Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[sirdan]

Sirdan:

“However, if we go with your thinking, biparental lineages is not a ethnicity determinant too. Why so autosomal genetists talk about ethnicities all over the places.”

My point was only this: you cannot see language from DNA. If you want to know which language was connected to certain haplogroup or ancestry, you must check what the linguistic results are, and then look, which haplogroup or ancestry happens to be in the right place at the right time.

I agree, same with autosomal.
Hope to see in the future some breakdown starting from Z280, M458, Y2395 and Y17491.

[PopGenist82]

PopGenist82:

“Moreover, you're confusing your personal opinions as if they represent a 'universal linguistic gospel'. If what you said was true, then there wouldnt be a plethora of respectable linguists who propose that proto-uralic emerged somewhere deep in Siberia.”

In science only arguments count – not a number, not a status. Everybody can see that there are no valid arguments supporting the location of Late Proto-Uralic in Siberia; just read Häkkinen 2023 vs. Grünthal et al. 2022. You just have unscientifically decided that you can see language from DNA, but you will understand your mistake sooner or later. So why not sooner? Until then, I will only discuss with people who can understand the scientific method.

Haha we have the Gospel of Jaska: Genetics is wrong, archaeology is wrong, other linguists are wrong; and the Samoyeds invisibly migrated from the Urals to Siberia without a trace. Perhaps after you re-think your position on proto-Uralic, we can one day educate you about proto-Slavic

[leonardo]

This is the progression at FTDNA using their Globetrekker.

Is this claiming the Green is the core area they believe M458 expanded from and blue is where they expanded to?

What is the source of their data? I'm not on ftdna personally

I don't know the "source." I imagine it's the data they have collected on ancient and recent samples. I would think the green is the core and the blue a peripheral presence.
EDIT: I went to the Globetrekker tool on FTDNA and here is what they say about it: "Globetrekker estimates geographical ancestor locations and migrations across the world based on the largest database of high-coverage Y-DNA sequences, ancient DNA results from archaeological remains, and user-reported ancestral locations. These are best estimates and will change over time as more people test their Y-DNA and provide information about their paternal line ancestry."
And here is a statement they released about it in July of 2023, https://blog.familytreedna.com/globetrek...er-report/

[leonardo]

Just to complete the time frames, here is M458 according to FTDNA at 1000 CE, 1500 CE and 2000 CE.

[leonardo]

Over at his blog site, Davidski speculates about the Slavic homeland. His perspective is always worth a read:
"I think Slavs always had less hunter-gatherer ancestry than Balts.
In fact, maybe what distinguished Balts from Slavs at a very early time frame is some sort of Thracian or similar ancestry in Slavs? But I don't know.
In any case, I'm not claiming that MJ-19 is a proto-Slav, or even that the Slavic homeland was in central Ukraine.
The point I'm making is that MJ-19 looks like a Germanic/Slavic mix, while PCA0103 from Maslomecz looks like a Germanic/Baltic mix.
Apart from that, I'm leaving things wide open."

Looking at the FTDNA Globetrekker maps I posted, at least M458 seems to be positioned as that distinguishing factor . I'm nor saying M458 was Thracian. I am speaking of its location. With  I-S20602 and maybe a few others , perhaps these are the deciding factors that distinguish "Slavic" from "Baltic?"

[lukpl]

Over at his blog site, Davidski speculates about the Slavic homeland. His perspective is always worth a read:
"I think Slavs always had less hunter-gatherer ancestry than Balts.
In fact, maybe what distinguished Balts from Slavs at a very early time frame is some sort of Thracian or similar ancestry in Slavs? But I don't know.
In any case, I'm not claiming that MJ-19 is a proto-Slav, or even that the Slavic homeland was in central Ukraine.
The point I'm making is that MJ-19 looks like a Germanic/Slavic mix, while PCA0103 from Maslomecz looks like a Germanic/Baltic mix.
Apart from that, I'm leaving things wide open."

Looking at the FTDNA Globetrekker maps I posted, at least M458 seems to be positioned as that distinguishing factor . I'm nor saying M458 was Thracian. I am speaking of its location. With  I-S20602 and maybe a few others , perhaps these are the deciding factors that distinguish "Slavic" from "Baltic?"

He later also add:

"You have to get some reliable samples that show the presence of people who look unambiguously genetically like Slavs in Iron Age Poland. Not Balts, not Scandinavians with maybe some Baltic admixture, but Slavs.

You know, like the samples we already have that show that the Wielbark people were in large part unambiguously genetically Scandinavian.

Then we can seriously talk about the Slavic homeland being in Poland."

[ph2ter]

Here is PCA made with updated samples from the latest Davidski spredasheet (Sarmatian and Finnic samples are only projected on the PCA - otherwise they would distort PCA and squeeze all European samples on a narrow band):

[leonardo]

Here is PCA made with updated samples from the latest Davidski spredasheet (Sarmatian and Finnic samples are only projected on the PCA - otherwise they would distort PCA and squeeze all European samples on a narrow band):

It appears the Slavic Bubble runs on a lengthy north-south axis,, bordering Baltic and Finnic, but also toward pannonia and sarmatian. Could this be because, from a patrilineal perspective, Slavs ultimately consist of CTS1211, M458, I-S20602 and possibly other minor clades?

[ph2ter]

It appears the Slavic Bubble runs on a lengthy north-south axis,, bordering Baltic and Finnic, but also toward pannonia and sarmatian. Could this be because, from a patrilineal perspective, Slavs ultimately consist of CTS1211, M458, I-S20602 and possibly other minor clades?

I don't think that Slavs have significant Sarmatian admixture. In that case Slavs would have R1a-Z93, which is absent among them.
The Slavs got their R1a-Z280 from the Balts.
R1a-M458 could be from eastern Trzciniec.
I2-CTS10228 they could acquire from the south (Carpathians), but maybe they got it also from Trzciniec. I2-L233 and I2-L621 are related, they both are I2-P37 and some minority I2-L621 could have been hidden among Trzciniec I2-L233. As we know, all Slavic I2-Y3120 stem from only one individual living in Iron Age.
From the south (beside probable I2-Y3120) they acquired also some E-V13 clades.

[leonardo]

It appears the Slavic Bubble runs on a lengthy north-south axis,, bordering Baltic and Finnic, but also toward pannonia and sarmatian. Could this be because, from a patrilineal perspective, Slavs ultimately consist of CTS1211, M458, I-S20602 and possibly other minor clades?

I don't think that Slavs have significant Sarmatian admixture. In that case Slavs would have R1a-Z93, which is absent among them.
The Slavs got their R1a-Z280 from the Balts.
R1a-M458 could be from eastern Trzciniec.
I2-CTS10228 they could acquire from the south (Carpathians), but maybe they got it also from Trzciniec. I2-L233 and I2-L621 are related, they both are I2-P37 and some minority I2-L621 could have been hidden among Trzciniec I2-L233. As we know, all Slavic I2-Y3120 stem from only one individual living in Iron Age.
From the south (beside probable I2-Y3120) they acquired also some E-V13 clades.

I guess what I was trying to posit is that the Slavs are varied in their autosomal mix. They don't appear to be homogenous and unlike the Balts, who only border the Slavs on your map and are therefore rather isolated, the Slavs seem to be in the midst of a number of other ethnic groups - if not overlapping with them, certainly in close proximity. Since I believe I have read that the matrilineal lines of central and east-central Europe are somewhat similar, I have to theorize that it is the patrilineal lines that constitute the differences.

[ph2ter]

It appears the Slavic Bubble runs on a lengthy north-south axis,, bordering Baltic and Finnic, but also toward pannonia and sarmatian. Could this be because, from a patrilineal perspective, Slavs ultimately consist of CTS1211, M458, I-S20602 and possibly other minor clades?

I don't think that Slavs have significant Sarmatian admixture. In that case Slavs would have R1a-Z93, which is absent among them.
The Slavs got their R1a-Z280 from the Balts.
R1a-M458 could be from eastern Trzciniec.
I2-CTS10228 they could acquire from the south (Carpathians), but maybe they got it also from Trzciniec. I2-L233 and I2-L621 are related, they both are I2-P37 and some minority I2-L621 could have been hidden among Trzciniec I2-L233. As we know, all Slavic I2-Y3120 stem from only one individual living in Iron Age.
From the south (beside probable I2-Y3120) they acquired also some E-V13 clades.

I guess what I was trying to posit is that the Slavs are varied in their autosomal mix. They don't appear to be homogenous and unlike the Balts, who only border the Slavs on your map and are therefore rather isolated, the Slavs seem to be in the midst of a number of other ethnic groups - if not overlapping with them, certainly in close proximity. Since I believe I have read that the matrilineal lines of central and east-central Europe are somewhat similar, I have to theorize that it is the patrilineal lines that constitute the differences.

They look pretty distinct to me.
In Iron Age that was even more pronounced.

[Radko]

Genomic Map of Poland (update)

[lukpl]

Genomic Map of Poland (update)

SLAZ - Upper Silesians
GORA- Gorals (Highlanders)
KASZ- Kashebians
LEMK - Lemkos
BAMB - Bambrzy (Bambers) polonized descendants of Bamberg (Frankonian) German colonists, living near Poznan in Wielkopolska.

It is interesting that Bambers are quite similar to Podkarpackie voivodship but also to Lemkos. If common thing for last two is medieval German admixture from WaldDeutsches (Głuchoniemcy), presumably also central/south German, which makes them artificially similar to Bambers?

[Gordius]

Genomic Map of Poland (update)

SLAZ - Upper Silesians
GORA- Gorals (Highlanders)
KASZ- Kashebians
LEMK - Lemkos
BAMB - Bambrzy (Bambers) polonized descendants of Bamberg (Frankonian) German colonists, living near Poznan in Wielkopolska.

It is interesting that Bambers are quite similar to Podkarpackie voivodship but also to Lemkos. If common thing for last two is medieval German admixture from WaldDeutsches (Głuchoniemcy), presumably also central/south German, which makes them artificially similar to Bambers?

I can’t say anything about Bambers, but Lemkos, Podlias and Podkarp seem to be quite close to Ukrainian populations (in particular, elevated I2a)

[sirdan]

Podkarpackie has lowest sample count but the highest diversity. This is expected. Since this region was inhabited by the very different populations over time. More than other regions. This is a meeting point of many ethnicities.

I am crazy about I1 quantity. Hell what. Gimme the SNPies.