R1b-L51 in Yamnaya: Lazaridis 2024

[ArmandoR1b]

One thing i wonder, how did Basques ended up being so high in R1b-L51?

Could it be that Basque language could have in fact been one of the many Steppe languages distantly related to IE, any consensus on Basque language?

Also the Iberians prior to Latinization were supposed to speak a non IE language, yet they are high on R1b, what do we know of Iberian language, if there are any few traces of toponyms, hydronyms etc, etc.

How does Iberian/Basque R1b compares to other Celtic and/or Italic subclades?

It's a funny paradox, Basque is supposed to be the last standing non-IE language yet they are one of the highest R1b carriers as a group afaik.

This has already been discussed a lot at Anthrogenica and elsewhere. We don't have a time machine so we can only go by the DNA results of ancient and modern specimens.

The significant amount of steppe autosomal DNA and the phylogeographic locations and dates of the relevant upstream SNPs and specimens that match the phylogeny and dates prove that paternally the Basques descend from Bell Beaker.

You are going to want to familiarize yourself with the phylogeny of R-DF27, R-U152 , R-L21, and R-P312. Look them up at https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-P312 Change the haplogroup accordingly and look at tall of the pages of the site.

Basques are mostly R-DF27 with some R-L21. They also most closely match samples from Spain that precede the Moorish period per Olalde at al. 2018. Basques also have a lot of Neolithic autosomal DNA that along with Sardinians most closely matches ancient Neolithic samples.

EHU002 2562–2306 cal BCE, a Bell Beaker specimen, is the oldest R-P312 specimen found in Spain. There is no read for R-DF27. It could possibly have been the oldest R-DF27 in Spain and western Europe if it had a read and the read were positive.

"Celtic" and Italic subclades are mostly R-L21 and R-U152. As stated above, Basques are mostly R-DF27. They all share R-P312 as the common ancestor. R-U152 and R-DF27 have a more recent common ancestor between R-P312 and their haplogroup. They all descend from Bell Beaker.

Irish have the highest frequency of R-L21. Basques have the highest frequency of R-DF27 carriers as a group. It's important to understand the distinction. Brittany also has a very high rate of R1b-P312 of about 80%.

There is no consensus on the Basque language.

Here are some DNA studies that you will want to familiarize yourself with:

García-Fernández, C., Lizano, E., Telford, M. et al. Y-chromosome target enrichment reveals rapid expansion of haplogroup R1b-DF27 in Iberia during the Bronze Age transition. Sci Rep 12, 20708 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-022-25200-7 

Villalba-Mouco, V., Oliart, C., Rihuete-Herrada, C. et al. Kinship practices in the early state El Argar society from Bronze Age Iberia. Sci Rep 12, 22415 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-022-25975-9

Vanessa Villalba-Mouco et al., Genomic transformation and social organization during the Copper Age–Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia.Sci. Adv.7,eabi7038(2021). https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.abi7038

Iñigo Olalde et al., The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years.Science363,1230-1234(2019). https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aav4040

Valdiosera, C. et al. Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 115, 3428–3433 (2018) https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1717762115

Villaescusa, P., Palencia-Madrid, L., Campaner, M.A. et al. Effective resolution of the Y chromosome sublineages of the Iberian haplogroup R1b-DF27 with forensic purposes. Int J Legal Med 133, 17–23 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1007/s00414-018-1936-z

Solé-Morata, N., Villaescusa, P., García-Fernández, C. et al. Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ. Sci Rep 7, 7341 (2017). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-017-07710-x 

Villaescusa, P. et al. Characterization of the Iberian Y chromosome haplogroup R-DF27 in Northern Spain. Forensic Sci. Int. Genet. 27, 142–148 (2017) https://doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2016.12.013

Valverde, L., Illescas, M., Villaescusa, P. et al. New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M269: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia. Eur J Hum Genet 24, 437–441 (2016). https://doi.org/10.1038/ejhg.2015.114

Günther, T. et al. Ancient genomes link early farmers from Atapuerca in Spain to modern-day Basques. Proc. Nat. Acad Sci. USA (2015) https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1509851112

Rocca RA, Magoon G, Reynolds DF, Krahn T, Tilroe VO, Op den Velde Boots PM, et al. (2012) Discovery of Western European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An Online Community Approach. PLoS ONE 7(7): e41634. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0041634

Begoña Martínez-Cruz, Christine Harmant, Daniel E. Platt, Wolfgang Haak, Jeremy Manry, Eva Ramos-Luis, David F. Soria-Hernanz, Frédéric Bauduer, Jasone Salaberria, Bernard Oyharçabal, Lluis Quintana-Murci, David Comas, the Genographic Consortium, Evidence of Pre-Roman Tribal Genetic Structure in Basques from Uniparentally Inherited Markers, Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 29, Issue 9, September 2012, Pages 2211–2222, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mss091

[alanarchae]

One thing i wonder, how did Basques ended up being so high in R1b-L51?

Could it be that Basque language could have in fact been one of the many Steppe languages distantly related to IE, any consensus on Basque language?

Also the Iberians prior to Latinization r awere supposed to speak a non IE language, yet they are high on R1b, what do we know of Iberian language, if there are any few traces of toponyms, hydronyms etc, etc.

How does Iberian/Basque R1b compares to other Celtic and/or Italic subclades?

It's a funny paradox, Basque is supposed to be the last standing non-IE language yet they are one of the highest R1b carriers as a

A large amount of the elevation of R1b in Basques is down to the explosion of late sub-subclades. If it wasn’t for those, Basque wouldn’t be especially high in R1b. Modern crude %s are utterly useless to infer deeptime things from. And the Basque Language and its Aquitanian ancestor are closest to Palaeo-Sardinian. Even the non R1b yDNA in Basque is linked to Sardinian DNA. No it’s safe to say Basque is very likely a neolithic farmer language or perhaps an early chalcolithic one predating bell beaker, P312, IE etc.

[alanarchae]

Unlike the Sredny Stog samples that are all I-699, 39% (n = 9) of the "Don Yamnaya" samples are R1b. Five of them are interesting in that they are of high enough quality that their "basal" calls in Table 1 may actually hold up. Two are M269, two are L23 and one is L51. Unfortunately no Sredny Stog samples from the Don have been tested yet (all tested samples are from Ukraine). 

There seems a v high chance that Don Sredy Stog will indeed be heavy in M269 and autosomally relevant to later Yamnaya. From an archaeological point of view Sredny Stog has been seen not only as a group that migrated west but also as a group that formed a vast chain of networking and exchange running all the way from Volga to the Balkans, likely in little relay like chains. It has always seemed to me that that would have some kind of geneflow impact as well as possibly linguistic one while the network lasted. Anthony and others seem to think Repin c. 3900-3300BC derived from Don Stedny Stog not in situ in the Volga etc. And of course one of the most popular theories is that Yamnaya in the archaeological cultural sense derived from Repin.

So although we lack samples to prove it, a lot of roads relating to M269 seem to hint the Don was important. But imo they still need a good deal more sampling to really be clear of the story. I am unaware of any DNA from Repin culture. I also note there is a paper in Russian that seems to dispute that Repin specifically originated  the Don then expanded east and west. However it’s fully in Russian and I can’t even work out what other areas they are suggesting  https://www.academia.edu/28691611/About_...n_English_

Don't know if this helps, it's from Google translate

Summing up our review, we can confidently state today that there is almost a consensus opinion of the scientific community about the identity of the early stage of the Yamnaya culture and the Repin type of monuments. Concept of A.T. Sinyuk's claim about the origin and long-term existence of Repin's monuments in the Middle Don did not find new confirmation. There is also no doubt about the presence of local roots in each regional massif of early Pit-grave monuments. The basis for their formation in the Volga region were monuments of the Khvalynsko-Berezhnovsky type, in the Middle Dnieper, Middle Don and Podonechye - late monuments of the Sredny Stog culture, in the Lower Dnieper and Azov regions - monuments of the Lower Mikhailovsky type. For the territory of the Lower Don region such monuments have not yet been established.

That sort of covers every base! I suppose from  a genetic-linguistic point of view the late Stedby Stog derived Repin of the middle Don, middle Dnieper and Podonechye is interesting.

[rmstevens2]

Re the Basques, ancient Y-DNA results from the Basque Country that predate Beaker (i.e., before c. 2500 BC) show that I2a was the predominant Y haplogroup back then. 

Here are three examples from Lipson et al (2017): Three skeletons from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in Spain, in the Basque Country, found with Bell Beaker pottery, all three non-R1b, with no steppe autosomal dna:

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3 

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3 

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b 
 
I cannot cite any sources for this, but from what I have read, the pre-Beaker Basques practiced a matrilocal marriage tradition, which means the groom went to live with his bride's family. That sort of system worked to preserve the bride's language and culture while simultaneously allowing for the introduction of outsider Y-DNA.

[ArmandoR1b]

Re the Basques, ancient Y-DNA results from the Basque Country that predate Beaker (i.e., before c. 2500 BC) show that I2a was the predominant Y haplogroup back then. 

Here are three examples from Lipson et al (2017): Three skeletons from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in Spain, in the Basque Country, found with Bell Beaker pottery, all three non-R1b, with no steppe autosomal dna:

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3 

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3 

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b  

Just to expand -

Those same specimens and more are in the SM of Iñigo Olalde et al., The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years.Science363,1230-1234(2019). https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aav4040 

The specific spreadsheet is at https://www.science.org/doi/suppl/10.112...s1-s5.xlsx

There are also a couple of G2a2a1 from Araba/Álava, Basque Country (which is the same province as El Sotillo).

All of those specimens as well as the rest from Iberia prior to Bell Beaker prove R-L51 subclades entered Iberia with Bell Beaker.

[R.Rocca]

There seems a v high chance that Don Sredy Stog will indeed be heavy in M269 and autosomally relevant to later Yamnaya. From an archaeological point of view Sredny Stog has been seen not only as a group that migrated west but also as a group that formed a vast chain of networking and exchange running all the way from Volga to the Balkans, likely in little relay like chains. It has always seemed to me that that would have some kind of geneflow impact as well as possibly linguistic one while the network lasted. Anthony and others seem to think Repin c. 3900-3300BC derived from Don Stedny Stog not in situ in the Volga etc. And of course one of the most popular theories is that Yamnaya in the archaeological cultural sense derived from Repin.

So although we lack samples to prove it, a lot of roads relating to M269 seem to hint the Don was important. But imo they still need a good deal more sampling to really be clear of the story. I am unaware of any DNA from Repin culture. I also note there is a paper in Russian that seems to dispute that Repin specifically originated  the Don then expanded east and west. However it’s fully in Russian and I can’t even work out what other areas they are suggesting  https://www.academia.edu/28691611/About_...n_English_

Don't know if this helps, it's from Google translate

Summing up our review, we can confidently state today that there is almost a consensus opinion of the scientific community about the identity of the early stage of the Yamnaya culture and the Repin type of monuments. Concept of A.T. Sinyuk's claim about the origin and long-term existence of Repin's monuments in the Middle Don did not find new confirmation. There is also no doubt about the presence of local roots in each regional massif of early Pit-grave monuments. The basis for their formation in the Volga region were monuments of the Khvalynsko-Berezhnovsky type, in the Middle Dnieper, Middle Don and Podonechye - late monuments of the Sredny Stog culture, in the Lower Dnieper and Azov regions - monuments of the Lower Mikhailovsky type. For the territory of the Lower Don region such monuments have not yet been established.

That sort of covers every base! I suppose from  a genetic-linguistic point of view the late Stedby Stog derived Repin of the middle Don, middle Dnieper and Podonechye is interesting.

If we look at the genetic components needed to make Sredny Stog "High" become the "Core" Yamnaya, you need a sprinkling of something slightly less Volga-like than Berezhnovka but more Volga-like than Remontnoye. It definitely came from somewhere to the east of the Sredny Stog Don area. While the data says the Volga cline, where we would expect Repin to be a little later than the samples in this paper, would be too Volga heavy, this would have been the path taken by the earliest Yamnaya expansion which is Afanasievo. So, Repin in that area could have been a contender for the addition needed to Sredny Stog, but impossible to tell without sampling.

[alanarchae]

Don't know if this helps, it's from Google translate

That sort of covers every base! I suppose from  a genetic-linguistic point of view the late Stedby Stog derived Repin of the middle Don, middle Dnieper and Podonechye is interesting.

If we look at the genetic components needed to make Sredny Stog "High" become the "Core" Yamnaya, you need a sprinkling of something slightly less Volga-like than Berezhnovka but more Volga-like than Remontnoye. It definitely came from somewhere to the east of the Sredny Stog Don area. While the data says the Volga cline, where we would expect Repin to be a little later than the samples in this paper, would be too Volga heavy, this would have been the path taken by the earliest Yamnaya expansion which is Afanasievo. So, Repin in that area could have been a contender for the addition needed to Sredny Stog, but impossible to tell without sampling.

it does feel like each paper is inching closer by elimination but it’s clear there is more work to be done. I wonder why they haven’t sampled Repin? I hope it’s not an issue with condition of bones/dna or destruction of most of the samples in some disaster! It’s quite odd that they haven’t given it’s quite a heavily discussed culture in relation to the origin of Yamnaya and Afanasievo from an archaeology point of view. It also seems to have been very widespread (perhaps in a patchy way) from the Volga/Ural to the Dnieper at its maximum extent. There seems to be disagreement on its origin point though. It got so widespread that it’s possible it’s not a genetically uniform group but then again they used to say that about Yamnaya. It’s an unknown until they test. I know it’s a matter of dispute whether Repin was a key root in Yamnaya but I do find the archaeological arguments for this quite strong. It’s also noticeable that Z2103 seemed to take off a few hundred years before the conventional 3300BC start date of Yamnaya culture. Repin is usually dated about 3900/3800-3300BC.

[alanarchae]

As an aside how do people feel about the origins of the Armenians? I’m thinking intrusion through the Caucasus c.2400BC or so from a Catacomb or Catacomb influenced group or some obscure yamnaya derived group pushed out by Catacomb. Some of those middie and late bronze age Armenians are about 25% steppe. And you do see the social change of fairly egalitarian kura-araxrs farmers in villages with simple burials to rich kurgans and much more ephemeral settlement around that time. You have the Yamnaya-like DNA arriving in Greece around the same time. Catacomb has traditionally been suggested as an origin of the Greek language. Perhaps the two were neighbours on the steppe around 2500BC and got pushed west into Greece and south into Armenia respectively.

[R.Rocca]

That sort of covers every base! I suppose from  a genetic-linguistic point of view the late Stedby Stog derived Repin of the middle Don, middle Dnieper and Podonechye is interesting.

If we look at the genetic components needed to make Sredny Stog "High" become the "Core" Yamnaya, you need a sprinkling of something slightly less Volga-like than Berezhnovka but more Volga-like than Remontnoye. It definitely came from somewhere to the east of the Sredny Stog Don area. While the data says the Volga cline, where we would expect Repin to be a little later than the samples in this paper, would be too Volga heavy, this would have been the path taken by the earliest Yamnaya expansion which is Afanasievo. So, Repin in that area could have been a contender for the addition needed to Sredny Stog, but impossible to tell without sampling.

it does feel like each paper is inching closer by elimination but it’s clear there is more work to be done. I wonder why they haven’t sampled Repin? I hope it’s not an issue with condition of bones/dna or destruction of most of the samples in some disaster! It’s quite odd that they haven’t given it’s quite a heavily discussed culture in relation to the origin of Yamnaya and Afanasievo from an archaeology point of view. It also seems to have been very widespread (perhaps in a patchy way) from the Volga/Ural to the Dnieper at its maximum extent. There seems to be disagreement on its origin point though. It got so widespread that it’s possible it’s not a genetically uniform group but then again they used to say that about Yamnaya. It’s an unknown until they test. I know it’s a matter of dispute whether Repin was a key root in Yamnaya but I do find the archaeological arguments for this quite strong. It’s also noticeable that Z2103 seemed to take off a few hundred years before the conventional 3300BC start date of Yamnaya culture. Repin is usually dated about 3900/3800-3300BC.

The invasion of Ukraine started two years ago and I fear that collaboration with Russian scientists will be impacted and we may not see Repin samples for quite some time. This study has been years in the making. As it is, the accompanying paper on the North Pontic had all the Ukraine researchers and the Lazaridis one all the Russian researchers. It is awkward that it wasn't just one study. Harvard went as far as to use the Ukraine term "Serednii Stih" instead of what the world knows it as: Sredny Stog.

[R.Rocca]

Something interesting:

The R1a-M417 branch, which has 39 SNPs, formed 6700 BC but has a TMRCA of 3400 BC, which would be early Yamnaya.

On the other hand, the R1b-M269, which has a whopping 107 SNPs formed 11,300 BC with a TMRCA of 4400 BC which would be during the Sredny Stog period. The same for some of M269's child clades:

R-L23 formed 4400 BC, TMRCA 4100 BC = Sredny Stog Period
...R-L51 formed 4100 BC, TMRCA 3700 BC = Sredny Stog Period
...R-Z2103 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3400 BC = Late Sredny Stog / Early Yamnaya

[ArmandoR1b]

Something interesting:

The R1a-M417 branch, which has 39 SNPs, formed 6700 BC but has a TMRCA of 3400 BC, which would be early Yamnaya.

On the other hand, the R1b-M269, which has a whopping 107 SNPs formed 11,300 BC with a TMRCA of 4400 BC which would be during the Sredny Stog period. The same for some of M269's child clades:

R-L23 formed 4400 BC, TMRCA 4100 BC = Sredny Stog Period
...R-L51 formed 4100 BC, TMRCA 3700 BC = Sredny Stog Period
...R-Z2103 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3400 BC = Late Sredny Stog / Early Yamnaya

I had put basically the same information into a spreadsheet of my own about a week ago but I used the FTDNA Discover dates

   

edit: I have now added the dates for Repin also 3900–3300 BCE which means P310, L52, P311 would have been part of that culture but L23 would have preceded Repin by at least 350 years.

edit2: So this is the timeline based on what has been posted in this thread, the dates at FTDNA Discover, Lazaridis et al. 2024 and etc. This is not a statement of how I think it went. I am just trying to understand the history.

L23 (4350-4250 BCE) > Sredni Stog (4200–3700 BCE) > L51 & Z2103 (4250-4000 BCE) > P310, L52, P311 & M12149 (4000-3300 BCE) > Repin (3900–3300 BCE) > Core Yamnaya Founder (~3800-3400 BCE) > Z2106 & L151,L11 > Yamnaya & Afanasievo > P312 > Bell Beaker

[R.Rocca]

Something interesting:

The R1a-M417 branch, which has 39 SNPs, formed 6700 BC but has a TMRCA of 3400 BC, which would be early Yamnaya.

On the other hand, the R1b-M269, which has a whopping 107 SNPs formed 11,300 BC with a TMRCA of 4400 BC which would be during the Sredny Stog period. The same for some of M269's child clades:

R-L23 formed 4400 BC, TMRCA 4100 BC = Sredny Stog Period
...R-L51 formed 4100 BC, TMRCA 3700 BC = Sredny Stog Period
...R-Z2103 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3400 BC = Late Sredny Stog / Early Yamnaya

I had put basically the same information into a spreadsheet of my own about a week ago but I used the FTDNA Discover dates

edit: I have now added the dates for Repin also 3900–3300 BCE which means P310, L52, P311 would have been part of that culture but L23 would have preceded Repin by at least 350 years.

edit2: So this is the timeline based on what has been posted in this thread, the dates at FTDNA Discover, Lazaridis et al. 2024 and etc. This is not a statement of how I think it went. I am just trying to understand the history.

L23 (4350-4250 BCE) > Sredni Stog (4200–3700 BCE) > L51 & Z2103 (4250-4000 BCE) > P310, L52, P311 & M12149 (4000-3300 BCE) > Repin (3900–3300 BCE) > Core Yamnaya Founder (~3800-3400 BCE) > Z2106 & L151,L11 > Yamnaya & Afanasievo > P312 > Bell Beaker

The real surprise to me is that R1a-M417 looks like it was a very minor clan that was limping along even during the Sredny Stog period. It's big expansion did not come until the Early Yamnaya and subsequent Corded Ware periods. The TMRCA dates align with its scarcity in these new data sets.

[rmstevens2]

The invasion of Ukraine started two years ago and I fear that collaboration with Russian scientists will be impacted and we may not see Repin samples for quite some time. This study has been years in the making. As it is, the accompanying paper on the North Pontic had all the Ukraine researchers and the Lazaridis one all the Russian researchers. It is awkward that it wasn't just one study. Harvard went as far as to use the Ukraine term "Serednii Stih" instead of what the world knows it as: Sredny Stog.

Not to mention "Dnipro" for Dnieper (pronounced Dnyepper).

[rmstevens2]

Off topic, but on the subject of the Ukrainian language versus Russian - and the two are extremely close - one of the funniest things is the difference in g versus h in the two languages.

My wife, Galina, who is half Russian and half Ukrainian, gets called "Hala" by her Ukrainian cousins and "Gala" by her Russian cousins. Russians call Adolf Hitler "Gitler" (no kidding), while Ukrainians call him "Hitler". 

My wife's mother is Ukrainian - sort of. She was born in Ivano-Frankivsk, which bounced around between Ukraine and Poland. Her side of the family has a lot of Polish ancestry. My mother-in-law's mother was a Kaminski, which is a Polish surname. My mother-in-law grew up speaking Ukrainian and Polish. She also speaks German - English not so much.

[alanarchae]

Something interesting:

The R1a-M417 branch, which has 39 SNPs, formed 6700 BC but has a TMRCA of 3400 BC, which would be early Yamnaya.

On the other hand, the R1b-M269, which has a whopping 107 SNPs formed 11,300 BC with a TMRCA of 4400 BC which would be during the Sredny Stog period. The same for some of M269's child clades:

R-L23 formed 4400 BC, TMRCA 4100 BC = Sredny Stog Period
...R-L51 formed 4100 BC, TMRCA 3700 BC = Sredny Stog Period
...R-Z2103 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3400 BC = Late Sredny Stog / Early Yamnaya

I had put basically the same information into a spreadsheet of my own about a week ago but I used the FTDNA Discover dates

edit: I have now added the dates for Repin also 3900–3300 BCE which means P310, L52, P311 would have been part of that culture but L23 would have preceded Repin by at least 350 years.

edit2: So this is the timeline based on what has been posted in this thread, the dates at FTDNA Discover, Lazaridis et al. 2024 and etc. This is not a statement of how I think it went. I am just trying to understand the history.

L23 (4350-4250 BCE) > Sredni Stog (4200–3700 BCE) > L51 & Z2103 (4250-4000 BCE) > P310, L52, P311 & M12149 (4000-3300 BCE) > Repin (3900–3300 BCE) > Core Yamnaya Founder (~3800-3400 BCE) > Z2106 & L151,L11 > Yamnaya & Afanasievo > P312 > Bell Beaker

The real surprise to me is that R1a-M417 looks like it was a very minor clan that was limping along even during the Sredny Stog period. It's big expansion did not come until the Early Yamnaya and subsequent Corded Ware periods. The TMRCA dates align with its scarcity in these new data sets.

And there seems to often be a delay of a number of centuries between TMRCA of a clade and visibility in the ancient DNA. Not surprising I suppose because the chances of spotting the first  couple of centuries when it’s growling from a founder is low