R1b-L51 in Yamnaya: Lazaridis 2024

[ArmandoR1b]

I0429, 3339-2918 calBCE, Lopatino, Sok River, Samara also has no-calls for CTS1078/Z2103, PF7575/Z2104, S20902 but is derived for Z2105

I0429 and I0443 are both from Lopatino but I0429 is older. Due to the no-calls we have no idea if they share a Z2103 ancestor.

I hope they publish the BAM files of Lazaridis et al. 2024 and Nikita et al. 2024 soon so the older R-L23 specimens can be analyzed by us, YFull and FTDNA.

[Dewsloth]

The issue with post-3000 BC samples from either side is also that there could have been not just earlier, but also later contacts. Say Yamnaya (core) expanded West and overrolled the actual ancestral group for the Western corded decorated groups. That would make outlier R-Z2103 to the West and some picked up R-L51 to the East possible, especially after the Yamnaya (core) expansion.
We really need to find the ancestral Pre-CW group with R-M417 and presumably R-L51 as well, that's the key issue.

I think we know where at least some members of that group can be found: in the CWC-X (Pre-Corded) Horizon in Małopolska, specifically at the two CWC-X burial sites at Srednia and Hubinek, c. 3000-2900 BC.

My own opinion is that the males there will be R1b-L151, because L151 thus far is the oldest of the oldest CWC in Papac's Bohemia_CW_Early. R1a-M417 was still farther east and became part of CW later, which is what shows in Papac's data.

Food for thought: The oldest Bohemian Corded Ware sample from the Papac study is VLI076 with a mid-point date of 2960 BC, which is the only Bohemian sample that clustered within the Yamnaya group. Unfortunately it is a female sample, so obviously no Y-DNA. I suspect radio isotope values would show she is an immigrant. Sample STD003 is also a female and older than the male samples at a 2950 BC midpoint. Interestingly, she had no steppe ancestry, so the opposite of female VLI076.

Both U106 RISE98 and P312>DF19>Z302 I5748 share decent IBD chunks with VLI076.
If anyone has a favorite other (R1a?) sample, I could check the same way.  These are sorted in chron order:

Show Content

Spoiler
IBD, ID, Site, ybp, date range, assigned culture, m/f
13 RISE507.508.merge River Kuyum 5052 3323-2932 calBCE (4433±21 BP) [R_combine: (4423±29 BP, OxA-31219); (4442±29 BP, OxA-31220)] Russia_Afanasievo.SG F
16 SHT001 Bayankhongor, Shatar Chuluu 5009 3320-2918 calBCE (4415±31 BP, OxA-36222) Mongolia_Bayankhongor_EBA M
33 VLI076 Bohemia, Vliněves 4906 3018-2899 calBCE (4340±25 BP, MAMS-45799) Czech_CordedWare F
16 ILK001 Ilatka 4773 2900-2701 calBCE (4221±22 BP, MAMS-30072) Ukraine_GlobularAmphora M
12 RISE1162 Koszyce, site 3 4765 2912-2676 calBCE (4230±36 BP) Poland_Koszyce_GlobularAmphora.SG_daughter.RISE1170.SG.sister.RISE1164.SG M
13 RISE1170 Koszyce, site 3 4754 2900-2696 calBCE (4213±26 BP) Poland_Koszyce_GlobularAmphora.SG F
14 BLS002 Bohemia, Blšany 4692 2872-2626 calBCE (4141±22 BP, MAMS-41370) Czech_N_GlobularAmphora F
24 Ardu2 Ardu, Harju 4652 2872-2501 calBCE (4110±40 BP, Poz-10824) Estonia_CordedWare.SG_o2 M
13 Ardu1 Ardu, Harju 4652 2872-2501 calBCE (4110±40 BP, Poz-10824) Estonia_CordedWare.SG M
12 HAN004 Moscow, Khanevo 4511 2837-2467 calBCE (4036±37 BP, UBA-41619) Russia_Moscow_Fatyanovo_BA.SG M
22 VLI010 Bohemia, Vliněves 4483 2621-2470 calBCE (4027±25 BP, MAMS-38472) Czech_CordedWare F
12 PRU003 Bohemia 4427 2570-2348 calBCE (3957±24 BP, MAMS-30801) Czech_BellBeaker F
43 MA973 Kursi, Jõgeva 4416 2575-2307 calBCE (3960±40 BP, Poz-10825) Estonia_CordedWare.SG M
13 N44 Pikutkowo 4400 2571-2305 calBCE (3950±35 BP, Poz-77329) Poland_CordedWare_3.SG F
12 KON004 Bohemia, Konobrže 4398 2567-2344 calBCE (3947±24 BP, MAMS-45788) Czech_CordedWare F
13 I13467 Central Bohemia, Prague 5, Prague-Stodůlky (Malá Ohrada site) 4289 2457-2209 calBCE (3860±25 BP, PSUAMS-10090) Czech_CordedWare M
13 I5512 England, Wiltshire, Netheravon, Flying School 4250 2800-1800 BCE England_BellBeaker F
13 pcw260 Southeastern Poland, Pełczyska 4237 2455-2147 calBCE (3830±35 BP, Poz-34734) Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker.SG F
22 KO1004 Bohemia, Kolín II 4166 2291-2140 calBCE (3787±24 BP, MAMS-30783) Czech_BellBeaker M
18 I4889 Prague 8, Kobylisy, Ke Stírce Street 4131 2284-2056 calBCE (3765±20 BP, PSUAMS-2847) Czech_BellBeaker M
15 I2568 Scotland, Dryburn Bridge 4113 2288-2037 calBCE (3755±35 BP, SUERC-4078) Scotland_C_EBA_mediumhighEEF M
15 I4895 Prague 5, Jinonice, Butovická Street 4106 2276-2042 calBCE (3750±20 BP, PSUAMS-2852) Czech_BellBeaker M
** RISE98 L Beddinge 56 4082 2278-2032 calBCE (3736±32 BP, OxA-28987) Sweden_LN.SG M

33 VLI076 Bohemia, Vliněves 4906 3018-2899 calBCE (4340±25 BP, MAMS-45799) Czech_CordedWare F
23 I0438 Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Samara River, Luzkhi I 4785 3020-2631 calBCE (4254±61 BP, AA-47807) Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya M
24 I10565 Bateni 4726 2889-2668 calBCE (4186±27 BP, OxA-31221) Russia_Afanasievo F
16 STD002 Bohemia, Stadice 4720 2885-2639 calBCE (4177±25 BP, MAMS-45792) Czech_CordedWare M
33 VLI067 Bohemia, Vliněves 4718 2883-2637 calBCE (4173±24 BP, MAMS-41360) Czech_CordedWare F
61 poz81 Oblaczkowo 4702 2881-2627 calBCE (4160±35 BP, Poz-36250) Poland_CordedWare.SG M
14 I0371 Samara Oblast, Volga River Valley, Sok River, Grachevka 4678 2871-2581 calBCE (4130±30 BP, Beta-392488) Russia_MBA_Poltavka M
37 TRM006 Bohemia, Trmice 4644 2862-2573 calBCE (4105±25 BP, MAMS-45796) Czech_CordedWare M
13 TRM003 Bohemia, Trmice 4620 2854-2501 calBCE (4093±24 BP, MAMS-45794) Czech_CordedWare F
17 I0103 Esperstedt 4472 2617-2461 calBCE (4000±31 BP, MAMS-21488) Germany_CordedWare F
74 CBV95 Hauts-de-France (North), Ciry_Salsogne, La Bouche-à-Vesle 4447 2575-2350 calBCE (3970±30 BP, GrA-32767) France_HautsDeFrance_LN.SG M
27 BOL003 Tver, Bolshnevo 3 4414 2573-2342 calBCE (3956±34 BP, UBA-41615) Russia_Tver_Fatyanovo_BA.SG M
38 pcw041 Southeastern Poland, Święte 4400 2571-2305 calBCE (3950±35 BP, Poz-90778) Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG_father.or.son.pcw040.SG M
14 pcw040 Southeastern Poland, Święte 4400 2571-2305 calBCE (3950±35 BP, Poz-90777) Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG M
12 I0108 Rothenschirmbach 4399 2575-2297 calBCE (3953±47 BP, Erl-8710) Germany_BellBeaker F
22 KON004 Bohemia, Konobrže 4398 2567-2344 calBCE (3947±24 BP, MAMS-45788) Czech_CordedWare F
** I5748 Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn 4383 2579-2211 calBCE (3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C) Netherlands_BellBeaker M

[alanarchae]

Does anyone have any links to anything that looks at the absolute chronology of the spewed of Yamnaya (in the archaeological culture sense) across the euro steppes? I.e. comparing dates from the Volga, Don, Dnieper, Dniester etc. Is it still clear that Yamnaya is earliest around the Volga and later in the ukraine stepper? It’s usually though unit to have reached ‘old Europe’ until 3000-2900BC.

[rmstevens2]

Does anyone have any links to anything that looks at the absolute chronology of the spewed of Yamnaya (in the archaeological culture sense) across the euro steppes?  I.e. comparing dates from the Volga, Don, Dnieper, Dniester etc. Is it still clear that Yamnaya is earliest around the Volga and later in the ukraine stepper? It’s usually though unit to have reached ‘old Europe’ until 3000-2900BC.

It would be nice to have data like that in a convenient, searchable place. Does anyone know of such a source? 

Or do we need to go back and search all the Yamnaya-related papers, beginning with Haak et al in 2015?

[R.Rocca]

I think we know where at least some members of that group can be found: in the CWC-X (Pre-Corded) Horizon in Małopolska, specifically at the two CWC-X burial sites at Srednia and Hubinek, c. 3000-2900 BC.

My own opinion is that the males there will be R1b-L151, because L151 thus far is the oldest of the oldest CWC in Papac's Bohemia_CW_Early. R1a-M417 was still farther east and became part of CW later, which is what shows in Papac's data.

Food for thought: The oldest Bohemian Corded Ware sample from the Papac study is VLI076 with a mid-point date of 2960 BC, which is the only Bohemian sample that clustered within the Yamnaya group. Unfortunately it is a female sample, so obviously no Y-DNA. I suspect radio isotope values would show she is an immigrant. Sample STD003 is also a female and older than the male samples at a 2950 BC midpoint. Interestingly, she had no steppe ancestry, so the opposite of female VLI076.

True, but some of the males in Papac's Bohemia_CW_Early group were close, like PNL001, that R1b-U106 guy dated 2914-2879 calBC, and OBR003, R1b-L151 (xP312xU106), 2911-2875 calBC. 

Correct, but my reason for posting was to remind folks that Corded Ware in Bohemia is slightly older than the males we always seem to reference. Also, noteworthy is that the grave of VLI076, the female that plots with Yamnaya on the PCA, was aceramic.

[rmstevens2]

Food for thought: The oldest Bohemian Corded Ware sample from the Papac study is VLI076 with a mid-point date of 2960 BC, which is the only Bohemian sample that clustered within the Yamnaya group. Unfortunately it is a female sample, so obviously no Y-DNA. I suspect radio isotope values would show she is an immigrant. Sample STD003 is also a female and older than the male samples at a 2950 BC midpoint. Interestingly, she had no steppe ancestry, so the opposite of female VLI076.

True, but some of the males in Papac's Bohemia_CW_Early group were close, like PNL001, that R1b-U106 guy dated 2914-2879 calBC, and OBR003, R1b-L151 (xP312xU106), 2911-2875 calBC. 

Correct, but my reason for posting was to remind folks that Corded Ware in Bohemia is slightly older than the males we always seem to reference. Also, noteworthy is that the grave of VLI076, the female that plots with Yamnaya on the PCA, was aceramic.

Right, and VLI076 wasn't there by herself when she was alive. Undoubtedly there were male CWs there with her, but she died, was buried there, and her skeleton was ultimately tested by Papac et al, who listed her on page 55 of the Supplementary Material as aged 40-60 ("maturus"). It's too bad we didn't get a male dated that far back, as well.

I don't know if you saw it, but on Day 4 of the conference in Budapest, David Reich used the Papac CW PCA, pointed out that several females had higher Yamnaya DNA than some of the males and suggested that perhaps that is how Yamnaya DNA got into CW at such high levels, despite the fact that the dominant Y haplogroups of the two cultures differ. I think he referred to it as a "wave of Yamnaya females". I respect David Reich very much, but, honestly, I thought that was ill considered at best, given what one can see on the PCA, i.e., that there are several males on it that are very high in Yamnaya DNA - nearly as high as VLI076 - and that L151 is just two steps downstream of L51, which is the sibling of Z2103 under L23. I think Dr. Reich should realize that Yamnaya was not all Z2103 everywhere. 

VLI076 was recovered at Vliněves, Bohemia, where four R1b-L151 and one R1b-P310 in Papac's Bohemia_CW_Early group were recovered. Only one non-R1b from Bohemia_CW_Early was reported from that location, and that one was low coverage sample VLI071, who is reported as R1a (with a question mark).

[Konieczny]

I0429, 3339-2918 calBCE, Lopatino, Sok River, Samara also has no-calls for CTS1078/Z2103, PF7575/Z2104, S20902 but is derived for Z2105

I0429 and I0443 are both from Lopatino but I0429 is older. Due to the no-calls we have no idea if they share a Z2103 ancestor.

I hope they publish the BAM files of Nikita et al. 2024 soon so the older R-L23 specimens can be analyzed by us, YFull and FTDNA.

Good catch. You have a good eye for details. I would have never expected the one sample being so old. I'm glad you're going to glean the Nikita paper for details, hopefully we will have those results soon.

[rmstevens2]

I've got a question regarding the conference in Budapest that just ended this past Saturday. In Razib Khan's recent interview of Kristian Kristiansen, Kristiansen said Volker Heyd would speak at the conference and describe how "Yamnaya transformed into Corded Ware" in SE Poland.

I didn't watch every minute of the livestreaming of that conference, but I surfed through the video of it looking for Heyd's presentation. I never found it.

Did I simply miss it? Did Heyd speak at the conference? If so, on what day?

[RBHeadge]

I'm still a couple days behind in watching the conference. I'll let you know if I find it.

[Orentil]

I've got a question regarding the conference in Budapest that just ended this past Saturday. In Razib Khan's recent interview of Kristian Kristiansen, Kristiansen said Volker Heyd would speak at the conference and describe how "Yamnaya transformed into Corded Ware" in SE Poland.

I didn't watch every minute of the livestreaming of that conference, but I surfed through the video of it looking for Heyd's presentation. I never found it.

Did I simply miss it? Did Heyd speak at the conference? If so, on what day?

Volker Heyd just gave the introduction and concluded the meeting and raised some questions. See here for the program and the speakers/titles:
https://www.transformeurope2budapest2024...-programme

[alanarchae]

I was reading one of the more recent looks at the absolute chronology of Yamnaya and the thing that really stood out is the earliest Yamnaya culture burial dates were scattered all through the Euro steppes and the usual idea that they expanded from the Volga area actually had no support in terms of absolute dating. The earlier ones are both rare and scattered widely. So it’s no longer a given that Yamnaya culture was borne on the Volga. It could have been but there is no proof it was. The vast bulk (80%+) are not early. It’s almost like there was a small wave in the 3300-3200BC era then a much bigger one nearer 3000BC.

[rmstevens2]

I've got a question regarding the conference in Budapest that just ended this past Saturday. In Razib Khan's recent interview of Kristian Kristiansen, Kristiansen said Volker Heyd would speak at the conference and describe how "Yamnaya transformed into Corded Ware" in SE Poland.

I didn't watch every minute of the livestreaming of that conference, but I surfed through the video of it looking for Heyd's presentation. I never found it.

Did I simply miss it? Did Heyd speak at the conference? If so, on what day?

Volker Heyd just gave the introduction and concluded the meeting and raised some questions. See here for the program and the speakers/titles:
https://www.transformeurope2budapest2024...-programme

Thanks. I saw his face in the videos, but I never saw a presentation by him. Maybe he is saving his ideas on the formation of Corded Ware for a new paper.

I hope so. I really enjoy his papers.

[rmstevens2]

I guess the big question raised by this new Lazaridis preprint is whether or not we who are of R1b-L51 Y-chromosome descent should think of ourselves as belonging to a Y-chromosome line that descends from Yamnaya. In other words, going straight back to the third millennium from son to father and so on, does each of us arrive at a Yamnaya male ancestor?

We know already that our Y chromosome descent back in the third millennium BC looks like this: Corded Ware>Bell Beaker.

So, should we now think of it as this: Yamnaya>Corded Ware>Bell Beaker? (And beyond that, as perhaps Sredny Stog>Yamnaya>Corded Ware>Bell Beaker?)

I tend to think so, but I know I could be wrong. Some folks think that Corded Ware was not derived from Yamnaya, but that Yamnaya and Corded Ware were more or less contemporary siblings or cousins descended from a common ancestor, like Sredny Stog.  

The five R1b-L51 Yamnayans (including one L52) in this new preprint aren't as early as Papac's R1b-L151 Bohemia_CW_Early guys, so certainly all of them are derived for something downstream of L51 as least as far along as L151. They could actually be R1b-PF7589, or FT377377, or FT186340, or FT123498, or something downstream of any of those. Or they could be L151 or something downstream of it. Personally, I would be absolutely thrilled if at least one of them turns out to be P312. Frankly, I would be really surprised if that were the case, but it would be one heckuva pleasant surprise. 

Anyway, now that L51 and L52 (aka P310) have shown up in Yamnaya, there is no reason to think there was no L151 in Yamnaya, just two steps downstream of L51 (L51>L52>L151) and just a single step downstream of L52. So, the old Y-DNA barrier to Yamnaya ancestry (i.e., "There is no L51 in Yamnaya!") is gone. Lazaridis et al's new preprint has smashed it. 

What do you all think?

[targaryen]

 Some folks think that Corded Ware was not derived from Yamnaya, but that Yamnaya and Corded Ware were more or less contemporary siblings or cousins descended from a common ancestor, like Sredny Stog.  

And again that makes 0 sense linguistically. Parallel populations = Different/Divergent Languages. Core PIE was a single language with 0 differences.

Language is the field that kept insisting on Anatolians having steppe ancestry when literally 0 Anatolian samples for a decade showed steppe. And it insisted on a pre-Yamnaya steppe component, since it split 4500 BC to 4000 BC. Language is also the field that kept insisting Tocharians was slightly more archaic than other PIE languages, and voila Afanasievo branched out a few hundred years before Yamnaya.

Language also insisted that eventually we would find even R1b-L51 in Yamnaya because Core PIE is 3000 BC. Everything points to this. Placing Core PIE in Sredny Stog is beyond illogical at this point. It makes 0 sense from 100 different perspectives. Even genetically, SS was actually very diverse. Yamnaya is a very specific autosomal variant of SS, which CW also belongs to.

[rmstevens2]

 Some folks think that Corded Ware was not derived from Yamnaya, but that Yamnaya and Corded Ware were more or less contemporary siblings or cousins descended from a common ancestor, like Sredny Stog.  

And again that makes 0 sense linguistically. Parallel populations = Different/Divergent Languages. Core PIE was a single language with 0 differences.

Language is the field that kept insisting on Anatolians having steppe ancestry when literally 0 Anatolian samples for a decade showed steppe. And it insisted on a pre-Yamnaya steppe component, since it split 4500 BC to 4000 BC. Language is also the field that kept insisting Tocharians was slightly more archaic than other PIE languages, and voila Afanasievo branched out a few hundred years before Yamnaya.

Language also insisted that eventually we would find even R1b-L51 in Yamnaya because Core PIE is 3000 BC. Everything points to this. Placing Core PIE in Sredny Stog is beyond illogical at this point. It makes 0 sense from 100 different perspectives. Even genetically, SS was actually very diverse. Yamnaya is a very specific autosomal variant of SS, which CW also belongs to.

I think that those who think that Corded Ware was not derived from Yamnaya would argue that their common Sredny Stog ancestor was IE speaking, so that both of the brothers or cousins (CW and Yamnaya) were speaking PIE. 

For me, the argument for Yamnaya>Corded Ware is more genetic and archaeological than linguistic.