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R1b-L51 in Yamnaya: Lazaridis 2024
#1
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Big news, if it stands up under scrutiny and is true. Per the brand new Lazaridis et al preprint, The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans, at least four R1b-L51 have been in found in the steppe pastoralist Yamnaya culture.

Here are the sample numbers (look them up in the paper's xl spreadsheet, Table 1):

I11838
I12823
I6884
I12893

Anyway, if this is true, thank you, God, because for me it represents answered prayer. 

I've just started looking at this paper, so I don't have a lot more to say yet, but let's discuss this. It's the biggest news since Papac et al found that the oldest Corded Ware samples were R1b-L151.
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#2
(04-19-2024, 09:14 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: Big news, if it stands up under scrutiny and is true. Per the brand new Lazaridis et al preprint, The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans, at least four R1b-L51 have been in found in the steppe pastoralist Yamnaya culture.

Here are the sample numbers (look them up in the paper's xl spreadsheet, Table 1):

I11838
I12823
I6884
I12893

Anyway, if this is true, thank you, God, because for me it represents answered prayer. 

I've just started looking at this paper, so I don't have a lot more to say yet, but let's discuss this. It's the biggest news since Papac et al found that the oldest Corded Ware samples were R1b-L151.

Which part of the Steppe are they from?
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#3
(04-19-2024, 09:24 PM)old europe Wrote:
(04-19-2024, 09:14 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: Big news, if it stands up under scrutiny and is true. Per the brand new Lazaridis et al preprint, The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans, at least four R1b-L51 have been in found in the steppe pastoralist Yamnaya culture.

Here are the sample numbers (look them up in the paper's xl spreadsheet, Table 1):

I11838
I12823
I6884
I12893

Anyway, if this is true, thank you, God, because for me it represents answered prayer. 

I've just started looking at this paper, so I don't have a lot more to say yet, but let's discuss this. It's the biggest news since Papac et al found that the oldest Corded Ware samples were R1b-L151.

Which part of the Steppe are they from?

I11838 -  Krasnosamarskoe-4 site (Middle Volga steppe).

I12823 -  Smeeni (Romania, just west of the Black Sea). I think this one might actually be Katakombnaya.

I6884 -  Krestovyi kurgan (Rostov region, Aksay District, near Alitub village).

I12893 -  Idzhil-2 (Republic of Kalmykia, Oktyabrsky District, Idzhil Village).
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- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#4
(04-19-2024, 09:51 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote:
(04-19-2024, 09:24 PM)old europe Wrote:
(04-19-2024, 09:14 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: Big news, if it stands up under scrutiny and is true. Per the brand new Lazaridis et al preprint, The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans, at least four R1b-L51 have been in found in the steppe pastoralist Yamnaya culture.

Here are the sample numbers (look them up in the paper's xl spreadsheet, Table 1):

I11838
I12823
I6884
I12893

Anyway, if this is true, thank you, God, because for me it represents answered prayer. 

I've just started looking at this paper, so I don't have a lot more to say yet, but let's discuss this. It's the biggest news since Papac et al found that the oldest Corded Ware samples were R1b-L151.

Which part of the Steppe are they from?

I11838 -  Krasnosamarskoe-4 site (Middle Volga steppe).

I12823 -  Smeeni (Romania, just west of the Black Sea). I think this one might actually be Katakombnaya.

I6884 -  Krestovyi kurgan (Rostov region, Aksay District, near Alitub village).

I12893 -  Idzhil-2 (Republic of Kalmykia, Oktyabrsky District, Idzhil Village).

It seems to me that finding four L51 samples so widely separated from one another is an indication that R1b-L51 was fairly common among the Yamnaya, at least far more common than we've been led to believe by prior results. If they had all been found in one place, it might have been the result of a founder effect or a kind of odd fluke.

Recall, too, that we have two R1b-P310 (one step downstream from R1b-L51) samples from the steppe pastoralist Afanasievo culture, one from Mongolia and one from China. Afanasievo is virtually identical to Yamnaya in terms of autosomal DNA.
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#5
There's also an R1b-L52 (P310, one step downstream of L51) Yamnaya sample from Zabalj-Medisova-humka (South Bačka District, Žabalj Municipality, Zabalj), Serbia in this new paper: sample I20499, 2880-2633 calBCE. 

So, make that five thus far.
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#6
(04-20-2024, 12:18 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote: There's also an R1b-L52 (P310, one step downstream of L51) Yamnaya sample from Zabalj-Medisova-humka (South Bačka District, Žabalj Municipality, Zabalj), Serbia in this new paper: sample I20499, 2880-2633 calBCE. 

So, make that five thus far.

Here's Figure 8.1 from the Supplementary Information of the new Lazaridis paper. Number 10 is the location where sample I20499 was recovered.

[Image: Sample-I20499-Yamnaya-R-L52-Serbia.jpg]
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#7
@rmstevens2

Thank you! By the way, are there any BAM files now and when can there samples be analyzed on ftdna?
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#8
Here's Figure 7.1 from the Lazaridis Supplementary Information. Number 11 on the map, Smeeni, Romania, is where sample I12823 was recovered.

[Image: Sample-I12823-R1b-L51-Yamnaya-Smeeni-Romania.jpg]
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- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#9
(04-20-2024, 12:39 AM)Desdonas Wrote: @rmstevens2

Thank you! By the way, are there any BAM files now and when can there samples be analyzed on ftdna?

Jdean checked a little while ago and couldn't find any BAM files that are available yet.

I'm hoping FTDNA looks at these samples soon. I posted about this stuff over at FTDNA's Big Y Facebook group.
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- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#10
(04-19-2024, 09:51 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I11838 -  Krasnosamarskoe-4 site (Middle Volga steppe).

I12823 -  Smeeni (Romania, just west of the Black Sea). I think this one might actually be Katakombnaya.

I6884 -  Krestovyi kurgan (Rostov region, Aksay District, near Alitub village).

I12893 -  Idzhil-2 (Republic of Kalmykia, Oktyabrsky District, Idzhil Village).

[Image: GtEivuJ.png]
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U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#11
This is a quicky so there be errors as I sped through it.

[Image: uHwUWjY.png]
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U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#12
I'm not going to go out on that big of a limb here but, I that it is highly unlikely we will ever find R-L151 along the Danube route. The biggest tip is the lack of R1a in any of these Yamnaya samples. Based on the Czech Corded Ware study, it is much more likely that both R-L151 and R1a traveled together from the forest steppe and then founder effects took over from there. It is noteworthy that none of the three radiocarbon tested Yamnaya R-L51 samples are older than the Czech R-L151 samples.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+ PR5365+, Crispino Rocca, b.~1584, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b.~1864, Galicia, Spain
Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b.1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
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#13
It may be a good idea to post a list of the R1b-L51 Yamnaya samples in this new Lazaridis paper we know about thus far.

I11838 -  Krasnosamarskoe-4 site (Middle Volga steppe). R1b-L51, mtDNA U5a1a1.  2851-2498 calBCE.

I12823 -  Smeeni (Romania, just west of the Black Sea). R1b-L51, mtDNA K1b2b. 3300-2500 BCE (estimate from archaeological context).

I6884 -  Krestovyi kurgan (Rostov region, Aksay District, near Alitub village). R1b-L51, mtDNA T1a1. 2852-2500 calBCE.

I12893 -  Idzhil-2 (Republic of Kalmykia, Oktyabrsky District, Idzhil Village). R1b-L51, mtDNA  H13a1a. 3300-2600 BCE (estimate from archaeological context). 

I20499 -  Zabalj-Medisova-humka, Serbia. R1b-L52 (P310), mtDNA U4b1b1. 2880-2633 calBCE.

Anyone see any others I've missed? 
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#14
(04-20-2024, 02:35 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote: It may be a good idea to post a list of the R1b-L51 Yamnaya samples in this new Lazaridis paper we know about thus far.

I11838 -  Krasnosamarskoe-4 site (Middle Volga steppe). R1b-L51, mtDNA U5a1a1.  2851-2498 calBCE.

I12823 -  Smeeni (Romania, just west of the Black Sea). R1b-L51, mtDNA K1b2b. 3300-2500 BCE (estimate from archaeological context).

I6884 -  Krestovyi kurgan (Rostov region, Aksay District, near Alitub village). R1b-L51, mtDNA T1a1. 2852-2500 calBCE.

I12893 -  Idzhil-2 (Republic of Kalmykia, Oktyabrsky District, Idzhil Village). R1b-L51, mtDNA  H13a1a. 3300-2600 BCE (estimate from archaeological context). 

I20499 -  Zabalj-Medisova-humka, Serbia. R1b-L52 (P310), mtDNA U4b1b1. 2880-2633 calBCE.

Anyone see any others I've missed? 

In the main paper

Crihana Veche, Moldova
7.4.3.3 Grave 12:19 (individual ID I10208),  attributed to a sub-adult. Age at death: about 12- 14 months (infant). Anthropological sex: indeterminate. Molecular sex: male, Y-haplogroup R1b (R-L51). The burial is attributed to Yamnaya culture.

The supplemental has him as Z2108 so not L51, so some confusion on this one.
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U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#15
(04-20-2024, 02:32 AM)R.Rocca Wrote: I'm not going to go out on that big of a limb here but, I that it is highly unlikely we will ever find R-L151 along the Danube route. The biggest tip is the lack of R1a in any of these Yamnaya samples. Based on the Czech Corded Ware study, it is much more likely that both R-L151 and R1a traveled together from the forest steppe and then founder effects took over from there. It is noteworthy that none of the three radiocarbon tested Yamnaya R-L51 samples are older than the Czech R-L151 samples.

I'd like to see autosomal profiles on these R1b-L51 Yamnaya samples. I agree with you, but pretty obviously, given how widely separated these samples are geographically, L51 must have been fairly common in Yamnaya.  Of course, the complete absence of L51 in Yamnaya prior to this paper has led us to believe there just was no L51 in Yamnaya. (Kind of the way the absence of R1b-L51 in the initial Corded Ware research paper results led us astray for a long time.)
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