Albanian Discussion Thread

[Southpaw]

Here is what the study says

To obtain insights on the ethnogenesis of modern Albanians, we plot the mean Y-full TMRCAs of Albanian-specific subclades of E-V13, J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611 and other palaeo-Balkan haplogroups (R1b-PF7562, I-M223) (Fig. 10). Remarkably, a majority of these haplogroups (J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611, R1b-PF7562, I-M223) experience a sudden and steep increase in subclade diversity between 500-800 CE (Fig. 10), which coincides with the timing proposed by linguistic and historical hypotheses on the origins of Albanians and their language (33–35, 64, 84), as well as IBD-sharing analyses (72). The low number of diversifying subclades prior to 500 CE is likely caused by missing data, probably due to significant loss of diversity associated with the demographic turmoil of the Migration Period.

Unlike the abovementioned haplogroups, E-V13 exhibits continuous subclade diversification from the Bronze Age to the Roman period (Fig. 10), suggesting that populations with a high frequency of E-V13 may have followed a different demographic trajectory from those with J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611, R1b-PF7562, and I-M223. The rate of E-V13 subclade diversification increased steeply from 500 CE onwards, following the pattern of the other haplogroups found in modern Albanians (Fig. 10). Based on the above, it is possible that currently unsampled populations from the Central-West Balkan interior that were characterised by high frequencies of E-V13 may have entered the region of modern Albania around 500 CE, where they merged and co-expanded with local groups. This may also explain the absence of E-V13 from the aDNA transect of Albania, despite being the commonest haplogroup in the modern Albanian population.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...790v1.full

Which basically means what everyone has spotted before: E-V13 has continuous growth from Bronze Age, a specific continuous MRCA mutation logic whether a certain point happened in 500, 700, 1000 is not solid, they are natural occurrences. The whole picture of related subclades are more solid, they came in package.

As for FGC33621, Berisha is one of the oldest documented Albanian fis/family. In Kosove very likely it was its brother subclade Sopi which had far more widespread spread since in Nish, Vranje, Toplic Sopi families were the most numerous and one of the earliest to clash with Serbs. Berisha had late spread in Kosove unlike Sopi. Although Sopi initially was extremely resistant toward Ottomans and were successful at beating some Ottoman troops they joined their ranks afterwards, opposite Berisha who was extremely resistant to the end and kept their Catholic faith.

Berisha is a historical Albanian tribe (fis) and region in Pukë, northern Albania. Berisha is one of the oldest documented Albanian tribes, first recorded in 1242 in Dulcigno. In the Middle Ages, it was widely spread across northern Albania, southern Montenegro and Kosovo. People who traced their origin to Berisha are also found in the coastal trading hubs of Dalmatia in the Middle Ages. Berisha formed its own territorial community in Pukë in the course of the 14th century. In the apex of feudal development in Albania at the end of the 13th and during the long 14th century, Berisha was in a process of de-tribalization and reorganization of some branches as feudal families. This process stopped in the wake of the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the 15th century and was followed by a strengthening of tribal and kinship ties in the region. Berisha of Pukë is a Catholic fis. In the Ottoman period, brotherhoods (vllazni) from Puka settled in parts of Tropojë, some areas of Kosovo and Skopska Crna Gora in Macedonia. These branches converted to Islam starting from the 18th century onwards. The surname Berisha is common in Puka, Tropoja and Kosovo. (en)

Funny, in Kosovo Krasniqi is the most common surname: https://www.koha.net/en/mes/95093/the-su...20Krasniqi.

add the Gashi surname, if you remove these Post-Middle Age spread and bottleneck, J2b2-L283 real percentage would barely hit ~7%. Going by your logic, double standards yet again.

[corrigendum]

We have Thracian inscriptions and we have Messapic inscriptions. The Messapic inscriptions were actually deciphered using the Albanian language. The Thracian inscription clearly shows some exotic IE language, and Albanian doesn't help at all in decoding them. IIRC, we also have 1 Dacian inscription that doesn't show any relation to Albanian.

It's a little hilarious, how the Albanoi were a southern Illyrian tribe ~ Lezhe, Albanians are autosomally West Balkanic, Illyrian tribe and Messapic inscriptions clearly show a link to Albanian, and there are still people with "theories".

The Illyrian-Albanian question is all but settled in 2024 (especially with Davidski's study). The only remaining questions are which Illyrian tribes they descend from (Taulantii, Dardanians, Ardieai, etc...) or maybe even more north from Croatian/Bosnian Illyrian ~ Delminium.

The key idea which needs to be understood is that E-V13 among Albanians is relevant only under specific clades. Over half of E-V13 among Albanians is under E-S2979 and 1/3 CTS9320 . 

If people who constantly bring up E-V13 in discussions understood what E-V13 presence among Albanians means in terms of diversity, they would stop asking why nobody is taking into account clades which either don't exist among Albanians or clades which don't have pre-Roman diversity among Albanians.

[Beast]

Presence of Albanians in Kosovo is definitely not because of Ottomans, we know there was an old Albanian population there before these tribes even formed, we don't know what Y-dna they belonged to, using people who live there today of tribes such as Gashi, Berisha and Krasniqi or Kosovo Serbs that come from Montenigrin tribes is rather nonsensical. The history of Albanians in Kosovo certainly doesnt start with these tribes.

[Beast]

Also Morina tribe is the closest tribe to Kosovo and that formed in the Highlands of Gjakova/ Western Kosovo followed by Gashi and Krasniqi in NE Albania that are J-L283 and E-V13. Mazreku in Kosovo were possibly R1b and a surname that appears among the old inhabitants of Prizren. The Gashi surname also appears in the 16th century registers as a minority among majority Albanian names.

[Dreneu]

We'll know where they were when we get data, but in terms of the location of Proto-Albanian, their location in the IA doesn't have much to offer because their MRCAs among Albanians are in Roman antiquity, not earlier.

E-Y146086 has two downstream Albanian subclades, but no upstream Albanian subclades. The downstream ones have MRCAs in 900 CE and 1050 CE.

E-BY4465 has an MRCA around 150 CE.

E-Y173822 has an MRCA around 600 CE.

I'm interested to know where these clades were located, but their location doesn't impact the location of Proto-Albanian because they start to spread in later antiquity, not earlier.

They're important Albanian clades just like J-FGC12816 is an important Albanian clade, but neither has any answer to offer to the question "where was Proto-Albanian spoken during the Iron Age".

Even if E-V13 was just entirely major late add ons with founder effects, it is still clearly relevant to the question of Proto-Albanian and Albanian what language these people spoke before they spoke proto-Albanian.

I.e. did proto-Albanians absorb some chinese speaking E-Y173822? Did they add any new loanwords?

Linguist Radu Craciun points out that the ratio of Thracian : Illyrian material in Albanian is 2.5 : 1, meaning 2.5 more Thracian than Illyrian, favouring a Thracian origin for Albanian.



But hold up, this is so puzzling, because we have no possible candidate for Thracian in Albanian haplogroups according to the champions of Illyria here.

Beyond this 2.5 : 1 correspondence ratio that he gives though what is more important are the examples he finds which are convincing documentation of the actual transitional stages of phonetic changes specific to Albanian (sk > h the most famous):

[Kelmendasi]

Also Morina tribe is the closest tribe to Kosovo and that formed in the Highlands of Gjakova/ Western Kosovo followed by Gashi and Krasniqi in NE Albania that are J-L283 and E-V13. Mazreku in Kosovo were possibly R1b and a surname that appears among the old inhabitants of Prizren

Some Mazreku from Malishevë have tested and they are R1b-Z2705 although I am not sure if they form a subclade with the Mazreku of Dukagjin who are also R1b-Z2705. Mazreku (and its vairants, e.g., Mazarak) was a pan-Albanian name during the medieval and Ottoman period, spread across all Albanian-speaking territories, so it could be that they belong to a different branch of Z2705.

[Moeca]

You seem to be confusing me with Paleorevenge, or insinuating that he is a sock of mine.

From his latest post on eupedia:

"Early Albanian cluster is next evolution of the Bassarabi one, and and they are surrounded by similar profiles from Avar Hungary, not Dalmatia."

Major problem, illyrian theory is cooked

No, I'm not confusing you with anyone. When you propagate an opinion, you support it.

Basarabi culture ended around 600 BCE. The random Y-DNA samples include an E-V13 with a Balkan shifted profile from northwestern Hungary and an R-L51 Celt from Hungary. 

The study proposes no claim about any "Basarabi" cluster and it doesn't label medieval Albanians as "Basarabi derived". The samples labeled as "Basarabi" are literally random samples from random regions which have nothing to do with Basarabi culture.

The medieval Albanian samples include:

-J-L283
-R-CTS1450
-I-P78
-T-L131>>Y206597
-R-M417>>FT14429

All three verifiably Paleo-Balkan lineages have been found among Illyrians/Iapygians and they have nothing in common with the eastern Balkans. Which one of these was "Basarabi"?

The medieval Albanian R-PF7563 was labeled as Illyrian-Celtoid-Thracian. This is another lineage which verifiably existed among ancient Illyrians and will be shown to exist among Iapygians.

You wrote "major problem, illyrian theory is cooked" but you didn't bring any argument to the discussion. You just brought a random post about random samples which were labeled as "Basarabi" by a random user of eupedia.

The samples themselves have nothing to do with Basarabi and the medieval Albanian samples which come from Paleo-Balkan populations are all found in Illyrian populations.

Your entire argument is that somehow E-V13 as haplogroup represents Proto-Albanians. Do you have any actual argument based on phylogeny and clade distribution which supports this idea?

The closest language to Albanian is Messapic: J-L283 + R-Z2103 ( >CTS1450 - unpublished) + I-M223>P78 + R-PF7562 (likely result, unpublished)

Wherever we find a combination of these haplogroups, we find populations related to Albanians. Finding just E-V13 somewhere is irrelevant to Proto-Albanian - just as irrelevant as finding any of the aforementioned haplogroups without the others. If we find E-V13 in combination with the rest of these haplogroups, it might be relevant to Proto-Albanians.

The two most diverse Albanian clades are under R-PF7563 and J-L283 and there's not a single E-V13 clade which comes close to the diversity of these clades. At best, the oldest in-group Albanian E-V13 MRCA we have right now is close to 500 BCE. This is fine and it doesn't make Albanian E-V13 clades less Albanian today. The problem only exists when someone tries to make E-V13 *the* Proto-Albanian haplogroup, when in fact E-V13 clades which weren't living in the west-central Balkans in the Iron Age by definition can't be even remotely Proto-Albanian.

If someone wants to claim that all E-V13 was Daco-Thracian, it's a hypothesis which is being tested and shown to be wrong because we definitely have found west-central Balkan E-V13. But whoever claims that E-V13 = Daco-Thracian throughout the IA is also claiming that not a single E-V13 clade can be Proto-Albanian. You can't have it both ways.

The Çinamak samples are most likely Dardanians, not "Illyrii proprie dicti".

Dardani = J-L283 + R-Z2103 + R-PF7563, just like the Iapygians across the Adriatic.

IMO, we'll get E-V13 among Dardanians because we already have Illyrian E-V13 profiles in the Naissus-Timacum region and this answers how E-V13 became part of Proto-Albanian-speaking groups, although it doesn't have to be so as there are other options as well.

We just need to follow the data, not pre-conceived notions about what the importance of any haplogroup should supposedly be because of lack of knowledge and data 10 years ago made it seem so.

- E-V13 today makes up 25-30% of Y-DNA among Albanians.
- The majority of E-V13 clades don't have demographic significance among Albanians. Over half of Albanian E-V13 are concentrated under E-S2979 and ~1/3 under E-CTS9320.
- The subclades which do have demographic significance among Albanians tend to have in-group diversity from the Middle Iron Age to the Middle Ages.
- Some lineages have very recent diversity. E-Y93102, which moved from northern Albania to Kosova, represents today ~2.5% of all Y-DNA in the Rrenjet database. It is almost entirely concentrated in Kosova today and it represents almost 10% of all Albanian E-V13. The ancestor of all Y93102 lived between ~1300 (FTDNA) and ~1350 (YFULL) CE. Such founder effects may skew E-V13 % among Albanians even in the Middle Ages.
- A significant portion of E-V13 clades will likely get MRCAs comparable to some of the most diverse Albanian lineages which will strongly indicate their presence in the Proto-Albanian-speaking west Balkan region before the MIA.

These are the issues which you have to be to reply to. This is a forum about genetic anthropology and you have to bring relevant arguments to the debate. For example, you can't argue that Y93102 is "an important Proto-Albanian lineage" because the MRCA of Y93102 only starts after the 13th century. It might be a significant lineage in Kosova today, but until its post-medieval founder effect it was insignificant. We are not going to learn anything about where Proto-Albanian was spoken based on any relations of Y93102 with ancient samples because it's not a pre-medieval lineage among Albanians.

And it's not a coincidence that with n= 1745 (Rrenjet), a lineage with the diversity of R-Z29758 has been firmly established, but no such E-V13 subclade could be established.

Basarabi culture did not end in the 6th century BC..............what ended was the Urnfield culture of the Basarabi

you are confusing the 2

The Basarabi either migrated and accepted a new culture or stayed and where absorbed into a new culture

[corrigendum]

Basarabi culture did not end in the 6th century BC..............what ended was the Urnfield culture of the Basarabi

you are confusing the 2

The Basarabi either migrated and accepted a new culture or stayed and where absorbed into a new culture

Urnfield culture and influences in the Balkans ended much earlier than the start of Basarabi.

In general, the chronology of the Basarabi style in the middle Hallstatt is now being reconsidered by
experts in light of recent archaeological finds. Several older hypotheses and recent carbon dating tests (of
the Tărtăria-Podu Tărtăriei vest site) suggest that it began in the ninth century BC, but stratigraphic
observations of the Popești site led to the definition of a “pre-Basarabi” horizon that has some similarities
to Babadag III culture. Based on current research, we can say that the Basarabi cultural phenomenon
originated in the area of the Lower Danube and middle Mureș, probably in the mid-to-late ninth century
BC, evolved during the eighth century BC and ended around the mid-seventh century BC.

Experts continue to debate the possible causes of the Basarabi culture’s swift and unpredictable
demise in the mid-seventh century, with no perceptible archaeological signs of decadence and deterioration. Various factors have been considered, from rapidly unfolding events that could have put Basarabi communities under constant pressure and ended with an overwhelming tidal wave of new ethnic groups arriving from the Eurasian steppes and the Near East, to climatic and environmental conditions that would have had a slower yet implacable effect, possibly triggering internal crises and economic and social changes. (Mandescu 2021)

[Kelmendasi]

Beyond this 2.5 : 1 correspondence ratio that he gives though what is more important are the examples he finds which are convincing documentation of the actual transitional stages of phonetic changes specific to Albanian (sk > h the most famous):

A number of the etymologies for Thracian anthroponyms provided by Crăciun are questionable and do not have much explanation or evidential backing, even from secondary source material. That is not to say that all of his etymologies are impossible, but a number do not align with what specialists in the field of Thracian studies have argued. Regarding the example of Spartacus or Sparadokos being used here, specialists such as Duridanov etymologise the name as a compound of *sparas ('spear, lance') and *takos ('famous') - meaning 'renowned by the spear': 

sparas 'Speer, Lanze': PN Spar-takos, vgl. aisl. sparr, ahd. sper 'Speer' zu idg. *sper-.

 

Likewise, Georgiev also derives Spar(a)takos from these two terms, connecting *spara to Latin sparus ('hunting spear'): 

Σπάρ-τακος (Diod. и др.), Spartacus (Cic. и др.) е двуосново име, съставено от *spara = лат. sparus, sparum 'късо копие', стисл. sparr, нем. Speer 'копие' и -τακος (вж.): 'славен с копието (cи.).

Edit: 

The anthroponym Spartakos appears in Greek inscriptions from the northern shore of the Black Sea to Egypt interestingly enough (e.g., a certain Spartakos Menandros from Egypt).

And as for the name Pardokas recorded in the comedies of Aristophanes, while some do suggest that it should be read as a corruption of Spartakos, others have argued that it is in fact a comedic corruption of the latter name: 

When Xanthias resists, he calls three more slaves from inside by name - Ditylas, Skeblyas, and Pardokas - and orders them to fight him. As Dover 1993, 270 points out, these appear to be joke names: they suggest respectively 'Two Humps', 'Baboon', and 'Fartinator'. The former two might easily be taken to indicate ogre-like features appropriate to slaves apparently kept for the purpose of physical intimidation; the latter seems to end the list of fabricated names with a throw-away scatological joke. That Pardokas ('Fartinator') could be a corruption of the name Spartokos, which is attested in the royal house of the Crimean Bosporus in the fifth century, is hardly copious evidence that these three are meant to be publicly owned Scythian archers, nor should we assume that the other two names should be Scythian names with which we are not familiar simply because they are not traditional comic slave names. 

[Riverman]

Basarabi did continue the cannelure and other aspects of the Gáva-related Channelled Ware. Even more, on the long run the old traditions emerged again and they shifted to cremation and the final stage of the Basarabi culture, shortly before the Celtic invasion and influence on the locals, was again Channelled Ware.
Therefore we see a direct continuity from Gáva-related Channelled Ware to Basarabi and the following cultures, including Ferigile which being most often associated with the historical people known as Triballi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

A Daco-Thracian ethnicity.

The main factor for the two shifts, first from Channelled Ware of the Belegis II-Gáva to Kalakacza and then Bosut-Basarabi/Stamped Pottery - and later from Basarabi to Vekerzug and Ferigile, were in both cases nomadic invasions.

Gáva-related Channelled Ware was altered and pushed back in some areas due to the Cimmerian invasion, which resulted in the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. When things stabilised again, Bosut-Basarabi had emerged from the more tumultous Kalakacza horizon.

Basarabi ended due to the Scythian invasions, which resulted in Scythianised local groups like Vekerzug and Ferigile. Then came the Celts, and only when things stabilised again, we see the historical Dacian people and tribes, the Dacian kingdom.

Basically the Carpathian basin and Lower Danube were always under threat from the steppe nomads, which could demolish and alter their societies. This is why many aspects of the Thracian and Dacian culture look later Scythianised. We know from the Urnfield and Hallstatt era that they were nothing like that before, this was all adopted after the Scythian invasion and the highly influential Vekerzug and Ferigile group had formed.

Also note that we know some names for these North Thracian Scythianised people, especially the Sigynnae and Agathyrsi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathyrsi

Therefore we can connect the dots and see the historical people emerging from these archaeological cultures, Agathyrsi and Sigynnae from Mezocsat-Vekerzug plus additional Scythian influences, Triballi from Basarabi-Ferigile.

And for both the Sigynnae and Agathyrsi the historical authors note that they were Daco-Thracian people, sometimes with a small layer of a Scythian elite. The Triballi being a strictly Daco-Thracian people.

[corrigendum]

A number of the etymologies for Thracian anthroponyms provided by Crăciun are questionable and do not have much explanation or evidential backing, even from secondary source material. That is not to say that all of his etymologies are impossible, but a number do not align with what specialists in the field of Thracian studies have argued. Regarding the example of Spartacus or Sparadokos being used here, specialists such as Duridanov etymologise the name as a compound of *sparas ('spear, lance') and *takos ('famous') - meaning 'renowned by the spear': 

sparas 'Speer, Lanze': PN Spar-takos, vgl. aisl. sparr, ahd. sper 'Speer' zu idg. *sper-.

 

Likewise, Georgiev also derives Spar(a)takos from these two terms, connecting *spara to Latin sparus ('hunting spear'): 

Σπάρ-τακος (Diod. и др.), Spartacus (Cic. и др.) е двуосново име, съставено от *spara = лат. sparus, sparum 'късо копие', стисл. sparr, нем. Speer 'копие' и -τακος (вж.): 'славен с копието (cи.).

Edit: 

The anthroponym Spartakos appears in Greek inscriptions from the northern shore of the Black Sea to Egypt interestingly enough (e.g., a certain Spartakos Menandros from Egypt).

And as for the name Pardokas recorded in the comedies of Aristophanes, while some do suggest that it should be read as a corruption of Spartakos, others have argued that it is in fact a comedic corruption of the latter name: 

When Xanthias resists, he calls three more slaves from inside by name - Ditylas, Skeblyas, and Pardokas - and orders them to fight him. As Dover 1993, 270 points out, these appear to be joke names: they suggest respectively 'Two Humps', 'Baboon', and 'Fartinator'. The former two might easily be taken to indicate ogre-like features appropriate to slaves apparently kept for the purpose of physical intimidation; the latter seems to end the list of fabricated names with a throw-away scatological joke. That Pardokas ('Fartinator') could be a corruption of the name Spartokos, which is attested in the royal house of the Crimean Bosporus in the fifth century, is hardly copious evidence that these three are meant to be publicly owned Scythian archers, nor should we assume that the other two names should be Scythian names with which we are not familiar simply because they are not traditional comic slave names. 

Thanks for the inquiry based on bibliography.

[targaryen]

Presence of Albanians in Kosovo is definitely not because of Ottomans, we know there was an old Albanian population there before these tribes even formed, we don't know what Y-dna they belonged to, using people who live there today of tribes such as Gashi, Berisha and Krasniqi or Kosovo Serbs that come from Montenigrin tribes is rather nonsensical. The history of Albanians in Kosovo certainly doesnt start with these tribes.

Albanians have lived as far as Nish from antiquity. That much is clear.

But the population density of Kosovo has clearly increased massively the last few hundred years. There was no "Albanian state" or "Kosovo state". The Gheg people of northern Albania and Kosovo lived under the same Vilayet, so they migrated back and forth.

[targaryen]

We have Thracian inscriptions and we have Messapic inscriptions. The Messapic inscriptions were actually deciphered using the Albanian language. The Thracian inscription clearly shows some exotic IE language, and Albanian doesn't help at all in decoding them. IIRC, we also have 1 Dacian inscription that doesn't show any relation to Albanian.

It's a little hilarious, how the Albanoi were a southern Illyrian tribe ~ Lezhe, Albanians are autosomally West Balkanic, Illyrian tribe and Messapic inscriptions clearly show a link to Albanian, and there are still people with "theories".

The Illyrian-Albanian question is all but settled in 2024 (especially with Davidski's study). The only remaining questions are which Illyrian tribes they descend from (Taulantii, Dardanians, Ardieai, etc...) or maybe even more north from Croatian/Bosnian Illyrian ~ Delminium.

The key idea which needs to be understood is that E-V13 among Albanians is relevant only under specific clades. Over half of E-V13 among Albanians is under E-S2979 and 1/3 CTS9320 . 

If people who constantly bring up E-V13 in discussions understood what E-V13 presence among Albanians means in terms of diversity, they would stop asking why nobody is taking into account clades which either don't exist among Albanians or clades which don't have pre-Roman diversity among Albanians.

Which is why Y-DNA ratios in modern populations are a waste of time. It'd be interesting to see how E-V13 expanded all over the Balkans, but has little bearing on overall Albanian ancestry. Y-DNA is like 2% of your DNA and it's subject to extreme bottlenecks in these patriarchal societies. 

We use to have a PIE population that was a mixture of RZ2103, R1b-L51, R1a, I2. Then you had different regions that were essentially almost 100% RZ2103, almost 100% L51, or 100% R1a. But they all shared the same descent. Bottlenecks happen.

[Beast]

Presence of Albanians in Kosovo is definitely not because of Ottomans, we know there was an old Albanian population there before these tribes even formed, we don't know what Y-dna they belonged to, using people who live there today of tribes such as Gashi, Berisha and Krasniqi or Kosovo Serbs that come from Montenigrin tribes is rather nonsensical. The history of Albanians in Kosovo certainly doesnt start with these tribes.

Albanians have lived as far as Nish from antiquity. That much is clear.

But the population density of Kosovo has clearly increased massively the last few hundred years. There was no "Albanian state" or "Kosovo state". The Gheg people of northern Albania and Kosovo lived under the same Vilayet, so they migrated back and forth.

The population density has gone back and forth due to various factors. The population density of northern Albania also increased during the Ottoman period. Don't see what exactly that has to do with anything I wrote. The presence of J-L283 is certainly not only because of Gashi and Krasniqi. Kosovo is also one of the most undertested areas. The area of Peja, Gjakova, Prizren, and the area of Shkupi had an old Albanian population too. As for migrations, while there were some, the only largely recorded ones are the ones that occurred in the 18th century. Krasniqi is one of the most common surnames today, which indicates there has been settlements and  resetlements but that certainly didnt include people of Krasniqi only. It is even more illogical to use medieval and Ottoman era populations to make definite conclusions and statements about the Y-dna of IA populations or to use people that live there today to make conclusions about medieval Y-dna and IA, these things could have been affected by all kinds of things. 

One thing is for sure and which I guarantee you, is that in BA/IA Kosovo there will not be a single E-V13. And we have obviously seen this indication already by the ancient dna we have. E-V13 wasnt a lineage there probably until the very late IA or Roman period or post Roman period. I might be wrong but this is how I see it.

[Beast]

It is rather weird how Matzinger admits the transmission of ancient Scupi > Shkupi in Albanian or Astbios > Shtip, he also seems to include the possibility of Naissus > Nish which was also supported by other linguists, yet Scardus > Sharr supported by Katicic, and which is right next to Scupi, does not according to Matzinger  nor Scodra > Shkoder according to Matzinger.  Shkupi in Albanian does not show a Slavic or even Aromanian intermediation but rather developed directly from the ancient name Scupi. 

 https://www.albanologie.uni-muenchen.de/...genese.pdf


The transmission of Scodra > Shkoder is actually very possible as supported by other historians and linguists in my opinion unlike what Matzinger claims:

The evidence is in fact very mixed; some of the Albanian forms (of both urban and rural names) suggest transmission via Slav, but others -including the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. [48] (One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) [49] There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms. [50]

This claim is put forward as a prime argument against the 'Illyrian' origins of the Albanians by Schramm: Eroberer, pp. 33-4; Anfange, p. 23. It had already been answered by Cabej, who pointed out that the shift to 'h' belonged to a much earlier (pre-Roman) period of Albanian: 'Problem of Autochthony', p. 44. Schramm's case can be disproved by a series of Albanian borrowings from Latin, such as shkorse (rug) from scortea, shkendije (spark) from scantilla, shkemb (rock-formation) from scamnum, and shkop (staff) from scopae: see Capidan, 'Raporturile'. pp. 546-8; Philippide, Originea Rominilor, vol. 2, pp. 653-4; Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik', p. 177; and the entries in Meyer, Etymologisches Worterbuch.

https://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html#49.

Matzingers argument that 'sc' in Latin should of turned into 'h' in Albanian and not 'shk' is rather speculative. Where he argues that Scodra > Shkoder should of turned from Scodra > Hader is rather nonsensical.  

It is interesting how Matzinger copied the theory from Schramm who had already been debunked. Nowhere did the 'sc' turn into 'h' in these loanwords in Albanian interesting enough. 


Why do some people keep swinging these speculative theories of Matzinger as a fact, I wonder ? Or for example where he claims that Messapic and Dardanian was supposedly not Illyrian ? I mean this is nothing but a fringe theory and certainly not a fact going by the evidence.