J2b-L283

[Moeca]

You require this map as well

regarding post #30

[targaryen]

Nothing surprising about that J2b2. Illyrians had shared IBD with samples from Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia.

[Riverman]

MBG006.A0101.TF1 is J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

Unfortunately the coverage is not good enough for something more specific and I do not currently have time to check it thoroughly. But he is negative at: J-Z1297, J-Z631, J-Z38241, J-Y75277

As he's likely Y15058, Cetina expansion in Slovenia and local contacts with pre-Tumulus Culture or a later eastern Hallstatt movement from this area seems like a good candidate.

Here we go ...
A J-L283 among Halstatt populations in South-Western Germany during BCE times (EIA), if/when confirmed by the paper, this is a major finding.
I've claimed for years that some J-Z597 lineages made it to south-Germany during EIA.
Considering Z597+ and Z1297- ... remaining "main" possibilities are Y15058 or FT31120 (not a heavily successfull lineage, but it is attested in France and Switzerland).

Some Y15058 are indeed to be expected among Eastern-Hallstatt ... this is also the case for Z631 and Y27522 aswell (but here Z1297-).
All those lineages were likely part of eastern Hallstatt related expansions.

The dating of the sample will be quite interesting.
Truth to be said, I wasn't expecting a sample "that western, that early" ... or I would have expected them among the cremating sub-populations.

The J-L283 are not very likely to behind any major cremating complex, because they being connected to the Adriatic groups which rarely if ever cremated their dead, unless they were completely overshadowed by Northern foreigners. 

I'm pretty sure that both J-L283 and E-V13 made it to the German Danubian zone and of these two its clearly E-V13, not J-L283, which has a strong bias towards cremation. Basically everywhere the two meet you can bet on E-V13 cremating and J-L283 using inhumation.

[Archetype0ne]

MBG006.A0101.TF1 is J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

Unfortunately the coverage is not good enough for something more specific and I do not currently have time to check it thoroughly. But he is negative at: J-Z1297, J-Z631, J-Z38241, J-Y75277

As he's likely Y15058, Cetina expansion in Slovenia and local contacts with pre-Tumulus Culture or a later eastern Hallstatt movement from this area seems like a good candidate.

Here we go ...
A J-L283 among Halstatt populations in South-Western Germany during BCE times (EIA), if/when confirmed by the paper, this is a major finding.
I've claimed for years that some J-Z597 lineages made it to south-Germany during EIA.
Considering Z597+ and Z1297- ... remaining "main" possibilities are Y15058 or FT31120 (not a heavily successfull lineage, but it is attested in France and Switzerland).

Some Y15058 are indeed to be expected among Eastern-Hallstatt ... this is also the case for Z631 and Y27522 aswell (but here Z1297-).
All those lineages were likely part of eastern Hallstatt related expansions.

The dating of the sample will be quite interesting.
Truth to be said, I wasn't expecting a sample "that western, that early" ... or I would have expected them among the cremating sub-populations.

The J-L283 are not very likely to behind any major cremating complex, because they being connected to the Adriatic groups which rarely if ever cremated their dead, unless they were completely overshadowed by Northern foreigners. 

I'm pretty sure that both J-L283 and E-V13 made it to the German Danubian zone and of these two its clearly E-V13, not J-L283, which has a strong bias towards cremation. Basically everywhere the two meet you can bet on E-V13 cremating and J-L283 using inhumation.

Culturally, what are the Balkan L283 Tumuli connected to earlier on? We know it became a feature of the Illyrians, but who did the proto-Illyrians share these rituals with?

[Moeca]

As he's likely Y15058, Cetina expansion in Slovenia and local contacts with pre-Tumulus Culture or a later eastern Hallstatt movement from this area seems like a good candidate.

Here we go ...
A J-L283 among Halstatt populations in South-Western Germany during BCE times (EIA), if/when confirmed by the paper, this is a major finding.
I've claimed for years that some J-Z597 lineages made it to south-Germany during EIA.
Considering Z597+ and Z1297- ... remaining "main" possibilities are Y15058 or FT31120 (not a heavily successfull lineage, but it is attested in France and Switzerland).

Some Y15058 are indeed to be expected among Eastern-Hallstatt ... this is also the case for Z631 and Y27522 aswell (but here Z1297-).
All those lineages were likely part of eastern Hallstatt related expansions.

The dating of the sample will be quite interesting.
Truth to be said, I wasn't expecting a sample "that western, that early" ... or I would have expected them among the cremating sub-populations.

The J-L283 are not very likely to behind any major cremating complex, because they being connected to the Adriatic groups which rarely if ever cremated their dead, unless they were completely overshadowed by Northern foreigners. 

I'm pretty sure that both J-L283 and E-V13 made it to the German Danubian zone and of these two its clearly E-V13, not J-L283, which has a strong bias towards cremation. Basically everywhere the two meet you can bet on E-V13 cremating and J-L283 using inhumation.

Culturally, what are the Balkan L283 Tumuli connected to earlier on? We know it became a feature of the Illyrians, but who did the proto-Illyrians share these rituals with?

Pannonians firstly

[targaryen]

Culturally, what are the Balkan L283 Tumuli connected to earlier on? We know it became a feature of the Illyrians, but who did the proto-Illyrians share these rituals with?

A correction: these are not "L283 Tumuli". Kurgans are the mark of the Yamnaya tribes, who were overwhelmingly RZ2103, that came from the steppe along the Danube and populated the Western Balkans. In fact, I'd say Albanian is the only modern language that goes directly back to the Yamnaya, as Greco-Armenian are from a non-kurgan MBA post-Yamnaya context. The Kamenica paper clearly shows that kurgans were not tied to L283 alone, but all West Balkan/Illyrians.

Also, there are no "proto-Illyrians". Illyrians are the amalgmation of the Yamnaya tribes that settled along the Adriatic. When they came to the Western Balkans, they spoke a Core PIE dialect, mutually intelligible with all other PIE dialects, including CW ones.

Illyrians, just like all PIE people were patrilocal. That means every region will be dominated by 1 Y-DNA, be it J2B2-L283, R1b-Z2103, or even other ones. Let's not forget RZ2103, R1a and R1b-L51 all had a common origin, but eventually came to dominate some regions at rates of near 100%. So let's not just look at "J2B2-L283 people" and "R1b-Z2103 people" because they are of the same kin.

[targaryen]

Btw from the Origin of Albanians paper

"Importantly, steppe-derived admixture in Albania Çinamak EBA is best modelled with largely unadmixed Yamnaya groups rather than with EEF-and-HG-admixed Corded Ware populations (Fig. S2C; Table S7), suggesting that Indo-European-related ancestry arrived in the Balkans directly from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in accordance with previous studies (6). This is also supported by the presence of Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1b-Z2103 in the Bulgaria Boyanovo EBA sample, which has been found in the earliest Yamnaya contexts (6, 49, 53), whereas Corded Ware samples are characterised by largely different subclades of haplogroup R1 (R1a-M417, R1b-U106, R1b-L151) (6, 45, 54). The ancestors of Albania Çinamak EBA were likely recent arrivals from the steppe, as this individual lived during the transitional period where the first kurgan burials made their appearance in Albania (55). Contemporary EBA archaeological finds from tumuli in Shkodër (100 km to the west of Çinamak) include artefacts associated with the Vučedol culture (55), revealing links with the northern Adriatic and Pannonia. It should be noted that a male with high levels of steppe ancestry discovered in a Vučedol context in Croatia also belonged to Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1b-Z2103 (56)."

[Polska]

Quickly browsing the Y DNA samples from Magdalenenberg on TheYTree, a couple things stand out when looking at their autosomal ancestry:

1.) MBG006 has one of the highest Celtic percentages using K47.  Almost 20%.
2.) FWIW, this sample has the highest amount of EHG ancestry (puntDNAL) @ 32%. 
     Over 50% combined EHG/WHG.  

https://www.theytree.com/portal/index/sa...c%20elites

I realize the coverage might be less than optimal for many or all of these samples.  So maybe these calculators (K47 and puntDNAL) are off as a result, but at least it’s something to ponder as to where this guy came from.  It will be interesting to eventually compare MBG006 to the La Tene J2b L283 sample from Gor, Hungary (I4998) and see how they compare.  I4998 is a few hundred years younger.

Since it’s possible MBG006 might be under Y15058, maybe he’s from this branch:

   

   

[Beast]

Looking at the current L283 distribution in the Balkans, I would be willing to wager that once we get more samples from Bosnia we will see L283 quite represented. In line with the proto-Illyrian cultural complexes Bosnia shared with the surrounding regions.

Current distribution:

Diber county and Kukes county in Albania are J-L283 hot spots yet are not even marked that much on the map. It does get some of the Malsi right though which is definitely a hot spot.

[Sephesakueu]

Quickly browsing the Y DNA samples from Magdalenenberg on TheYTree, a couple things stand out when looking at their autosomal ancestry:

1.) MBG006 has one of the highest Celtic percentages using K47.  Almost 20%.
2.) FWIW, this sample has the highest amount of EHG ancestry (puntDNAL) @ 32%. 
     Over 50% combined EHG/WHG.  

https://www.theytree.com/portal/index/sa...c%20elites

I realize the coverage might be less than optimal for many or all of these samples.  So maybe these calculators (K47 and puntDNAL) are off as a result, but at least it’s something to ponder as to where this guy came from.  It will be interesting to eventually compare MBG006 to the La Tene J2b L283 sample from Gor, Hungary (I4998) and see how they compare.  I4998 is a few hundred years younger.

Since it’s possible MBG006 might be under Y15058, maybe he’s from this branch:

It is funny that he actually doesnt have much EHG nor yamnaya, he seems to basically have iberian/southern french levels of such, but his WHG ancestry is really high , similarly to modern french basques.A 3 way model I made to him on vahaduo:
51.8 TUR_Barcin_N
 32.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.2 WHG

[GHurier]

Btw from the Origin of Albanians paper

"Importantly, steppe-derived admixture in Albania Çinamak EBA is best modelled with largely  unadmixed  Yamnaya  groups  rather  than  with  EEF-and-HG-admixed  Corded  Ware populations (Fig. S2C; Table S7), suggesting that Indo-European-related ancestry arrived in the Balkans directly from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in accordance with previous studies (6). This is also  supported  by  the  presence  of  Y-chromosomal  haplogroup  R1b-Z2103  in  the  Bulgaria Boyanovo  EBA  sample, which  has been found in  the earliest  Yamnaya contexts  (6,  49, 53), whereas Corded Ware samples are characterised by largely different subclades of haplogroup R1 (R1a-M417, R1b-U106,  R1b-L151) (6, 45,  54). The ancestors of Albania Çinamak EBA  were likely recent arrivals from the steppe, as this individual lived during the transitional period where the first kurgan burials made their appearance in Albania (55). Contemporary EBA archaeological finds from tumuli in Shkodër (100 km to the west of Çinamak) include artefacts associated with the Vučedol culture (55), revealing links with the northern Adriatic and Pannonia. It should be noted that a male with high levels of steppe ancestry discovered in a Vučedol context in Croatia also belonged to Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1b-Z2103 (56)."

Steppe arrival in South-Eastern-Europe is well traced by Z2103 phylogeny, having a look at Z2103 clade correlation between south-Eastern-Europe and Caucasus you get clear signals of migrations :


Blue curve : fractional amount of Z2103 diversity* in South-Eastern-Europe
Red curve : fractional amount of Z2103 diversity* in the Caucasus
Black curve : shared diversity* between the two regions
*only clades with presence in the studied regions are considered, all other branches of Z2103 are simply pruned from the analysis.

Key likely movements are around : ~2300 BCE, ~2000 BCE, ~1500 BCE, and ~1100 BCE.
Between 2000 and 1500 BCE we see "cascading de-correlations" indicating reccurent contacts between the two populations.
Thus EBA for steppe ancestry arrival in south-eastern Europe is definitely supported by Z2103 phylogeny.

[GHurier]

I realize the coverage might be less than optimal for many or all of these samples.  So maybe these calculators (K47 and puntDNAL) are off as a result, but at least it’s something to ponder as to where this guy came from.  It will be interesting to eventually compare MBG006 to the La Tene J2b L283 sample from Gor, Hungary (I4998) and see how they compare.  I4998 is a few hundred years younger.

Since it’s possible MBG006 might be under Y15058,

From phylogeny, we expect some Y15058 to have entered (or be absorbed by) Urnfield-sphere by ~1100-900 BCE. 
Same could apply to a Z638 (Z1297-) lineage or just a yet totally unsampled Z597 sub-lineage.
With a genetic profile consistent with other surrounding samples ... this lineage is probably in this "cultural background" since few centuries.


We still have a very bad coverage of the Iron-Age central European populations:


There is a lot of samples, but all from a very compact region in Northern Czechia.


Slighly related, Using the samples of this paper we can make a G25 distance of ~0.012 with RMPR116 (~CE sample from Roma carrying J-Z631).
Which means that we are getting close from the geographical origin of this sample.
This is consistent with the modern "South-German diversity cluster" at Z597 level to be the results of IA-migrations along the Danube, likely from south-eastern Alps.

More sampling of the Danubian corridor north of the Alps would likely provide more lineage of Z597 progressively injected between 1100 and 500 BCE as minor lineages in Hallstatt-like populations.

[targaryen]

Btw from the Origin of Albanians paper

"Importantly, steppe-derived admixture in Albania Çinamak EBA is best modelled with largely  unadmixed  Yamnaya  groups  rather  than  with  EEF-and-HG-admixed  Corded  Ware populations (Fig. S2C; Table S7), suggesting that Indo-European-related ancestry arrived in the Balkans directly from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in accordance with previous studies (6). This is also  supported  by  the  presence  of  Y-chromosomal  haplogroup  R1b-Z2103  in  the  Bulgaria Boyanovo  EBA  sample, which  has been found in  the earliest  Yamnaya contexts  (6,  49, 53), whereas Corded Ware samples are characterised by largely different subclades of haplogroup R1 (R1a-M417, R1b-U106,  R1b-L151) (6, 45,  54). The ancestors of Albania Çinamak EBA  were likely recent arrivals from the steppe, as this individual lived during the transitional period where the first kurgan burials made their appearance in Albania (55). Contemporary EBA archaeological finds from tumuli in Shkodër (100 km to the west of Çinamak) include artefacts associated with the Vučedol culture (55), revealing links with the northern Adriatic and Pannonia. It should be noted that a male with high levels of steppe ancestry discovered in a Vučedol context in Croatia also belonged to Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1b-Z2103 (56)."

Steppe arrival in South-Eastern-Europe is well traced by Z2103 phylogeny, having a look at Z2103 clade correlation between south-Eastern-Europe and Caucasus you get clear signals of migrations :


Blue curve : fractional amount of Z2103 diversity* in South-Eastern-Europe
Red curve : fractional amount of Z2103 diversity* in the Caucasus
Black curve : shared diversity* between the two regions
*only clades with presence in the studied regions are considered, all other branches of Z2103 are simply pruned from the analysis.

Key likely movements are around : ~2300 BCE, ~2000 BCE, ~1500 BCE, and ~1100 BCE.
Between 2000 and 1500 BCE we see "cascading de-correlations" indicating reccurent contacts between the two populations.
Thus EBA for steppe ancestry arrival in south-eastern Europe is definitely supported by Z2103 phylogeny.

Very interesting. I would assume a graph about J2B2-L283 would closely follow that of the blue line, if there is enough data that is.

[GHurier]

Very interesting. I would assume a graph about J2B2-L283 would closely follow that of the blue line, if there is enough data that is.

With the same setting, the same Figure for J-L283 is very different (only two caucasian lineages among modern samples) :
1. Main decoupling South-Eastern-Europe(SEE)/Caucasus occurs ~3500 BCE (with the only Armenian samples connecting at J-L283 root).
2. One small later coupling for SEE/Caucasus carried by a single lineage in Georgia with a ~1000 BCE connection to SEE (but in fact this Georgian sample is connected to western/northern Europe around Roman era).

PS: KDC001 from Russia ~2000 BCE is either J-L283* or J-Z622* according to YFULL, which therefore connects Caucasus with SEE around the same epoch (3500 BCE) if this lineage is not on the branch of the Armenian modern sample.

If trying to connect J-L283 with R-Z2103 movements ... J-L283 have to be linked with an early movement that didn't left significant traces for R-Z2103 in South-Eastern Europe.
Connecting J-L283 with major surviving R-Z2103 SEE lineage during copper age is, to be polite, pure fantasy.

While a Steppic origin of J-L283 is "feasible", making it move toward the west significantly later than ~3500 BCE didn't sounds realistic considering the diversity.
To me, the most likely is that J-L283 and surviving R-Z2103 modern clades met in western Balkans at some point between ~2300 and 2000 BCE.
In particular considering that the major Balkanic J-Z597s suclades are to be connected with Cetina expansion likely under some Bell-Beaker presure around ~2500 BCE. The upper ~J-Z615 diversity is hard to solve (3 attested lineages in ancient Balkans DNA but with a huge spread, +two lineages at least yet to be found with modern western Affinity).

At upper stages: J-Z600, J-Z2509, or J-Z585 levels there is basically no diversity in the Balkans.
The first sample (Z585+, Z615-) from the Balkans have been recentely repported from Greece by a FTDNA customer, but have a TMRCA matching Bizantine-era movements from Sicily toward Greece (which is the most likely scenario).
Considering that the hot-spot of Z585 diversity is around the Tyrrhenian-sea, and that not a single (Z585+, Z615-) have been found from Cetina culture, main arrival of J-L283 in the Western Balkans seems to be connected with J-Z615 (most likely in the Eastern-Alps/North-Western Balkans region).

Previous diversity stage are hard to solve, as the J-L283 only yields three branches with very different locations (Caucasus, Hungary, and the successfull J-Z622 lineage).
To me, it fits quite well with an origin around the Black sea pre-3500 BCE (to be able to send a lineage into the Caucasus by ~2000 BCE, considering that KDC001 is typically local, Kura-Araxes/Maykop-like, he have been there for centuries). But I won't express any strong idea about the exact location :
1. In Anatolia with an entrance in Europe around 3500 CBE ? (this is maybe the solution I would slightly favor with the data we currently have)
2. Stuck in some SEE small Neolithic/Eneolithic population (or even mediteranean Islanders) ?
3. With WSH ? But in that case it needs to be connected with an "early migration wave" toward the west (that indeed existed to some extend).
4. Significantly more exoctic, but could J-L283 be some lost lineage from Middle-east emerging from the north-western edge of the Urukean expansion ? While the trip would be big for this clades ... we have clear Urukean expansion signal for distant cousins of J-L283.

For the early stage of J-L283 I do not exclude many thing, the only constraints to me is that such movement needs to occur relatively close in time from ~3500 BCE and to be able to source both Europe and the Caucasus.
Later movements to explains European J-L283s would need to carry a lot of "old" diversity, and therefore imply masive population displacement ... which would induce significant autosomal signal (due to demographic and phylogenic considerations wuch solution is highly unlikely for J-L283).

In the current state of the data, the ~L283 level of diffusion could only be solved by a very lucky deep-tested ancient sample that would be close enough from the TMRCA with the main branch to provide real insight about L283 trajectory.
We would need deep testing of such ancient sample, because finding a ~J-L283 lineage, if it separates millenia before being found from the main surviving lineage , it would not provide very relevant informations.
But considering the current absence of ~Eneolithic/Neolithic J-L283, it seems reasonable to suspect that this clade wasn't significantly spread during that time (making the probability of finding one quite small).

Some peoples spread rumors about a J-L283 eneolithic sample from Moldavia ... but more than ~3 years later, the sample is not there.

[old europe]

Btw from the Origin of Albanians paper

"Importantly, steppe-derived admixture in Albania Çinamak EBA is best modelled with largely  unadmixed  Yamnaya  groups  rather  than  with  EEF-and-HG-admixed  Corded  Ware populations (Fig. S2C; Table S7), suggesting that Indo-European-related ancestry arrived in the Balkans directly from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in accordance with previous studies (6). This is also  supported  by  the  presence  of  Y-chromosomal  haplogroup  R1b-Z2103  in  the  Bulgaria Boyanovo  EBA  sample, which  has been found in  the earliest  Yamnaya contexts  (6,  49, 53), whereas Corded Ware samples are characterised by largely different subclades of haplogroup R1 (R1a-M417, R1b-U106,  R1b-L151) (6, 45,  54). The ancestors of Albania Çinamak EBA  were likely recent arrivals from the steppe, as this individual lived during the transitional period where the first kurgan burials made their appearance in Albania (55). Contemporary EBA archaeological finds from tumuli in Shkodër (100 km to the west of Çinamak) include artefacts associated with the Vučedol culture (55), revealing links with the northern Adriatic and Pannonia. It should be noted that a male with high levels of steppe ancestry discovered in a Vučedol context in Croatia also belonged to Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1b-Z2103 (56)."

on time to time on anthroforums this concept that unadmixed IE were yamanaya like while corded ware was a "watered down" IE population comes up as an established fact. Reality is different. Original PIE were much more like the corded ware and even more the their non CHG european HG was the real  PIE cluster. As you can see eneolithic steppe is pretty much made up from the Dneper Don foragers of the Mariupol/ sea of Azov cultural horizon