Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[Radko]

Cody E. Parker (one of the authors of aformentioned study on Krakauer Berg samples) wrote on RIP Anthrogenica forum: "I noticed a few questions about relatedness and can very confidently verify that none of the individuals presented in this paper were in any way closely related, as I used an analysis of the relatedness co-efficient to verify that within-individual skeletal elements were all in fact from the same individual. Additionally, according to our PCA using a very extensive (and unfortunately not yet publicly available) database of ancient genomes, all [Krakauer Berg] individuals were observed to fall well within the expected variation of the Sorbs. This also checks out archaeologically, as this would have been the far western border of the Sorbian state."

[Tomenable]

Cody E. Parker (one of the authors of aformentioned study on Krakauer Berg samples) wrote on RIP Anthrogenica forum: "I noticed a few questions about relatedness and can very confidently verify that none of the individuals presented in this paper were in any way closely related, as I used an analysis of the relatedness co-efficient to verify that within-individual skeletal elements were all in fact from the same individual. Additionally, according to our PCA using a very extensive (and unfortunately not yet publicly available) database of ancient genomes, all [Krakauer Berg] individuals were observed to fall well within the expected variation of the Sorbs. This also checks out archaeologically, as this would have been the far western border of the Sorbian state."

Krakauer Berg samples and for comparison one modern Sorb in North Europe PCA:

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope

[ambron]

The average for all samples from Krakauer Berg is closest to Central Poland:

PL_Central-Poland
0.2356289

[ambron]

I wonder how Krause "demonstrated" the arrival of the ancestors of the Central European Slavs from Belarus? After all, the text of his abstract shows that there are no Belarusian genomes from the 5th century. He talks about patrilineality, but it is the Slavic paternal lines that most clearly contradict the genetic origin of the Slavs from Belarus.

[Radko]

The Gothic tribes of East-Central Europe through the lens of archaeogenomic data.

The migrations of Goths and their consequences were undoubtedly one of the most significant events shaping European history in the Roman Iron Age. They have always attracted the attention of academics and history enthusiasts alike. These events are not only associated with major historic processes but are also believed to have been accompanied by significant cultural and demographic transformations.

In the territories of modern-day Poland, the Goths are associated with the Wielbark archaeological culture. The presence of stone structures (stone circles and pavements) on its commentaries in Pomerania region, in its early stages, is frequently interpreted as evidence of its Scandinavian origin, where the best analogies for such structures can be found.

Here, through the analysis of more than 300 genomes (including more than 100 newly reported) of individuals dated to the Roman Iron Age, we show that the majority of them differ significantly from earlier and later populations from East-Central Europe. However, that lack of predating, first millennium BCE, genomic data from the Pomerania region hinder our ability to pinpoint the moment this population arrived or formed in this region. Nevertheless, our data show that when the population expanded south-east, somewhere in the 3rd century AD, with minimal admixture with local populations. Similarly, later early medieval populations from East-Central Europe seem primarily represent a population of different origin with only a small degree of admixture from Gothic tribes associated with Wielbark culture.

Maciej Chylenski
Anna Juras
Edvard Ehler

submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa2024/repository/preview.php?Abstract=4312

[Parastais]

The Gothic tribes of East-Central Europe through the lens of archaeogenomic data.

The migrations of Goths and their consequences were undoubtedly one of the most significant events shaping European history in the Roman Iron Age. They have always attracted the attention of academics and history enthusiasts alike. These events are not only associated with major historic processes but are also believed to have been accompanied by significant cultural and demographic transformations.

In the territories of modern-day Poland, the Goths are associated with the Wielbark archaeological culture. The presence of stone structures (stone circles and pavements) on its commentaries in Pomerania region, in its early stages, is frequently interpreted as evidence of its Scandinavian origin, where the best analogies for such structures can be found.

Here, through the analysis of more than 300 genomes (including more than 100 newly reported) of individuals dated to the Roman Iron Age, we show that the majority of them differ significantly from earlier and later populations from East-Central Europe. However, that lack of predating, first millennium BCE, genomic data from the Pomerania region hinder our ability to pinpoint the moment this population arrived or formed in this region. Nevertheless, our data show that when the population expanded south-east, somewhere in the 3rd century AD, with minimal admixture with local populations. Similarly, later early medieval populations from East-Central Europe seem primarily represent a population of different origin with only a small degree of admixture from Gothic tribes associated with Wielbark culture.

Maciej Chylenski
Anna Juras
Edvard Ehler

submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa2024/repository/preview.php?Abstract=4312

Any new samples there or is it built on same samples the other study had?

[Radko]

Any new samples there or is it built on same samples the other study had?

"including more than 100 newly reported"

[Radko]

I'm not sure if this paper was posted previously...

Pollen, brooches, solidi and Restgermanen, or today’s Poland in the Migration Period 

Abstract: The work synthesises in 26 monographic chapters the results of a six-years long (2012–2018) interdisciplinary international project whose aim was to present the state of knowledge on today’s Poland during the Migration Period, and to compare the evolution of its settlement with that of its neighbours. One of its main results – the accordance between the palynological evidence of the change of environment (extensive reforestation and drastic reduction of anthropogenic indicators) and the archaeological reconstruction of the change of settlement (disappearance of the Przeworsk, Wielbark and other cultures of the Roman Period by the mid-fifth century) – conclusively confirms the often questioned verdict of a sudden severe depopulation of the lands between the Vistula and the Oder, similar to that revealed in the rest of Central/Eastern Europe (disappearance of the Elbe and Chernyakhiv-Sântana de Mureş cultures). An entirely new perspective opened by the project is the survival of enclaves with contacts all round the compass (the Eastern Empire, the Merovingian West, the Danubian lands, Scandinavia, the Western Balts). None of them yielded Slavonic material (...)

https://historia.uw.edu.pl/wp-content/up...2-0007.pdf

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/1...ml?lang=en

[tutut]

PC: Exactly which great scientist decided that Wendy is equivalent to Slavs? Venäläinen is a Finnish name only for Muscovites, not for Slavs. Wielbark samples doesn’t help your case either.

We already have Krakauer Berg (near Peißen) samples and they are autosomally Slavic to the core:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pei%C3%9Fen,_Salzland - Peißen near Bernburg

Code:

DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA001,0.129758,0.122879,0.07203,0.068476,0.044316,0.025937,0.012221,0.013615,-0.005727,-0.024602,-0.002761,-0.007943,0.011447,0.018441,-0.014251,0.011403,0.021383,-0.005954,0.003645,0.002126,0.000873,-0.009398,0.009244,-0.005784,-0.000479
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA002,0.125205,0.129988,0.073539,0.065246,0.034468,0.022311,0.00846,0.013615,-0.001636,-0.021868,-0.003085,-0.013638,0.012339,0.012248,-0.000271,0.011005,0.004303,-0.004181,0.002891,0.001876,-0.00549,-0.007543,0.002095,-0.000843,-0.005269
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA003,0.127482,0.123895,0.077687,0.065246,0.044624,0.010598,0.01081,0.017307,0.00225,-0.022233,-0.001137,-0.007943,0.017542,0.008808,-0.002172,0.023336,0.019427,0.00266,0.001131,0.006503,-0.006863,-0.004081,0.007148,0.006627,-0.000239
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA004,0.134311,0.126941,0.089,0.07752,0.050779,0.029284,0.00094,0.00923,0.004909,-0.016401,0.001949,-0.008842,0.020664,0.019818,-0.006515,0.005701,0.00665,0.0019,0.00817,0.007128,-0.010731,-0.000989,0.003451,-0.014942,-0.003712
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA005,0.127482,0.13405,0.069013,0.068799,0.049548,0.021753,0.009635,0.015461,-0.006545,-0.021139,-0.004709,-0.009442,0.010406,0.02257,-0.006515,-0.004508,0.009909,-0.001774,0.006411,0.006753,-0.008235,-0.002968,0.006655,-0.00482,0.000239
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006,0.129758,0.120848,0.065242,0.061047,0.043085,0.022869,0.00564,0.012923,-0.001432,-0.020228,-0.000487,-0.010041,0.013379,0.024772,-0.011808,-0.012198,-0.00339,-0.004814,-0.000503,-0.004752,0.001248,0.000247,0.007148,-0.010845,0.002395
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA007,0.125205,0.131003,0.082212,0.067184,0.047701,0.02761,0.00846,0.011538,-0.000205,-0.035718,0.001949,-0.006594,0.01888,0.02202,-0.009365,-0.01485,-0.002868,0.000887,-0.003017,0.005503,0.000749,0.000989,0.00037,-0.003976,0.007664
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA008,0.132035,0.129988,0.078064,0.066215,0.037853,0.018965,0.005405,0.009923,0.001432,-0.021868,-0.006496,-0.008243,0.015758,0.011147,-0.011536,0.009944,0.020861,-0.00228,0.002514,0.003126,-0.004617,0.000124,0.000493,-0.005663,0.001676
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA009,0.129758,0.129988,0.064111,0.064923,0.039392,0.021196,0.00893,0.011307,0.000205,-0.028793,-0.003085,-0.009891,0.017988,0.023258,-0.010722,0.006629,0.007693,0.00114,0.004651,0.00988,-0.01123,0.000495,0.003944,-0.008796,-0.001197
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA010,0.129758,0.12491,0.065619,0.059755,0.044624,0.02761,0.012456,0.013153,0.000205,-0.023873,-0.007307,-0.010641,0.011596,0.021056,-0.0057,-0.010342,-0.007041,-0.007221,0.005908,-0.007879,-0.000749,-0.001237,0.002958,-0.005904,-0.002036
DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA011,0.130897,0.132019,0.082212,0.069768,0.050163,0.026216,0.012926,0.009923,0.002454,-0.019135,-0.002111,-0.008692,0.014717,0.023533,-0.012486,-0.011005,-0.004172,0.002154,0.006034,0.006003,-0.006738,-0.01014,0.007395,-0.004217,0.003592

Well, at the very least, this can be called a subjective interpretation of some data, convenient for a certain agenda. It is by no means a scientifically based statement, since the ancestral homeland of the Slavs is still unknown and everything is still in the realm of theories. Or have you already discovered it?!
Even more ridiculous is the interpretation of certain genes as Slavic, putting in the column ethnic groups such as the Mordvins with the highest percentage of "Slavic" or with frankly "Scandinavian" flavor.
Such papers can only cause ridicule and are mere fiction.

[Tomenable]

Well, at the very least, this can be called a subjective interpretation of some data, convenient for a certain agenda. It is by no means a scientifically based statement, since the ancestral homeland of the Slavs is still unknown and everything is still in the realm of theories. Or have you already discovered it?!
Even more ridiculous is the interpretation of certain genes as Slavic, putting in the column ethnic groups such as the Mordvins with the highest percentage of "Slavic" or with frankly "Scandinavian" flavor.
Such papers can only cause ridicule and are mere fiction.

I'm not sure what is your point? I didn't claim that East Germany is the original Urheimat of Slavs.

[ambron]

"An important theory about the Slavs may collapse. Scientists examined the lake of bones.
DNA research conducted by anthropologists from the University of Łódź on bones dating from approximately 1000-450 BC may challenge the current theory that the Slavs arrived in today's Polish lands only at the beginning of the second half of the first millennium AD.
Human remains, as well as many artifacts from the Bronze Age, were discovered in the village of Papowo Biskupie in the Chełmno Land by the Kuyavian-Pomeranian History Seekers Group.
In the last century, representatives of the Lusatian culture were considered Proto-Slavics. At that time, the autochthonous concept of the origins of the Slavs dominated, which talks about the continuity of the settlement of the Vistula and Oder basin. Today this concept is rejected, the allochthonous concept prevails, according to which the Slavs came to these lands from outside.
Anthropologists emphasize that when examining the bones of people of that time, they do not notice any significant differences in the morphological features of the skeleton, and now also in the analyzed DNA sequences, which could support the currently valid concept. This means that the allochthonous theory is beginning to falter, at least with respect to changes at the population level.
The people from whom these remains come do not differ significantly in genetic terms from people living in Poland, for example, in the early Middle Ages. This research may shake the current theory, according to which the Slavs came to present-day Polish lands only at the beginning of the second half of the first millennium AD."

https://tech.wp.pl/wazna-teoria-o-slowia...238157312a

[Radko]

Geography and chronology of Slavic dispersal in Central and Eastern Europe according to archaeogenetic data

Limited suitability of PCA, ADMIXTURE, and qpAdm methods of genetic analysis relying on allele frequencies for distinguishing many populations that were important historical actors in the Roman and Migration Period Europe can be overcome by the implementation of an approach based on autosomal haplotypes, “identity-by-descent” (IBD). Imputation of missing genotypes, phasing and IBD inference were performed for ancient Eurasians using the ancIBD method (Ringbauer et al. 2023). IBD links for subsets of these individuals are represented as graphs, visualized with a force-directed layout algorithm, and most clusters that were inferred in these graphs with the Leiden algorithm are in remarkable agreement with archaeological evidence, reflecting communities of distantly related individuals. Based on this approach, we identified a distinct population group that existed in Central and East Europe from the late 2nd century CE to the Medieval period. This group played a significant role in population processes and, from the 6th century onwards, was identified in written sources as the Slavs. Considering recent linguistic and archaeological advancements, it is plausible that this group included Slavic speakers from its early formation. Considering the results of other analyses based on allele frequencies (PCA, ADMIXTURE), a hypothesis for the origin and history of this population can be proposed: it was formed in close vicinity of the Eastern Baltic region and dispersed over Central, Eastern, and Central-South Europe in several waves of migrations. The earliest representatives of this population group were found along the wide arc from the Middle Danube to the Middle Volga that limits from the south the poorly sequenced area with the domination of the cremation ritual, in the context dated to the late 2nd-early 3rd century CE. The latest individuals of this IBD cluster were buried in the Medieval Slavic-associated context.

Leonid Vyazov
Pavel Flegontov
Olga Flegontova
Harald Ringbauer
David Reich

[Alain]

"An important theory about the Slavs may collapse. Scientists examined the lake of bones.
DNA research conducted by anthropologists from the University of Łódź on bones dating from approximately 1000-450 BC may challenge the current theory that the Slavs arrived in today's Polish lands only at the beginning of the second half of the first millennium AD.
Human remains, as well as many artifacts from the Bronze Age, were discovered in the village of Papowo Biskupie in the Chełmno Land by the Kuyavian-Pomeranian History Seekers Group.
In the last century, representatives of the Lusatian culture were considered Proto-Slavics. At that time, the autochthonous concept of the origins of the Slavs dominated, which talks about the continuity of the settlement of the Vistula and Oder basin. Today this concept is rejected, the allochthonous concept prevails, according to which the Slavs came to these lands from outside.
Anthropologists emphasize that when examining the bones of people of that time, they do not notice any significant differences in the morphological features of the skeleton, and now also in the analyzed DNA sequences, which could support the currently valid concept. This means that the allochthonous theory is beginning to falter, at least with respect to changes at the population level.
The people from whom these remains come do not differ significantly in genetic terms from people living in Poland, for example, in the early Middle Ages. This research may shake the current theory, according to which the Slavs came to present-day Polish lands only at the beginning of the second half of the first millennium AD."

https://tech.wp.pl/wazna-teoria-o-slowia...238157312a

I'm a bit confused, maybe the samples are dated wrong, I can't imagine that Slavs have lived in what is now Poland since the Bronze Age! perhaps they were Baltic tribes that had a genetic affinity with Slavs anyway
Individuals of the Trzciniec culture were also similar to Slavs. But I personally don't believe the Lusatian culture

[Radko]

I'm a bit confused, maybe the samples are dated wrong, I can't imagine that Slavs have lived in what is now Poland since the Bronze Age! perhaps they were Baltic tribes that had a genetic affinity with Slavs anyway

I'm certain that these conclusions were based on simplistic anthropological analyses (Wieslaw Lorkiewicz is an anthropologist) and not through an extensive aDNA analyses.

[Alain]

I'm a bit confused, maybe the samples are dated wrong, I can't imagine that Slavs have lived in what is now Poland since the Bronze Age! perhaps they were Baltic tribes that had a genetic affinity with Slavs anyway

I'm certain that these conclusions were based on simplistic anthropological analyses (Wieslaw Lorkiewicz is an anthropologist) and not through an extensive aDNA analyses.

That's also a good question, will there be another publication, for example in Nature... but no genetic data is given