Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[ambron]

Pins with eight-shaped movable links in the Middle Volga region in the 4th–7th centuries and their possible prototypes

Lilia Khalimullina, Leonid Vyazov (Kazan, Russia)

The sedentary population of the Middle Volga region during the Migration Period is represented by a number of closely connected groups, with the Imen’kovo culture and the Middle Volga variety of the Kiev culture (sites of the Sidelkino-Timyashevo type) as the largest ones. The issue of identifying specific elements that could be used as “ethnographic” features is of crucial importance for identifying the origins of their introduction to the region. Metal costume pins are among the few such examples.

The earliest examples of pins in the Middle Volga region come from sites of the 3rd–4th centuries in the Cheremshan River basin where specimens with a loop-shaped head, with and without a round movable link were found. A separate eight-shaped link was found at the fortified site of Lbishche. In the 5th–7th centuries, the type with eight-shaped links was the only type that was widely spread throughout Imen’kovo culture sites. It is worth mentioning that they are not known in the latest Imen’kovo assemblages (later than the beginning of the 7th century).

Pins as an element of costume in the Migration Period are common for cultures associated with the Baltic-speaking population. The easternmost region is the territory of the Moschino culture. Pins without moving links are known here in layers dated from the 5th – mid-7th centuries. As for the Middle Volga pins, the analogies to them were found on 2nd–3rd century Kiev culture sites. Probable prototypes of pins with an eight-shaped link can be found in 3rd-4th century materials from the territory of Belarus, among the examples with a round head with movable ring links. The tradition of wearing pins in the Upper Dnieper and Polesia dates back to the Zarubintsy culture and others of the early Iron Age, which makes this region a very likely source of the tradition of pin use in the east of Eastern Europe.

The emerging parallels provide new data for the discussion of migration processes and cultural relations in Eastern Europe during the Migration period.

https://www.arup.cas.cz/en/konference-sl...ennium-ad/

[tutut]

"the Slav has haplogroup N and an autosomal profile mixed with the Finnish one."
One would have to be very desperate to make such a claim that the Slavs were genetically Finns, Balts or Scandinavians.
I simply do not find any other explanation for such an opinion contrasting not only with scientific facts but even with objective reality.
However, I think that certain scientists should take part of the blame, because they laid mines already in the 17th-18th century, falsifying European history, and today certain ethnic groups continue to dig the bottom in the wrong direction.
Now with genetics though, it's hard to bend reality in your desired direction simply because you already seem mentally unbalanced in wanting it to be
on yours.
The oldest Slavic toponyms are not in Asia or northern Europe, but in the Balkans and Asia Minor. We have written evidence for a number of toponyms, hydronyms, names from many classical authors, as well as the fact that in the 6th-7th century there was no change in the language of the Balkans. It is not by chance that the linguistic connection between Thracian and Baltic was made and confirmed, but it is clear to any sane person that the Balts are neither Slavs nor Thracians and never were. The connection is solely due to Slavic influence over the Balts.

[ambron]

tutut

The oldest Slavic toponyms occur in Poland and western Ukraine (Udolph, Babik, Pronk, Kortlandt).

[VladMC]

V.Napolskikh wrote:
"In connection with the opinion existing in archaeology about the origin of the creators of the Imenkov archaeological culture of the IV-VII centuries. In the Middle Volga-Lower Kama region from the Balto-Slavic area, I proposed the hypothesis that a number of words in the languages of the peoples of the Volga-Kama region and, above all, in the Permian languages originate from a fairly old Balto-Slavic dialect, which, judging by the time and nature of these borrowings, could well be the language of the creators of the Imenkov archaeological culture (next, just the “Imenkov language” Since the features of the source language of these loanwords indicated its proximity to Proto-Slavic, it was defined as “Proto-Slavic”.
At the same time, I meant a language close (both linguistically and, obviously, in the place of its initial formation) to Proto-Slavic, but not identical to it. It would probably be possible to speak simply about the “Balto-Slavic” or even the “Baltic” dialect, based on the hypothesis I generally accept about Proto-Slavic as a peripheral member of the Macrobaltic language continuum, however, it was important to indicate not only the Balto-Slavic affiliation of this language, but also its special proximity to Proto-Slavic.
Here, obviously, it is necessary to focus on the existing tradition of mixing the ethnonym (self–designation of a historical group of tribes) “Slavs” and the name of the language of the corresponding ethnic group “Slavic” on the one hand - and the purely linguistic term “Slavic”, characterizing a certain type of language with all the features that distinguish it from other Indo-European language systems, on the other.
Of course, the name of the Slavs as an ethnic community (and, accordingly, the languages or dialects spoken by members of this community) can be used only when it comes to events from the middle of the VI century AD, since the Slavs entered the historical arena. But this does not mean that Slavic linguistic features developed only by the sixth century, and that these features were inherent in the speech of only historical Slavs or their direct ancestors: it is quite obvious that these features should have developed in a certain part of the Balto-Slavic (Macrobaltic) linguistic area long before the appearance of the Slavs on the borders of Byzantium, and the corresponding Isoglosses could cover not only the actual speech of the direct ancestors of the Slavs, but also the speech of the neighboring Balto-Slavic (Baltic) groups, about whose languages, which did not leave living descendant languages, we do not have and will hardly ever have real data. According to the terminology used in Uralistics, such dialects could be called
“Paraslavian".
All these terminological subtleties are actually of fundamental importance, since the misunderstanding of these terms led to the fact that in the works of fellow archaeologists, the hypothesis I proposed began to be interpreted as an argument in favor of the Proto-Slavic or simply Slavic language without any reservations of the creators of the Imenkov culture, which is an obvious anachronism, and moreover - as an argument in favor of the benefit of attributing the Imenkovites to some mythical Slavs-“Russ”, for which I cannot share responsibility in any way."

[Gordius]

Report on the origin of the Slavs
https://youtu.be/WGmSY_Ie0Sc?si=jvNI0uoxRR2Vr8Aj

I looked at the Vyasov`s report. Main theses:

 

1. If we take IBD cluster of medieval samples, which are definitely Slavic, then the oldest samples, which are also included in this cluster, are individual samples from Viminatsium, from the Lower Don and from the Volga.

2. All of these earliest samples have a pronounced "Baltic" genetic profile (ie more "northern" than modern Slavs).

3. Samples from Viminatsium and the lower Don are clear outliers, while those from the Volga are the Imenkovo culture.

 

And now I will tell you what is the nuance here. The fact is that this in no way contradicts the Carpathian version of the origin of Prague culture. Because, as I have already noted in another thread, according to this version, the Prague culture arose on the basis of a variant of the Chernyakhiv culture of the upper and middle Dniester, which in turn arose on the basis of the fusion of the Przeworsk culture, the Lipitska culture, and the migrants of the Zarubinets culture from the middle Pripyat. Therefore, most likely, the samples from Viminatsium are precisely the autosomal profile of these migrants from the Zarubinets culture. Imenkovo culture also arose on the basis of late Zarubinets monuments. But was this Zarubynets population Slavic? Slavic samples from the territory, for example, Pannonia of the Avar era - they are more similar to the current Carpathian and Balkan Slavs than to the Balts. And although they have IBD segments in common with Viminatsium (after all, the same balto-slavic drift is also present in below), but they have a significant percentage of farmers compared to Balts and Viminatsium. So - what are the more ancient populations with a significant "farming" component in common IBD segments below? Conventionally speaking, the found IBD "mothers" are the populations from which the same samples from Viminatsium, the lower Don and the Volga came. But where is the "father"? Let me remind you that in the work on the origin of the Corded Ware https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-023-01582-w , both the "father" and the "mother" were found, that is, the Yamnaya culture and the Globular Amphora culture from the territory of Ukraine. And in Vyasov`s report, it is only about IBD from one side. Accordingly, this study cannot yet shed light on the origin of the genetic profile of Slavs.

[ambron]

It is also worth paying attention to the genealogical tree of Slavic languages of the Moscow linguistic school, which Vyazov used. Kushniarevich used a similar tree in her 2015 work.

The West Slavic languages are dated to 460 AD, the East Slavic languages to 580 AD, and the South Slavic languages to 690 AD.

[Rober_tce]

We remember all users stay on topic and don’t personalize discussions.

We are revising last posts.

[ambron]

Interestingly, right after the demographic boom of 300 BC-300 CE, which resulted in the expansion of the most characteristic Slavic paternal lines and which took place in the West Slavic population (Rębała), we see around 460 AD (as the earliest) divergence of the West Slavic language branch.

Therefore, the Slavic homeland could not lie anywhere else than in the territory of the Western Slavs.

[leonardo]

Interestingly, right after the demographic boom of 300 BC-300 CE, which resulted in the expansion of the most characteristic Slavic paternal lines and which took place in the West Slavic population (Rębała), we see around 460 AD (as the earliest) divergence of the West Slavic language branch.

Therefore, the Slavic homeland could not lie anywhere else than in the territory of the Western Slavs.

And what do we know from the historical records from that period? The Goths defeat the Veneti - among others, and the Hums invaded. Both likely caused movement and migration, along with a possible blending of these people who moved. We know that a Roman official noticed the use of a Slavic word at a Hunnic funeral.

[ph2ter]

Interestingly, right after the demographic boom of 300 BC-300 CE, which resulted in the expansion of the most characteristic Slavic paternal lines and which took place in the West Slavic population (Rębała), we see around 460 AD (as the earliest) divergence of the West Slavic language branch.

Therefore, the Slavic homeland could not lie anywhere else than in the territory of the Western Slavs.

Such reasoning is beyond my comprehension.

[ambron]

ph2ter

Try to explain it from the perspective of the Slavic homeland on the middle Dnieper...

[Bukva_]

ph2ter

Try to explain it from the perspective of the Slavic homeland on the middle Dnieper...

And who then, by your opinion lived in Middle Dnieper and Belarus in that time?

[ambron]

ph2ter

I'll help you...

Neither the demographic boom in the West Slavic population, resulting in the expansion of characteristic Slavic paternal lines, nor the earliest diversification of the West Slavic linguistic branch can be explained from the perspective of the Slavic homeland on the middle Dnieper.

[ambron]

Bukva

Mainly people speaking Baltic dialects.

[ph2ter]

Bukva

Mainly people speaking Baltic dialects.

And Slavic is only one of the Baltic dialects.