625,-0.0169425,-0.2842455,-0.3302745,-0.00869225,-0.014761,-0.00024375,-0.0058075,0,0.02373975,-0.00257875,0.00477325,0.0079535,0.00072825,0.00339375,0.0005315,-0.0020275,0.012087,-0.00221875,-0.000512,-0.00302375
NORTH-AMERICA,0.047426333,-0.307367,0.115273333,0.090655333,-0.104327,-0.015431667,-0.254438333,-0.302141,-0.011658,-0.020228333,0.000541667,-0.00005,0.000099,0.013991667,-0.009862333,0.008486,0.005519333,0.003251667,0.004315333,0.004627667,0.003494,-0.002473,-0.003861667,0.002972,-0.000678667
CANADA,0.052928,-0.3234465,0.1071025,0.080427,-0.1029425,-0.0170125,-0.195294,-0.2371055,-0.005011,-0.016219,-0.004547,0.0020235,0.000223,-0.005161,-0.0077365,-0.003845,0.0009775,0.003674,0.006222,0.0113805,0.0024955,-0.0061825,0.0067785,0.0063865,0.0055085
AUSTRALIA,-0.042115,-0.224432,-0.205154,0.215442,0.145566,-0.322398,-0.007285,0.014538,-0.000818,0.003098,-0.004872,-0.002248,0.004311,-0.001239,-0.008415,-0.000796,0.004694,-0.001774,-0.01169,-0.003377,0.003369,-0.006801,-0.000863,-0.001928,-0.00946
YAMNAYA,0.125837778,0.089253889,0.042907889,0.115455556,-0.027868444,0.044684556,0.004491111,-0.002948667,-0.054857889,-0.072995667,0.001858333,0.000349667,-0.001651778,-0.023609889,0.037262889,0.015734,1.11111E-07,-0.001478,-0.001704,0.012505889,-0.003119667,0.001374,0.011229222,0.018436222,-0.004523667

Thanks for developing the Dutch from North to South:

[ph2ter]

Cel: Kujawiak_PL_scaled
Odległość: 3,2284% / 0,03228430
41,0 JAMNAJA
34,6 BSD
21,6 WEF
2.2 LEWANT
0,4 CHINY
0,2 MAROKO


0,02557111 CEE_Wczesne średniowiecze__I4803_820_R1a1a1b1a3a_H3
0,02582273 Serbia_Gomolawa__I1116_931_I2a1a2b1a1a1a_T2f
0,02710620 Chorwacja_Gornji__I35012_1204_R1a1a1b1a2b_U5b2a1a1
0,03026999 Chorwacja_Jagodnjak__I26747_723_-_H1+16189
0,03258404 Chorwacja_Gornji__I35095_1100__U3a1
0,03282091 Chorwacja_Gornji__I35010_1100__U5b1f
0,03411180 Chorwacja_Nustar__I28390_847_-_H16
0,03457126 CEE_Wczesne średniowiecze__I15232_838_R1a1a1b1a1a1a1a2_U4d2
0,03518419 CEE_EarlyMedieval__I4137_721_-_H1af2
0,03601057 Serbia_TimacumKuline__I15537_900_E1b1b1a1b1a6a~_H13a2a
0,03661639 Chorwacja_Gornji__I34980_1250__U5b2a1a1
0,03809714 Chorwacja_Brekinjova__I26748_838_R1a1a1b1a1a1a_I4a1
0,03903021 CEE_Wczesne średniowiecze__I13458_843_-_H1h1
0,04224552 Chorwacja_Jagodnjak__I26745_724_-_J1c2
0,04279547 Chorwacja_Gornji__I35014_1100_R1b1a1b1b3a1a1a_T2h2
0,04525984 Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja__I32305_100_-_T1a1b1
0,04603899 Serbia_Kormadin__I27295_500_-_V7
0,04931044 Chorwacja_Gornji__I35008_1700_R1a1a1b1a2b3a4a2d_T1a1l
0,04961586 Chorwacja_Cepinski__I35081_760__U4a3a
0,05031329 Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja__I15520_254_R1a1a1b2a2a1_U5b2b
0,05309396 CEE_EarlyMedieval__I12991_817_-_H4a1a1a
0,05424039 Serbia_Lepenski__I5404_1465_J2b1_U5b1b
0,05788510 CEE_Wczesne średniowiecze__I5026_700_-_H+152
0,05797611 Chorwacja_TrogirDobric__I26719_250_-_H27a
0,05852751 Chorwacja_SisakPogorelec__I28446_375_-_H+16311
Cel: Chorwacja_Gornji__I35014_1100_R1b1a1b1b3a1a1a_T2h2   {My relative}
Dystans: 3,8042% / 0,03804217
39,8 BSD    !
37,0 JAMNAJA
21.4 WEF
1,0 AUSTRALIA
0,8 CHG

Cel: Chorwacja_Gornji__I35014_1100_R1b1a1b1b3a1a1a_T2h2  <-             {Stolarek}
Dystans: 2,3351% / 0,02335122
40,8 Polska_Lad_Middle_Ages
27,0 Polska_Niemcza_Middle_Ages
11.2 Polska_Markowice_Middle_Ages
10.6 Polska_Kowalewko_IA
8.8 Polska_Balczewo_Middle_Ages
1.6 Polska_Legowo_Middle_Ages

@ph2ter, how close are you to Kujawy?

0.028565

[Rober_tce]

Remember all users next information: in general threads, only english language is allowed.

[old europe]

ph2ter

could you please post a pie chart enlarged and specifically focused on the middle don samples divided into HGBSD-WHG-EHG

[ph2ter]

ph2ter

could you please post a pie chart enlarged and specifically focused on the middle don samples divided into HGBSD-WHG-EHG

I don't have such map any more.
Something similar (with Yamnaya, EEF and all HG types).
Some of the older EHG + CHG wrongly are shown as Yamnaya (as far as I remember):