Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[leonardo]

Yeah, there are multiple M458 samples from the from the Iron Age. IIRC most have Scandinavian-like profiles, while some have Baltic ones?

If IA M458 was associated - at least in part - with the Pomeranian Culture, this would be expected.

[Vinitharya]

Contamination-that's a load of nonsense. If there are no downstream clades present that preclude it being from the particular era the remains are from, and the land it is found in has a lot of the haplogroup in question and is very diverse in subclades, logic states it is legitimate. Simply because an ethnic group has a lot of a haplogroup does not mean four thousand-or even two thousand-years ago that haplogroup was dominant in the group. Today L21 is most associated with Celtic languages, yet Celtic was likely formed in a culture mostly devoid of L21 and heavy in U152. And let us not forget the Basques; no one today seriously associates the formation of proto-Basque to the men bearing the DF27 subclade.

[ph2ter]

Here is PCA with included Trzciniec, Przeworsk, Wielbark, Poland Medieval and modern population averages.
The clusters are clearly visible. I can't see any continuity.

[leonardo]

Here is PCA with included Trzciniec, Przeworsk, Wielbark, Poland Medieval and modern population averages.
The clusters are clearly visible. I can't see any continuity.

The only two none medieval samples that i see which border the medieval samples are R1a-M458-CTS11962 - Kowalewko (PCA0002) and poz554; 1492-1297 BC; Brodzica 19, Poland; Trzciniec_BA, obviously both M458 samples.

[ph2ter]

Poland IA-MA with added Baltic (nice separation of all clusters):



Poland with added Sarmatian-Scythian and Finnic:



This PCA does not show that Trzcieniec and Poland Medieval are the same population.
This only seems to be because of obvious repulsion of Sarmatian-Scythian & Finnic with Poland IA-MA populations.
Conclusion: The Slavs are not a mix which includes Scythian in any significant way & there is clear discontinuity between Poland IA and Medieval populations.

[PopGenist82]

IMO it’s important to clarify the controversy about R1a-M458 in Iron Age Poland
If present, then the scenario points to a more complex “shift in social networks” + mobility , than population replacement.

[leonardo]

IMO it’s important to clarify the controversy about R1a-M458 in Iron Age Poland
If present, then the scenario points to a more complex “shift in social networks” + mobility , than population replacement.

Places like FTDNA and YFull list these samples as accurate. There are some who say, "there may be contamination." The same has been said by a few about I13780. On what basis? Every sample? LOL. Where's the evidence, not speculation. For me, I consider those M458 samples to be as reported until somebody proves otherwise.

[ph2ter]

IMO it’s important to clarify the controversy about R1a-M458 in Iron Age Poland
If present, then the scenario points to a more complex “shift in social networks” + mobility , than population replacement.

I think that M458 is in IA associated with some peripheral Balto-Slavic population that in the Medieval times strongly correlates with the Slavs. M458 among other populations appears only as an outlier.

On this PCA M458 samples are in reddish colour:

[Woz]

Aren't Slavs essentially Balts (or Trzciniec/Rus_Ingria_IA) with some extra paleo-Balkan type admixture? Not extra Germanic/Celtic admixture (at least as far as Ukrainians/Belarussians go)?

[leonardo]

IMO it’s important to clarify the controversy about R1a-M458 in Iron Age Poland
If present, then the scenario points to a more complex “shift in social networks” + mobility , than population replacement.

I think that M458 is in IA associated with some peripheral Balto-Slavic population that in the Medieval times strongly correlates with the Slavs. M458 among other populations appears only as an outlier.

On this PCA M458 samples are in reddish colour:

I believe the reason M458 appears as an "outlier" before its strong association with the Slavs is because, as your graph shows,  due to bottlenecks and a late growth or expansion, it can't really be associated in any significant way with other cultures. If we go back to its nascent growth stage we may find it was associated with the Pomeranian Culture and its successor, the Zarubinsty where it bordered the Przeworsk, possibly.

[ph2ter]

Here we can see that M458 was located north of CTS10228.
I suppose that the cradle of CTS10228 was at the Carpathians and the cradle of M458 was just northeast of it.

[leonardo]

Also, looking at the graphic map created by Ph2ter, it doesn't appear that any M458 sample is overly Baltic influenced, with the possible exception of Trzciniec sample poZ_554.
EDIT: well maybe the Hun LaTene sample I25524 as well.

[ph2ter]

Aren't Slavs essentially Balts (or Trzciniec/Rus_Ingria_IA) with some extra paleo-Balkan type admixture? Not extra Germanic/Celtic admixture (at least as far as Ukrainians/Belarussians go)?

Slavs are a mix of Baltic R1a-CTS1211, Carpathian CTS10228 and intermediate R1a-M458.
CTS10228 is the component which shifted Baltic CTS1211 towards south.
This CTS10228 could have been Eastern Celtic. I don't think it was Thracian or Dacian.
Or Dacian maybe only in the proportion that it was Celtic.

[Ioas]

Here we can see that M458 was located north of CTS10228.
I suppose that the cradle of CTS10228 was at the Carpathians and the cradle of M458 was just northeast of it.

Kinda related but do think the dacians would be cts10228 ? Nevermind I seen your post now lol

[lukpl]

Considering discusssion on David blog
Ambron is trying to prove that during several hundred years of the reign of the Wielbark Goths, a huge population of Slavs hid among them and, of course, cremated themselves. The problem is that they must have had exactly the same culture as the Goths from Wielbark, except for one exception, probably quite important, a funeral ritual that concerned only those with the Slavic genome, they probably had genetic tests performed on them before death If they had so strong cultural ties to follow burial ritual since centuries, it must be also visible in some other aspects of culture, if they theoretically lived during this time near Goths. If they lived apart of them in some isolated forests it is impossible to explain they had identical culture like Goths. But only such isolation could explain Goths wouldn't mix with them heavily. It was no Internet and TV in this time to globalize European tribes. In short we don't have any Slavic cultural artifacts except V/VI century in Poland. Or simply different then Wielbark but connected to cremated burials.