R1b-L51 in Yamnaya: Lazaridis 2024

[jdean]

I like Ringe's original model in 2002. This feels like a cheap Hollywood sequel. Tocharian is Tocharian. It makes no sense to place with Italo-Celtic. Also, Greek/Armenian would have split later. Everything points to a later split. Balto-Slavic/Indo-Iranian split with CW.

The funniest part is that they emit Albanian altogether, because it's inconvenient. If you have faith in your model, you can't just emit things like that

The Ringe 2002 tree is similar to Tree 1 and they explain the issue with Albanian which is in both trees in two separate places labelled 1 and 2.

This is the 2002 version

[rmstevens2]

I think that those who think that Corded Ware was not derived from Yamnaya would argue that their common Sredny Stog ancestor was IE speaking, so that both of the brothers or cousins (CW and Yamnaya) were speaking PIE. 

For me, the argument for Yamnaya>Corded Ware is more genetic and archaeological than linguistic.

I don't think you're understanding the argument. If the split date between Yamnaya and CW was during SS, it would mean the CW languages would have drastically different sound laws than Yamnaya languages. We're talking about 1,000 years difference. That is massive. I.E. Anatolian and Core PIE.  But this is not the case.

It's not just a matter of being " speaking PIE". PIE languages have subdivisions within them that arise over time. Baltic and Slavic are PIE languages, but it's clear that they are much more closely related to each other than other PIE languages. They were together for much longer. The same thing is true with Core PIE languages. They are much more closely related to each other than say Anatolian, which split during the SS era.

So while you might be more interested in the genetics of it (and that's fine), PIE is first and foremost a linguistic theory. And language throws out the window the SS arguments. Those SS arguments make absolutely no sense linguistically. You can't keep people 1,000 years apart but have the exact same language. That's insane.

Forgive my ignorance, but I know I’m not understanding.  If Sredny Stog ended in 3500 BC where does this 1000 years come into play?

 
Thanks for checking the dating. Honestly, it wasn't something I cared enough to check on, because I already think CW was derived from Yamnaya, so I don't need arguments from linguistics to bolster or to refute my point of view.

I was thinking about it later, and it occurred to me that if I was arguing that CW was not derived from Yamnaya, and if there was a lot of time between Sredny Stog and Yamnaya (which evidently there is not), then I would simply posit that there was some population intermediate between Sredny Stog and Yamnaya that was the common ancestor of both Yamnaya and CW, and that the common language was maintained by those groups' proximity to one another on the steppe and their practice of female exogamy.

No big deal, though, because my opinion right now is that CW was derived from Yamnaya. If that turns out to be wrong, that is also no big deal.

[jdean]

Thanks for checking the dating. Honestly, it wasn't something I cared enough to check on, because I already think CW was derived from Yamnaya, so I don't need arguments from linguistics to bolster or to refute my point of view.

I was thinking about it later, and it occurred to me that if I was arguing that CW was not derived from Yamnaya, and if there was a lot of time between Sredny Stog, and Yamnaya (which evidently there is not), then I would simply posit that there was some population intermediate between Sredny Stog and Yamnaya that was the common ancestor of both Yamnaya and CW, and that the common language was maintained by those groups' proximity to one another on the steppe and their practice of female exogamy.

No big deal, though, because my opinion right now is that CW was derived from Yamnaya. If that turns out to be wrong, that is also no big deal.

Seems to me there's a certain amount of splitting hairs going on here from some quarters, these cultures were all living in the same rough place at about the same sort of time (plus probably quite closely related) and isn't time and place more relevant ?

[rmstevens2]

R1a-M417 and R1b-L151 were only frequent where they were frequent and later expanded, I don't know why people don't recognize that fact just like all other important Indo-Europeanized clades like I1, E-V13, other Slav I2 are not desperately trying to find precursors in the first Indo-European populations of the steppe. You still can find some posterior isolated individuals but it's quite obvious now that R1a-M417 and R1b-L151 were not statistically frequent nor hegemonic in the early steppe groups. I always told basal J1 clades were founders and constituents of the first Indo-European populations in the steppe and we can find J1 individuals in all steppe clines because they were associated with the earlier Southern CHG-IRAN source, we can find J1 matches in the first steppe groups in Russia, Ukraine, Mongolia as R1b-V1636 and R1b-Z2103 fellow travellers, but not R1a-M417, R1b-L151, I1, E-V13 because they were mainly in the forests where they later built up organized clusters.

Exactly. Chasing ghosts in the steppe. Some of these lineages were not that popular back then.

Exactly? You mean like J1? Pretty infrequent among the early Indo-Europeans, pretty hard to prove it had much to do with PIE. Evidently it had nothing to do with the Indo-Europeanization of Europe. 

Where is J1 in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, and Bell Beaker? 

There is one in Afanasievo, and that's great, but otherwise J1 is MIA among the early Indo-Europeans. With the exception of three Mesolithic HGs in Karelia, J-M267 (J1) looks pretty Middle Eastern. 

Pretty obviously, R1b-L151 and R1a-M417 must have had a fairly substantial presence on the steppe. Their populations had to have time to reach sufficient levels to make what they accomplished via Yamnaya and Corded Ware possible. That buildup must have occurred on the steppe.

RCO is claiming that J-M267 had a big part to play among the early Indo-Europeans and that R1b-L151 and R1a-M417 were "Indo-Europeanized clades". There is no evidence for either of those claims. It takes a lot of chutzpah to come over to a thread in the R1b-L51 subforum, assert that one's own non-R1b haplogroup was among the original Indo-Europeans, and then claim that L51 was not but was merely "Indo-Europeanized". I gave a pretty mild and pacific answer to that at first, but there is plenty more to say if the need arises. 

What's the current score for Yamnaya?

L51: 5

J1: 0

[rmstevens2]

This graphic might help provide some perspective on the original early Indo-Europeans. Who can imagine that Z2103 was an original IE clade but L51 was not?

Seriously? 

[Sephesakueu]

R1a-M417 and R1b-L151 were only frequent where they were frequent and later expanded, I don't know why people don't recognize that fact just like all other important Indo-Europeanized clades like I1, E-V13, other Slav I2 are not desperately trying to find precursors in the first Indo-European populations of the steppe. You still can find some posterior isolated individuals but it's quite obvious now that R1a-M417 and R1b-L151 were not statistically frequent nor hegemonic in the early steppe groups. I always told basal J1 clades were founders and constituents of the first Indo-European populations in the steppe and we can find J1 individuals in all steppe clines because they were associated with the earlier Southern CHG-IRAN source, we can find J1 matches in the first steppe groups in Russia, Ukraine, Mongolia as R1b-V1636 and R1b-Z2103 fellow travellers, but not R1a-M417, R1b-L151, I1, E-V13 because they were mainly in the forests where they later built up organized clusters.

Exactly. Chasing ghosts in the steppe. Some of these lineages were not that popular back then.

Exactly? You mean like J1? Pretty infrequent among the early Indo-Europeans, pretty hard to prove it had much to do with PIE. Evidently it had nothing to do with the Indo-Europeanization of Europe. 

Where is J1 in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, and Bell Beaker? 

There is one in Afanasievo, and that's great, but otherwise J1 is MIA among the early Indo-Europeans. With the exception of three Mesolithic HGs in Karelia, J-M267 (J1) looks pretty Middle Eastern. 

Pretty obviously, R1b-L151 and R1a-M417 must have had a fairly substantial presence on the steppe. Their populations had to have time to reach sufficient levels to make what they accomplished via Yamnaya and Corded Ware possible. That buildup must have occurred on the steppe.

RCO is claiming that J-M267 had a big part to play among the early Indo-Europeans and that R1b-L151 and R1a-M417 were "Indo-Europeanized clades". There is no evidence for either of those claims. It takes a lot of chutzpah to come over to a thread in the R1b-L51 subforum, assert that one's own non-R1b haplogroup was among the original Indo-Europeans, and then claim that L51 was not but was merely "Indo-Europeanized". I gave a pretty mild and pacific answer to that at first, but there is plenty more to say if the need arises. 

What's the current score for Yamnaya?

L51: 5

J1: 0

RCO is right , not just J1 but J2 also were along I2a elite rulling over R1s.
https://twitter.com/Sulkalmakh/status/17...4388766093

[targaryen]

Also, worth mentioning that linguistics points to a non-uniform CW people. Essentially 4 waves of Yamnaya -> CW migrations

(1) R1b-L51 Italo-Celtic who then later become Bell Beaker
(2) Mixture of R1b/R1a Germanic peoples
(3) Pure R1a carriers who later become Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranian
(4) Eastward expansion of some of these R1as to become Indo-Iranian

The last genetic papers mentioned a 200 period of migrations over which these waves took place.

What surprises me about this is how they're all very similar levels of steppe:EEF.

[Kaltmeister]

RCO is right , not just J1 but J2 also were along I2a the gigachad elite rulling over less robust less chad R1s with their narrow corded skulls.
https://twitter.com/Sulkalmakh/status/17...4388766093

Without assigning any Y-haplogroups - it is true that the elite is always a minority. Aristocracy initially comprises typically between 5 and 20% of the population. It comes into power by force, and it arises when a small group of invaders is military so superior, that it can layer and control a much larger population. It is also an interesting phenomenon that the layered lower class often takes (on an evolutionary level) the most advantage from this constellation: They typically grow in numbers, while the upper class tends to stagnate or to decline. Finally the social barrier might break up, members of the lower class enter the aristocracy, finally replacing the old elite. A good and well documented example is the history of the Roman Republic.

[R.Rocca]

It’s funny that “J1 = Original PIE” is still being pitched as a real option. The Lazaridis paper clearly calls out Indo-Anatolian and Indo-European cultural units and associated Y-haplogroups and not a single mention about J1. For those that like to parrot your favorite poster and have not read the paper itself, let me recap. The paper shows that the Y-haplogroup associated with the CLV component which is likely responsible for Indo-Anatolian was R-V1636. Haplogroup I-L699 was prevalent among the Serdenii Stih, and in the Don Yamnaya. The Core Yamnaya belonged primarily to haplogroup L23, more specifically Z2103 sub-lineage. The L51 lineage and R1a dominated Corded Ware and the former dominated Bell Beaker.

[RCO]

The J1 in Afanasievo (SHT002) was a core founder member of the original steppe stock with strong IBD connections between Central Mongolia and Southern Russia, between Yamnaya and Afanasievo in Ringbauer's article (Fig. 5).

We now identify IBD signals across all length scales, including several shared IBD segments even longer than 20 cM (Extended Data Fig. 3). Such long IBD links must be recent as recombination ends an IBD segment ~20 cM long on average every five meiosis. This long IBD sharing signal, at the same level as between various Yamnaya groups (Fig. 4), therefore clearly indicates that ancient individuals from Afanasievo contexts descend from people who migrated at most a few generations earlier across vast distances of the Eurasian Steppe.

Increased individual mobility in Eneolithic and Early Bronze Age Eurasian Steppe groups is also reflected in a pair of individuals associated with the Afanasievo culture that were buried 1,410 km apart, one in present-day Central Mongolia and one in Southern Russia, who share several long IBD segments (Fig. 5a,c). We identified four IBD segments 20–40 cM long, a distinctive signal of close biological relatedness typical of about fifth-degree relatives (Fig. 5c,d). Previous work showed that both individuals have a genetic profile typical for Afanasievo individuals and here this close biological link demonstrates that at least one individual in the chain of relatives between them must have travelled several hundreds of kilometres in their lifetime.

Accurate detection of identity-by-descent segments in human ancient DNA
Harald Ringbauer. Dec 2023.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-023-01582-w

When we investigate the J1 presence, the basal diversity, the locational diversity, the robustness of ancient phylogenetic nodes, the varied frequencies of J1 clades in the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Mesopotamia, Northern Iran (almost unsampled) and in all movements into the steppe, Khvalynsk, Don, Revova kurgan in Ukraine, Afanasievo, we can always find J1 clades/matches between the South and the North, the East and the West where Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Indo-Anatolian populations were found. J1 is always found in the first primeval, pristine, primordial and principal Indo-Anatolian and Indo-European core regions. Let's wait for more samples in the new paper of Ayshin Ghalichi, Sabine Reinhold, Wolfgang Haak and Christina Warinner: Bioarchaeology of Innovations – The 4th/3rd Millennium BC in the Caucasus and Beyond, we saw the maps in the International Conference The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC, I think more J1 and J2 and some basal types of R1b will be found and related to the steppe again.

[Quint]

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-BY90328/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y136727/

The J1 in Afanasievo looks like an EHG lineage to me, similar to the Karelia and modern Finnish samples. The Tatar sample suggests it may have entered the Repin population somewhere in the Volga-Ural region. There are also two western samples though, so it may have been present in western Yamnaya as well.

[rmstevens2]

RCO is right , not just J1 but J2 also were along I2a the gigachad elite rulling over less robust less chad R1s with their narrow corded skulls.
https://twitter.com/Sulkalmakh/status/17...4388766093

What evidence of that nonsense is there? None whatsoever.

Peruse J2-M172 in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections and in its Time Tree. Where does it appear in any cultural context regarded as PIE? Look at J1-M267, as well. The IE connection is extremely weak. One Afanasievo sample. Okay, that's not nothing, but it's not much, and certainly not enough to stake a claim to original IE status. 

Where are J1 and J2 in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, or Bell Beaker?

[rmstevens2]

RCO is right , not just J1 but J2 also were along I2a the gigachad elite rulling over less robust less chad R1s with their narrow corded skulls.
https://twitter.com/Sulkalmakh/status/17...4388766093

Without assigning any Y-haplogroups - it is true that the elite is always a minority. Aristocracy initially comprises typically between 5 and 20% of the population. It comes into power by force, and it arises when a small group of invaders is military so superior, that it can layer and control a much larger population. It is also an interesting phenomenon that the layered lower class often takes (on an evolutionary level) the most advantage from this constellation: They typically grow in numbers, while the upper class tends to stagnate or to decline. Finally the social barrier might break up, members of the lower class enter the aristocracy, finally replacing the old elite. A good and well documented example is the history of the Roman Republic.

When staking outsized claims for a Y-DNA haplogroup that appears numerically unsuccessful in a particular region and among a particular population, the thing to do is elevate its members to the status of a ruling "elite". That relieves one of the necessity of finding much evidence of them. 

Aha! The members of that haplogroup must have been the numerically tiny "elite"! That's why there aren't that many of them (if any)!

J1 and J2 must have really been seriously "elite" among the early Indo-Europeans - they were so elite and so few in numbers you can't find them. A kind of absentee IE ruling elite. Looks like they were phoning it in from Iran and elsewhere in the Middle East.

[Ebizur]

RCO is right , not just J1 but J2 also were along I2a the gigachad elite rulling over less robust less chad R1s with their narrow corded skulls.
https://twitter.com/Sulkalmakh/status/17...4388766093

What evidence of that nonsense is there? None whatsoever.

I do recall reading a report from a reliable source in which average morphological differences between southerly/coastal/riverine steppe populations (whose males are now known to have belonged mainly to Y-DNA haplogroup I2) and northerly/inland steppe populations (whose males are now known to have belonged mainly to Y-DNA haplogroup R1) have been described. However, the trend is the precise opposite of that claimed by Sephesakueu; it is the coastal, I2-heavy groups who have been found to exhibit "Mediterranean"-like morphological tendencies (gracile skeleton, etc.), and it is the inland, R1-heavy groups who have been found to exhibit "Uralian"-like morphological tendencies (robust skeleton, etc.).

[Sephesakueu]

RCO is right , not just J1 but J2 also were along I2a the gigachad elite rulling over less robust less chad R1s with their narrow corded skulls.
https://twitter.com/Sulkalmakh/status/17...4388766093

Without assigning any Y-haplogroups - it is true that the elite is always a minority. Aristocracy initially comprises typically between 5 and 20% of the population. It comes into power by force, and it arises when a small group of invaders is military so superior, that it can layer and control a much larger population. It is also an interesting phenomenon that the layered lower class often takes (on an evolutionary level) the most advantage from this constellation: They typically grow in numbers, while the upper class tends to stagnate or to decline. Finally the social barrier might break up, members of the lower class enter the aristocracy, finally replacing the old elite. A good and well documented example is the history of the Roman Republic.

When staking outsized claims for a Y-DNA haplogroup that appears numerically unsuccessful in a particular region and among a particular population, the thing to do is elevate its members to the status of a ruling "elite". That relieves one of the necessity of finding much evidence of them. 

Aha! The members of that haplogroup must have been the numerically tiny "elite"! That's why there aren't that many of them (if any)!

J1 and J2 must have really been seriously "elite" among the early Indo-Europeans - they were so elite and so few in numbers you can't find them. A kind of absentee IE ruling elite. Looks like they were phoning it in from Iran and elsewhere in the Middle East.

Look man, I wasn't the one to put that J2a dude in the central burial of the kurgan.
The "midle eastener" ,caucasian origin or just non local origin for part of proto indo european/ sredny stog aristocracy is clear, wich makes a lot of sense actually.