Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[ph2ter]

Genealogically, Dmitry seems largely Kievan Rus, descending from multiple Rurikid branches on both sides, on his father's side he has a great-grandmother Maria of Ossetia and a gg-grandmother likely Helena Komnene (Byzantine); further back there is Swedish input. Dmitry's maternal grandmother is unknown to me.

Obviously, his mother was 75% Mongol-Tatar.

[Tomenable]

There are obviously a lot of immigrants in Medieval Poland.

These can also be the Restgermanen, not necessarily recent immigrants.

I find it hard to believe that Goths and other Restgermanen survived in Poland another 500-600 years after the collapse of Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures. Recent immigration is much more probable.

I'm not saying that they survived, but that they were their genetic descendants.

They could be already Slavicized linguistically but still very Germanic autosomally.

How would you explain "young" Y-DNA lines such as R-S22194 (TMRCA 517 CE according to FTDNA, shared mostly with modern Western Germans and Theo der Pfeifenraucher) in Santok other than Medieval German migrations?

Medieval German migrations (the Ostsiedlung) started in the 1200s when it comes to Polish lands.

And these samples are older than the 1200s, aren't they?

[Tomenable]

But you are right that some newcomers from Germany (or other places in the West) could be in Poland already before 1200.

[Woz]

Genealogically, Dmitry seems largely Kievan Rus, descending from multiple Rurikid branches on both sides, on his father's side he has a great-grandmother Maria of Ossetia and a gg-grandmother likely Helena Komnene (Byzantine); further back there is Swedish input. Dmitry's maternal grandmother is unknown to me.

Is he, though? He appears to be only about 3/8 European, not something most people expected from a Rurikid, I imagine. The ties between the Rus and the steppe ran deep, far deeper than most people are willing to acknowledge. Seems that most of their dynastic marriages for generations were with the steppe people (Cumans, Alans, etc.)

Target: NEV2_scaled
Distance: 0.2448% / 0.00244759 | R5P
28.2 RUS_Alan_MA
21.4 MNG_Late_Med
21.0 SWE_Gotland_VA
14.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
14.6 RUS_Afanasievo

[lukpl]

These can also be the Restgermanen, not necessarily recent immigrants.

I find it hard to believe that Goths and other Restgermanen survived in Poland another 500-600 years after the collapse of Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures. Recent immigration is much more probable.

I'm not saying that they survived, but that they were their genetic descendants.

They could be already Slavicized linguistically but still very Germanic autosomally.

How would you explain "young" Y-DNA lines such as R-S22194 (TMRCA 517 CE according to FTDNA, shared mostly with modern Western Germans and Theo der Pfeifenraucher) in Santok other than Medieval German migrations?

Medieval German migrations (the Ostsiedlung) started in the 1200s when it comes to Polish lands.

And these samples are older than the 1200s, aren't they?

Many Piast kings and princes had wives from Germany. For sure they have some Germans with them as their court. Starting with Oda, second wife of Mieszko I... Also third wife of Bolesław Chrobry was Oda
Third Polish ruler Mieszko II has again German wife Rycheza.
Second wife of Herman was German.  Also second wife of Bolesław Krzywousty... And all was before 1200.

[FR9CZ6]

I don't know the details of the medieval history of Poland, but considering how many Western European settlers arrived here even in the earliest stages of the formation the catholic Kingdom of Hungary, it wouldn't surprise me to find out the same happened in Poland.
It's quite well documented, these settlers were called 'hospes' and they were given privileges because the kings wanted to attract more and more of skilled workers to come and bring new agricultural technologies, advanced mining and production techniques and the urban culture with themselves. So most of them were miners, craftsmen, artisans and they settled in the cities but many free peasants also arrived. The second major source of western immigrants were the clergymen and the monks. Most of the first archbishops and bishops came from the west and I guess a great chunk of the church's local personnel in the beginning consisted of foreigners. The third element consisted of the retinues of the german wives of some rulers, and different nobles, knights and mercenaries who settled down here.
And looking at the 11-12th century hungarian 'commoner' samples you can indeed see individuals who are obviously just newcomers from the west, they cluster with Belgians, North Italians, Germans. So, I believe those germanic-like samples in the 10-12th century Poland are obviously not 'restgermanen' and we don't have to wait until the 1200's to see dozens of western outliers in an Eastern-European sampleset because the integration into the 'western' catholic world brought many western immigrants from the very beginning.

[Radko]

I don't know the details of the medieval history of Poland, but considering how many Western European settlers arrived here even in the earliest stages of the formation the catholic Kingdom of Hungary, it wouldn't surprise me to find out the same happened in Poland.
It's quite well documented, these settlers were called 'hospes' and they were given privileges because the kings wanted to attract more and more of skilled workers to come and bring new agricultural technologies, advanced mining and production techniques and the urban culture with themselves. So most of them were miners, craftsmen, artisans and they settled in the cities but many free peasants also arrived. The second major source of western immigrants were the clergymen and the monks. Most of the first archbishops and bishops came from the west and I guess a great chunk of the church's local personnel in the beginning consisted of foreigners. The third element consisted of the retinues of the german wives of some rulers, and different nobles, knights and mercenaries who settled down here.
And looking at the 11-12th century hungarian 'commoner' samples you can indeed see individuals who are obviously just newcomers from the west, they cluster with Belgians, North Italians, Germans. So, I believe those germanic-like samples in the 10-12th century Poland are obviously not 'restgermanen' and we don't have to wait until the 1200's to see dozens of western outliers in an Eastern-European sampleset because the integration into the 'western' catholic world brought many western immigrants from the very beginning.

Yes, there are many German bishops in pre-1200s AD Poland.

Some examples:
Lambert III (Bishop of Krakow, 1082-1101 AD) - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert_...ak%C3%B3w)
Heinrich von Siegburg (Bishop of Poznan, 1103-1105/9 AD) - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_von_Siegburg
Heinrich von Wülzburg (Archbishop of Gniezno) - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich...3%BClzburg

And many more, just a few listed here - https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori...iowiecznej

[Radko]

"To counter the expansion of German, Świnka organized a synod that took place on 6 January 1285 in Łęczyca. During the meeting, he ordered all priests that were subject to his bishopric to give their sermons in Polish rather than German."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_%C5%9Awinka

[Pylsteen]

Genealogically, Dmitry seems largely Kievan Rus, descending from multiple Rurikid branches on both sides, on his father's side he has a great-grandmother Maria of Ossetia and a gg-grandmother likely Helena Komnene (Byzantine); further back there is Swedish input. Dmitry's maternal grandmother is unknown to me.

Is he, though? He appears to be only about 3/8 European, not something most people expected from a Rurikid, I imagine. The ties between the Rus and the steppe ran deep, far deeper than most people are willing to acknowledge. Seems that most of their dynastic marriages for generations were with the steppe people (Cumans, Alans, etc.)

Target: NEV2_scaled
Distance: 0.2448% / 0.00244759 | R5P
28.2 RUS_Alan_MA
21.4 MNG_Late_Med
21.0 SWE_Gotland_VA
14.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
14.6 RUS_Afanasievo

It struck me that three of his four grandparents were Rurikid, but indeed, many of their wives are not known by name and seem to be quite medieval steppe-like. A quick ancestry overview based on Medieval Lands database suggest the following ancestry up to the seventh generation, about 2/3 is unknown or uncertain on paper:

8/64 Ossetian (NB exact ancestry of Maria of Ossetia not clear)
6/64 Rurikid (NB includes ancestry of the Rurikid wives further back)
5/64 Byzantine
3/64 Swedish* (NB mother of Christine of Sweden may have been Greek/Russian)
1/64 West-European* (1st wife of Vladimir Vsevolodich was possibly English)
1/64 Kuman
40/64 unknown

[Parastais]

Typical autosomal profile of my Crusader Kings III Baltic rulers 100 years into game…

[PopGenist82]

Can someone kindly summarise the results of Rus elites so far ?
Are they a mix of Scandis, Slavs and Balts ?

[Woz]

Can someone kindly summarise the results of Rus elites so far ?
Are they a mix of Scandis, Slavs and Balts ?

Do we have the Rus elites (plural), apart from Dmitry? As for Dmitry, he's a bit under 40% European (Norse (?), Slavic, Balkan/Byzantine?), and a bit over 60% medieval steppe (Alan, Cuman, Mongol, and God knows what else). G25 does not appear to be particularly useful in sorting out his extremely diverse ancestry.

Target: NEV2_scaled
Distance: 0.8287% / 0.00828745
32.2 RUS_Alan_MA (Ossetian/Chechen like)
21.8 MNG_Pazyryk_EIA_6
18.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3 (Slavic)
6.4 DNK_Langeland_VA
6.0 MNG_Late_Med_Khitan
4.0 RUS_Late_Xiongnu
3.2 BGR_RomByz
2.4 TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz2
2.0 Scotland_IA
1.6 RUS_Karasuk_o
1.4 RUS_BZK002
0.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc

[PopGenist82]

Can someone kindly summarise the results of Rus elites so far ?
Are they a mix of Scandis, Slavs and Balts ?

Do we have the Rus elites (plural), apart from Dmitry? As for Dmitry, he's a bit under 40% European (Norse (?), Slavic, Balkan/Byzantine?), and a bit over 60% medieval steppe (Alan, Cuman, Mongol, and God knows what else). G25 does not appear to be particularly useful in sorting out his extremely diverse ancestry.

Target: NEV2_scaled
Distance: 0.8287% / 0.00828745
32.2 RUS_Alan_MA (Ossetian/Chechen like)
21.8 MNG_Pazyryk_EIA_6
18.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3 (Slavic)
6.4 DNK_Langeland_VA
6.0 MNG_Late_Med_Khitan
4.0 RUS_Late_Xiongnu
3.2 BGR_RomByz
2.4 TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz2
2.0 Scotland_IA
1.6 RUS_Karasuk_o
1.4 RUS_BZK002
0.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc

There is also Gleb Svyatoslavich.
I2-Y3120.
Ukraine_Viking_o.SG:VK542_noUDG.SG,0.120652,0.123895,0.060716,0.047158,0.023697,0.010598,0.00705,0.006231,-0.004295,-0.016037,-0.001786,-0.004496,0.013974,0.026148,-0.016015,-0.003315,-0.016559,-0.002534,0.005405,0.003752,-0.001872,0.002844,0.006532,-0.006627,0.006945

[Woz]

There's a roughly zero chance that this was Gleb Svyatoslavich, or any Rurikid. Just some body they found in the general area where Gleb Svyatoslavich's body was supposed to be buried and got overexcited.

[PopGenist82]

There's a roughly zero chance that this was Gleb Svyatoslavich, or any Rurikid. Just some body they found in the general area where Gleb Svyatoslavich's body was supposed to be buried and got overexcited.

Has there been a formal debuking of the claims of the paper ?