Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[Orentil]

Interesting, the Hacs samples plot indeed not far at least from the Przeworsk sample PCA0011. On the other side some of the Balatonszemes samples cluster perfectly with East Germanic Wielbark samples.

[nomad01]

Somogyvár-Vinkovci culture:
> Somogyvár-Vinkovci culture: > ERS16293360 [S9] R-M417* 2560-2290 calBCE

The sample was also checked by Pribislav and he confirmed it's a basal R-M417* (and not R-CTS1211).

S9 on PCA:



MBA similarity map:



modern similarity map:

Could you share the G25 of the samples from this study? They are not available on Eurogenes

[okshtunas]

a huge number of samples from Poland of late Roman times, but so far without ancient DNA

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...via%3Dihub

As in they haven't been published yet? Or they did not sequence/test samples?

If the latter, what's even the point of a study...lol

[Orentil]

a huge number of samples from Poland of late Roman times, but so far without ancient DNA

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...via%3Dihub

As in they haven't been published yet? Or they did not sequence/test samples?

If the latter, what's even the point of a study...lol

They write: "The in-depth aDNA results will be provided in a separate paper." It can make perfectly sense to separate these topics. I actually prefer to have first an archaeological paper followed by an aDNA paper. Often all the interesting archaeological content and context is hidden somewhere in a supplement, that's not what the great work of the archaeologists deserves.

[ambron]

Radko

In fact, we already have quite a few samples of early-Slavic individuals from west-central Russia. One looks genetically as Polish, and most look like a mix of Poles and the local Iron Age population.

Figure S3:

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-...7-mmc1.pdf

[Radko]

Distance to: Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160_noUDG.SG
0.01833909 Belarusian
0.01849198 Lithuanian_PA
0.02151379 Russian_Smolensk
0.02377710 Lithuanian_VA
0.02405987 Russian_Pskov
0.02410480 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02437241 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02455039 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02465812 Russian_Orel
0.02476387 Russian_Kaluga
0.02483812 Lithuanian_RA
0.02486114 Russian_Kursk
0.02601072 Russian_Voronez
0.02601324 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02606168 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02682087 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.02733804 Estonian
0.02754320 Russian_Tver
0.02839762 Russian_Ryazan
0.02954950 Russian_Belgorod
0.03002046 Polish
0.03005839 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03015274 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03104927 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03120101 Polish_Kashubian

Target: Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160_noUDG.SG
Distance: 1.3372% / 0.01337212
27.6 Lithuanian_VZ
26.8 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
23.2 Lithuanian_PZ
11.2 Lithuanian_PA
7.2 Sorb_Niederlausitz
1.6 Htin_Mal
1.2 Shetlandic
0.8 Ratlub
0.4 Yoruba

Target: Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160_noUDG.SG
Distance: 1.5435% / 0.01543477 | ADC: 0.5x RC
53.4 Lithuanian_PA
41.2 Belarusian
4.2 Estonian
1.2 Kuy_Suay

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY152492/

VK160 is also on Vyazov's "Slavic" IBD sharing graph.

[ambron]

Radko

Yes! VK160 is a good example. VK160 shares IBD segments with Poles (Margaryan). Its paternal line BY152492 comes from the Polish lineage L1029 and is currently found only in Russia. So the Slavs migrated from Poland to the east, but they no longer returned from the east to Poland.

[ph2ter]

The sample was also checked by Pribislav and he confirmed it's a basal R-M417* (and not R-CTS1211).

S9 on PCA:



MBA similarity map:



modern similarity map:

Could you share the G25 of the samples from this study? They are not available on Eurogenes

Code:

HUN_Balatonkeresztur_EBA__S9_-2425,0.120652,0.142174,0.024136,0.026163,0.026466,0.008088,-0.000235,0.003461,0.005113,0.001822,0.005196,0.019333,-0.013082,-0.01913,0.005836,0.006497,0.019036,-0.000887,0.00905,0.010505,-0.000499,0.009892,-0.005546,-0.001446,0.006706
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_LBA__S14_-1700,0.150247,0.149283,0.07467,0.037791,0.068936,0.008925,-0.019036,0.018692,0.02986,0.006925,-0.006171,-0.000749,0.004014,0.029176,0.002172,0.004773,-0.012386,0.000633,0.003268,0.009505,-0.01435,-0.008285,-0.010723,-0.034583,0.00012
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_LBA__S15_-1700,0.113823,0.146236,0.060339,0.026809,0.082477,0.013108,-0.00799,0.02723,0.055426,0.022962,0.010068,3.00E-04,-0.00996,0.007019,-0.029723,-0.00053,0.018775,0.002027,-0.006913,0.023886,-0.024956,0.000495,0.016392,-0.010001,0.008742
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_LBA__S16_-1765,0.129758,0.15436,0.090509,0.047481,0.081554,0.001116,0.001175,0.000692,0.032519,0.019499,-0.005521,-0.004046,0.007433,0.029176,-0.036373,0.013657,0.028033,0.000887,-0.019483,0.006753,0.009358,0.007419,0.014543,-0.030366,0.010418
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_LBA__S19_-1700,0.137726,0.141159,0.085229,0.053618,0.06155,0.008925,-0.00235,0.014769,0.021066,-0.003645,0.002598,-0.019782,0.002379,0.005918,-0.007057,0.024794,0.019558,-0.000507,0.007919,0.011756,0.02009,0.006677,0.004067,-0.026148,-0.000718
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_LBA__S20_-1700,0.127482,0.146236,0.062979,0.055233,0.080015,0.003347,0.010105,0.014307,0.008999,0.022051,-0.000974,0.004646,0.010555,0.016102,-0.003936,0,0.011865,0.018877,0.004902,-0.002001,0.020464,-0.002844,-0.01405,-0.03615,0.008861
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_LBA__S21_-1700,0.12862,0.14319,0.046763,0.041021,0.062473,0.015618,0.005405,0.016384,0.039678,0.009112,0.00065,-0.00015,-0.00223,0.001376,-0.016151,0.011933,0.00691,0,-0.000377,-0.005253,0.005366,0.008656,-0.012695,-0.051815,0.002275
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_MBA__S1_-2000,0.129758,0.14319,0.09164,0.06783,0.090786,0.023706,0.011516,0.011538,0.024543,0.032438,-0.003897,0.001199,0.013231,0.00055,-0.00855,0.0179,0.024773,-0.004307,-0.000251,0.005753,0.012228,-0.001978,0.001356,-0.050971,-0.018082
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_MBA__S11_-2090,0.119514,0.132019,0.10484,0.072029,0.08617,0.017012,0.012691,0.019384,0.031292,-0.005649,-0.002923,-0.007643,0.016799,0.031378,-0.019408,0.015115,0.034552,-0.006714,0.004274,0.002501,0.016845,-0.005935,-0.003821,-0.048923,-0.002395
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_MBA__S13_-2005,0.133173,0.152329,0.089755,0.058786,0.086785,0.024263,0.011516,0.019845,0.029656,0.00893,0.008769,-0.006744,0.016353,0.026424,-0.014251,0.004641,0.009127,-0.004941,-0.005531,0.029264,0.019466,0.003339,-0.020213,-0.034824,0.002754
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_MBA__S45_-2090,0.126344,0.150298,0.089378,0.079135,0.072937,0.01506,0.011986,0.010846,0.025156,-0.010934,0.003735,-0.012889,0.01888,0.016239,-0.024158,0.026651,0.025816,0.000253,0.00729,0.012881,0.015098,-0.003462,0.007395,-0.038078,-0.001437
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_MBA__S6_-2000,0.129758,0.13405,0.07995,0.038437,0.053856,0.01255,0.011751,0.002077,0.02127,0.001093,-0.000325,-0.003747,0.000743,0.002477,-0.018187,0.003182,0.009648,-0.00038,-0.005782,0.009129,-0.005366,-0.007419,0.002835,-0.012532,-0.007784
HUN_Balatonkeresztur_MBA__S7_-2000,0.120652,0.133034,0.084098,0.051357,0.074168,0.024821,-0.018566,0.02423,0.040291,-0.001276,-0.001624,-0.013038,0.02215,0.027525,-0.011808,-0.019358,-0.017863,0.007855,-0.000628,0.020135,0.003993,0.014096,0.007272,-0.043982,-0.005987

[Quint]

Two observations:

1. Many of those early Slavic samples plot closer to Russians than Belarusians or Ukrainians, and sometimes they even cluster with Mordvinians. In general this means most of them have some low-level Finno-Ugric admixture. This should be relevant to delimiting their origin to the upper reaches of the Dnieper and to Russia, since to my knowledge there is no evidence for an earlier Finno-Ugric presence further southwest in eastern Central Europe.

2. On average, the East Asian Avar samples cluster with modern Buryats, but a lot of them also show distinctive Yakut-like drift. In fact, I was able to model one individual, LEO116, as about a quarter Yakut_Sakha:

Target: Leobersdorf_AvarPeriod:LEO116.A0101
Distance: 0.7661% / 0.00766150
31.6 Mongol_IMAR
25.8 Yakut_Sakha
13.6 Mongolian
6.6 Tubalar
4.0 Kirghiz
4.0 Tibetan
3.2 Mari
3.0 Khakass
3.0 Tajik_Tajikistan_Ayni
2.6 Iranian_Zoroastrian
1.4 Eskimo_Sireniki
0.6 Croatian
0.4 Masai
0.2 Buryat

Most of the previously analyzed samples were Y-DNA N-F4205. However, N-M2058, coordinate with the modern Yakut Y-DNA branch, had been found in one Avar from Hungary, KD-16.

[Vinitharya]

Two observations:

1. Many of those early Slavic samples plot closer to Russians than Belarusians or Ukrainians, and sometimes they even cluster with Mordvinians. In general this means most of them have some low-level Finno-Ugric admixture. This should be relevant to delimiting their origin to the upper reaches of the Dnieper and to Russia, since to my knowledge there is no evidence for an earlier Finno-Ugric presence further southwest in eastern Central Europe.

This would suggest that they were from an anomalous, eastern grouping of Slavs.  If the Proto-Slavs had substantial Finno-Ugric admixture, than all Slavic people would have it today, and that is not the case.

[okshtunas]

a huge number of samples from Poland of late Roman times, but so far without ancient DNA

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...via%3Dihub

As in they haven't been published yet? Or they did not sequence/test samples?

If the latter, what's even the point of a study...lol

They write: "The in-depth aDNA results will be provided in a separate paper." It can make perfectly sense to separate these topics. I actually prefer to have first an archaeological paper followed by an aDNA paper. Often all the interesting archaeological content and context is hidden somewhere in a supplement, that's not what the great work of the archaeologists deserves.

Do we have an idea when this may be published?

M458 and all clades have strong hotspots around Krakow

[ambron]

Vinitharia

These Slav-like guys, rounded up by the Avars somewhere far to the east, were indeed anomalous, as seen by their "exotic" haplotypes such as PRX15.

[ambron]

In practice, it looked like this: firstly the Slavs migrated from their homeland, covering roughly the area of historical Galicia, to the west and east, and then flowed into the Balkans from the east and west direction.

[Orentil]

In practice, it looked like this: firstly the Slavs migrated from their homeland, covering roughly the area of historical Galicia, to the west and east, and then flowed into the Balkans from the east and west direction.

I have no problem with this geographical model - we might only disagree about the time when it happened :-)

[leonardo]

In practice, it looked like this: firstly the Slavs migrated from their homeland, covering roughly the area of historical Galicia, to the west and east, and then flowed into the Balkans from the east and west direction.

I have no problem with this geographical model - we might only disagree about the time when it happened :-)

What kind of time frame do you have in mind?