R1b-L51 in Yamnaya: Lazaridis 2024

[rmstevens2]

Here is something interesting from p. 182 of the Supplementary Material of the 2024 Lazaridis et al preprint, “The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans”:

Fifth, either in the late Pre-Yamnaya period before the archaeological emergence of the Yamnaya horizon, or early in Yamnaya period, the “ancestral blend” characteristic of the Yamnaya contributed to both the Don Yamnaya and by the 3rd millennium BCE, the steppe ancestry in people of the Corded Ware culture1,4,39,46-48 The date of shared ancestry between Yamnaya ancestors and people of the Corded Ware is definitively around the dawn of the Yamnaya culture in the second half of the 4th millennium BCE—not in the 5th millennium BCE or the beginning of the 4th millennium BCE as was recently hypothesized42—based on the finding of sharing of many large segments of DNA identical-by-descent between people of these two groups dating to the second half of the 4th millennium BCE35, most plausibly to the core Yamnaya founder event that we date in this paper to ~3800-3400 BCE. While the location of emergence of the people of the Corded Ware is, itself, an open question given the expansive history of that culture after its emergence, it must have certainly been to the west of the Core Yamnaya, and at the same time the geographic neighbor of the Yamnaya.

Sixth, the Bell Beaker culture of Central/Western Europe41 and early Corded Ware of Bohemia46 was dominated by Y-haplogroup R-L151, a relative of the R-Z2103 Y-haplogroup of the core Yamnaya within haplogroup R-L23 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23//; v11.04.00) formed in 4450BCE. This argues for a relatively western origin of the core Yamnaya similarly to the Fifth point above.

The authors don't seem to have noticed the five R1b-L51 Yamnayans (one of whom was L52) yet. At least I can't find any acknowledgement of them and how they might affect the authors' assessment/interpretation of the evidence.

It's really important to see if those samples are derived for something downstream of L51/L52. If any of them is actually L151, that could make a lot of difference. It's also important to find out what their autosomal profiles look like.

[R.Rocca]

Here is something interesting from p. 182 of the Supplementary Material of the 2024 Lazaridis et al preprint, “The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans”:

Fifth, either in the late Pre-Yamnaya period before the archaeological emergence of the Yamnaya horizon, or early in Yamnaya period, the “ancestral blend” characteristic of the Yamnaya contributed to both the Don Yamnaya and by the 3rd millennium BCE, the steppe ancestry in people of the Corded Ware culture1,4,39,46-48 The date of shared ancestry between Yamnaya ancestors and people of the Corded Ware is definitively around the dawn of the Yamnaya culture in the second half of the 4th millennium BCE—not in the 5th millennium BCE or the beginning of the 4th millennium BCE as was recently hypothesized42—based on the finding of sharing of many large segments of DNA identical-by-descent between people of these two groups dating to the second half of the 4th millennium BCE35, most plausibly to the core Yamnaya founder event that we date in this paper to ~3800-3400 BCE. While the location of emergence of the people of the Corded Ware is, itself, an open question given the expansive history of that culture after its emergence, it must have certainly been to the west of the Core Yamnaya, and at the same time the geographic neighbor of the Yamnaya.

Sixth, the Bell Beaker culture of Central/Western Europe41 and early Corded Ware of Bohemia46 was dominated by Y-haplogroup R-L151, a relative of the R-Z2103 Y-haplogroup of the core Yamnaya within haplogroup R-L23 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23//; v11.04.00) formed in 4450BCE. This argues for a relatively western origin of the core Yamnaya similarly to the Fifth point above.

The authors don't seem to have noticed the five R1b-L51 Yamnayans (one of whom was L52) yet. At least I can't find any acknowledgement of them and how they might affect the authors' assessment/interpretation of the evidence.

It's really important to see if those samples are derived for something downstream of L51/L52. If any of them is actually L151, that could make a lot of difference. It's also important to find out what their autosomal profiles look like.

L151 is an SNP that is in a good area of coverage, even in below-average quality samples. Given that all five Yamnaya samples have SNP hits on over 200,000 targets, I suspect most or all of them will be L151- or they would've been reported as positive. Hopefully they release the data soon.

[rmstevens2]

Here is something interesting from p. 182 of the Supplementary Material of the 2024 Lazaridis et al preprint, “The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans”:

Fifth, either in the late Pre-Yamnaya period before the archaeological emergence of the Yamnaya horizon, or early in Yamnaya period, the “ancestral blend” characteristic of the Yamnaya contributed to both the Don Yamnaya and by the 3rd millennium BCE, the steppe ancestry in people of the Corded Ware culture1,4,39,46-48 The date of shared ancestry between Yamnaya ancestors and people of the Corded Ware is definitively around the dawn of the Yamnaya culture in the second half of the 4th millennium BCE—not in the 5th millennium BCE or the beginning of the 4th millennium BCE as was recently hypothesized42—based on the finding of sharing of many large segments of DNA identical-by-descent between people of these two groups dating to the second half of the 4th millennium BCE35, most plausibly to the core Yamnaya founder event that we date in this paper to ~3800-3400 BCE. While the location of emergence of the people of the Corded Ware is, itself, an open question given the expansive history of that culture after its emergence, it must have certainly been to the west of the Core Yamnaya, and at the same time the geographic neighbor of the Yamnaya.

Sixth, the Bell Beaker culture of Central/Western Europe41 and early Corded Ware of Bohemia46 was dominated by Y-haplogroup R-L151, a relative of the R-Z2103 Y-haplogroup of the core Yamnaya within haplogroup R-L23 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23//; v11.04.00) formed in 4450BCE. This argues for a relatively western origin of the core Yamnaya similarly to the Fifth point above.

The authors don't seem to have noticed the five R1b-L51 Yamnayans (one of whom was L52) yet. At least I can't find any acknowledgement of them and how they might affect the authors' assessment/interpretation of the evidence.

It's really important to see if those samples are derived for something downstream of L51/L52. If any of them is actually L151, that could make a lot of difference. It's also important to find out what their autosomal profiles look like.

L151 is an SNP that is in a good area of coverage, even in below-average quality samples. Given that all five Yamnaya samples have SNP hits on over 200,000 targets, I suspect most or all of them will be L151- or they would've been reported as positive. Hopefully they release the data soon.

Probably you're right, and L151 came into Europe exclusively north of the Carpathians. Maybe Budzhak or pre-Budzhak was mostly L151.

[ArmandoR1b]

Since the Core Yamnaya founder event is dated to ~3800-3400 BCE and both R-Z2103 and R-L151 subclades are found in Core Yamnaya and Bell Beaker, respectively, and R-L23 is the common ancestor then R-L23 was likely involved in the founding of the Core Yamnaya. I think the authors are more concerned with answering, Where and how was the Yamnaya formed?, and they aren't too concerned with some of the specific SNPs between R-L23 and R-L151.

It seems that they will be trying harder to find the R-L23 ancestors of Core Yamnaya than they will be trying to find the intermediate subclades of R-L23 between R-L23 and R-L151.

[Cejo]

does anyone else suspect there was some kind of devastating plague in old Europe in the dynamics of genetic change in Europe?

The authors of this article seem to think so:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...7418314648

"Interestingly, our results indicate that before all these events, a large-scale branching and geographic radiation of Y. pestis occurred between 6,000 and 5,000 years ago, during the period known as the Neolithic decline, and shortly before the massive migrations from the Eurasian Steppe into Europe (Allentoft et al., 2015, Haak et al., 2015)."

"Our results are consistent with the existence of a prehistoric plague pandemic, spreading mainly through early trade networks, rather than massive human migrations, which allowed a rapid and large-scale expansion of the pathogen, that persisted through the Bronze Age with lineages that got eventually extinct. We propose that plague may have contributed to the Neolithic decline, which paved the way for the later steppe migrations into Europe."

[Sephesakueu]

PF7589 is downstream of L51 and may have come west via the Danube route.

Check out this thread.

What do you think of the R-Z2118 found in the Cetina Culture? It's surrounded by J2B2-L283s which are clearly accompanied by Yamnaya RZ2103s.

Some thought it was an Italic migrant going back, but that seems unlikely to me. It could be BB or maybe a Yamnaya remnant.

The problem with the Cetina culture is that it's too late to use to draw conclusions about early Indo-Europeans. 

Hard to say what to make of it. As I understand it, Cetina autosomal DNA was mostly EEF (~60%) but with about 33% WSH. 

Thus far, no J-M283 has turned up in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, or Bell Beaker, but maybe it will eventually. I honestly don't know what the ultimate source of the J-M283 in the Bronze Age Balkans is. 

That Z2118 (PF7589) probably represents a Y-chromosome descendant of the men who provided the WSH element in Cetina.

I dont know how you missed all the fuss about J-L283 in this forum.  I take it as a good example on how little people in general care for haplogroups that are not their own I guess, wich is only natural . So yeah we were Yamnaya and shiet, peasants or not.

[Awood]

Without assigning any Y-haplogroups - it is true that the elite is always a minority. Aristocracy initially comprises typically between 5 and 20% of the population. It comes into power by force, and it arises when a small group of invaders is military so superior, that it can layer and control a much larger population. It is also an interesting phenomenon that the layered lower class often takes (on an evolutionary level) the most advantage from this constellation: They typically grow in numbers, while the upper class tends to stagnate or to decline. Finally the social barrier might break up, members of the lower class enter the aristocracy, finally replacing the old elite. A good and well documented example is the history of the Roman Republic.

When staking outsized claims for a Y-DNA haplogroup that appears numerically unsuccessful in a particular region and among a particular population, the thing to do is elevate its members to the status of a ruling "elite". That relieves one of the necessity of finding much evidence of them. 

Aha! The members of that haplogroup must have been the numerically tiny "elite"! That's why there aren't that many of them (if any)!

J1 and J2 must have really been seriously "elite" among the early Indo-Europeans - they were so elite and so few in numbers you can't find them. A kind of absentee IE ruling elite. Looks like they were phoning it in from Iran and elsewhere in the Middle East.

Look man, I wasn't the one to put that J2a dude in the central burial of the kurgan.
The "midle eastener" ,caucasian origin or just non local origin for part of proto indo european/ sredny stog aristocracy is clear, wich makes a lot of sense actually.

I thought you were joking but you're actually being serious. 

Living in an R1b man's world, speaking an R1b man's language. Lots of butt hurt going round.

[Sephesakueu]

When staking outsized claims for a Y-DNA haplogroup that appears numerically unsuccessful in a particular region and among a particular population, the thing to do is elevate its members to the status of a ruling "elite". That relieves one of the necessity of finding much evidence of them. 

Aha! The members of that haplogroup must have been the numerically tiny "elite"! That's why there aren't that many of them (if any)!

J1 and J2 must have really been seriously "elite" among the early Indo-Europeans - they were so elite and so few in numbers you can't find them. A kind of absentee IE ruling elite. Looks like they were phoning it in from Iran and elsewhere in the Middle East.

Look man, I wasn't the one to put that J2a dude in the central burial of the kurgan.
The "midle eastener" ,caucasian origin or just non local origin for part of proto indo european/ sredny stog aristocracy is clear, wich makes a lot of sense actually.

Living in an R1b man's world, speaking an R1b man's language. Lots of butt hurt going round.

R1b is just a Y dna dude calm down, no one is serious here. I am aware of how important our early east eurasian ancestors were.

[jdean]

Think it might be an idea to stop bringing up posters haplogroups as if it makes some sort of difference.

[Webb]

Think it might be an idea to stop bringing up posters haplogroups as if it makes some sort of difference.

Straight from Ruykendo's signature where he quotes an old post from Anthrogenica, where a member suggested the R1a group fight the R1b to settle once and for all who the superman haplogroup was.

[R.Rocca]

What do you think of the R-Z2118 found in the Cetina Culture? It's surrounded by J2B2-L283s which are clearly accompanied by Yamnaya RZ2103s.

Some thought it was an Italic migrant going back, but that seems unlikely to me. It could be BB or maybe a Yamnaya remnant.

The problem with the Cetina culture is that it's too late to use to draw conclusions about early Indo-Europeans. 

Hard to say what to make of it. As I understand it, Cetina autosomal DNA was mostly EEF (~60%) but with about 33% WSH. 

Thus far, no J-M283 has turned up in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, or Bell Beaker, but maybe it will eventually. I honestly don't know what the ultimate source of the J-M283 in the Bronze Age Balkans is. 

That Z2118 (PF7589) probably represents a Y-chromosome descendant of the men who provided the WSH element in Cetina.

I dont know how you missed all the fuss about J-L283 in this forum.  I take it as a good example on how little people in general care for haplogroups that are not their own I guess, wich is only natural . So yeah we were Yamnaya and shiet, peasants or not.

Regarding the lone J2b-L283 sample I10206 from Moldova:

1. The Lazaridis supplementary information states "The burial must be attributed to Cernavodă-I or Yamnaya cultures."
2. The sample is not radiocarbon dated, but dated to a range of 2900-2500 BC.
3. The accompanying Nikitin paper's supplementary information shows I10206 as having the least amount of "Core Yamnaya" compared to others in the "Moldova_EBA_Yamna" group, but it still has a large amount:

Sample: I10206
CoreYamna: 83.7%
YUN_CA (Yunatsite of Bulgaria): 16.3%
S.E.: 2.9%

As someone without a horse in the J2b-L283 race, if I had to make an educated guess, I would say J2b-L283 probably got swept into the Balkans from Moldova early on by Core Yamnaya, but was not part of the Serednii Stih / Proto-Yamnaya area where Core Yamnaya developed from.

[targaryen]

The problem with the Cetina culture is that it's too late to use to draw conclusions about early Indo-Europeans. 

Hard to say what to make of it. As I understand it, Cetina autosomal DNA was mostly EEF (~60%) but with about 33% WSH. 

Thus far, no J-M283 has turned up in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, or Bell Beaker, but maybe it will eventually. I honestly don't know what the ultimate source of the J-M283 in the Bronze Age Balkans is. 

That Z2118 (PF7589) probably represents a Y-chromosome descendant of the men who provided the WSH element in Cetina.

I dont know how you missed all the fuss about J-L283 in this forum.  I take it as a good example on how little people in general care for haplogroups that are not their own I guess, wich is only natural . So yeah we were Yamnaya and shiet, peasants or not.

Regarding the lone J2b-L283 sample I10206 from Moldova:

1. The Lazaridis supplementary information states "The burial must be attributed to Cernavodă-I or Yamnaya cultures."
2. The sample is not radiocarbon dated, but dated to a range of 2900-2500 BC.
3. The accompanying Nikitin paper's supplementary information shows I10206 as having the least amount of "Core Yamnaya" compared to others in the "Moldova_EBA_Yamna" group, but it still has a large amount:

Sample: I10206
CoreYamna: 83.7%
YUN_CA (Yunatsite of Bulgaria): 16.3%
S.E.: 2.9%

As someone without a horse in the J2b-L283 race, if I had to make an educated guess, I would say J2b-L283 probably got swept into the Balkans from Moldova early on by Core Yamnaya, but was not part of the Serednii Stih / Proto-Yamnaya area where Core Yamnaya developed from.

No. The most basal L283 clade is in the North Caucasus, and there's another steppe kurgan with non-L283 J2B2 with North Caucasian autosomal DNA. This is from CLVs.

[targaryen]

PF7589 is downstream of L51 and may have come west via the Danube route.

Check out this thread.

What do you think of the R-Z2118 found in the Cetina Culture? It's surrounded by J2B2-L283s which are clearly accompanied by Yamnaya RZ2103s.

Some thought it was an Italic migrant going back, but that seems unlikely to me. It could be BB or maybe a Yamnaya remnant.

The problem with the Cetina culture is that it's too late to use to draw conclusions about early Indo-Europeans. 

Hard to say what to make of it. As I understand it, Cetina autosomal DNA was mostly EEF (~60%) but with about 33% WSH. 

Thus far, no J-M283 has turned up in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, or Bell Beaker, but maybe it will eventually. I honestly don't know what the ultimate source of the J-M283 in the Bronze Age Balkans is. 

That Z2118 (PF7589) probably represents a Y-chromosome descendant of the men who provided the WSH element in Cetina.

Not getting your point. We have a kurgan site with this mixture R1b/J2B2-L283. These are clearly together from Yamnaya.

But yeah, I'm thinking RZ2118 might just be the "southern L51".

[rmstevens2]

What do you think of the R-Z2118 found in the Cetina Culture? It's surrounded by J2B2-L283s which are clearly accompanied by Yamnaya RZ2103s.

Some thought it was an Italic migrant going back, but that seems unlikely to me. It could be BB or maybe a Yamnaya remnant.

The problem with the Cetina culture is that it's too late to use to draw conclusions about early Indo-Europeans. 

Hard to say what to make of it. As I understand it, Cetina autosomal DNA was mostly EEF (~60%) but with about 33% WSH. 

Thus far, no J-M283 has turned up in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, or Bell Beaker, but maybe it will eventually. I honestly don't know what the ultimate source of the J-M283 in the Bronze Age Balkans is. 

That Z2118 (PF7589) probably represents a Y-chromosome descendant of the men who provided the WSH element in Cetina.

Not getting your point. We have a kurgan site with this mixture R1b/J2B2-L283. These are clearly together from Yamnaya.

But yeah, I'm thinking RZ2118 might just be the "southern L51".

The point is that Cetina is too late to tell us much about the Indo-Europeans. I'm not sure how else to explain that.

[rmstevens2]

I dont know how you missed all the fuss about J-L283 in this forum.  I take it as a good example on how little people in general care for haplogroups that are not their own I guess, wich is only natural . So yeah we were Yamnaya and shiet, peasants or not.

Here's how: I don't usually read the J subforum stuff. I barely have time to keep up with R1b stuff. I have to shepherd my time.

Thus far there's one J-L283 from a kurgan that Lazaridis et al said was either Cernavoda or Yamnaya. That's not much, and where is the J-L283 in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker? 

But okay, you've got one, and a pretty tall, sturdy one at that.